Need Advice (Long)

[wades_keys]

lol, this week, I'm the asshole... It's funny, at practices lately, I start in about how {censored}ty we sound and the guys just go: not again

In all honesty though - that isn't a good way to make a band tighter - constantly pointing the finger at other's mistakes.

 

You've got to find a way to be tactful - remember, you are not the dictator, even if what you are saying is 100% correct - people will not tolerate being dictated to.

 

Learn from this - you have played a part in it as well; sometimes it's best to keep your mouth shut - you know, the old "if you don't have anything nice to say" deal.

 

Pick your battles.

 

I don't know where you live, or what your background is....but - before leaving these guys behind, think long and hard about who you really are (are you a known musician on the scene, or just a couch warrior) and make sure you know just where you stand in terms of what YOU bring to the table.

 

I hate to rain on the parade, but in your situation - you're talking about getting back in the mix after many years off - you have no PA, you provide nothing for the band but your ability.

 

There are dozens of guitarists in your area just like you - so what makes you think you'll be able to do better right now?

 

Be realistic. IMO, even though these guys "suck" - it's where you are right now. Find a way to make it suck a little less - take the time, then use this band as a vehicle to get out there and gig. That way you'll at least get a chance to know venue owners and other musicians.

 

You can always of course try to get something better going - but in your position I highly doubt that will happen.

 

Get yourself a PA and practice space and you'll have a better chance - but still, remember that you are a nobody on the scene - no one knows you...

[Lee Flier]

In all honesty though - that isn't a good way to make a band tighter - constantly pointing the finger at other's mistakes. You've got to find a way to be tactful - remember, you are not the dictator, even if what you are saying is 100% correct - people will not tolerate being dictated to.

 

 

True, but again, if he were playing with the right people he wouldn't need to say that. If they sounded {censored}ty, they'd know and they'd do something about it. If anybody in my band sucks at a particular practice because they haven't done their homework, that person is the first to say so: "Oh, sorry, I'm not happy with what I'm doing. I didn't have as much time as I wanted to go over the song at home." Anybody can have a bad week, in 7 years. But it's always remedied by the next practice.

[wades_keys]

 

True, but again, if he were playing with the right people he wouldn't need to say that. If they sounded {censored}ty, they'd know and they'd do something about it. If anybody in my band sucks at a particular practice because they haven't done their homework, that person is the first to say so: "Oh, sorry, I'm not happy with what I'm doing. I didn't have as much time as I wanted to go over the song at home." Anybody can have a bad week, in 7 years. But it's always remedied by the next practice.

 

But where he is - this is what he's going to have to deal with.

 

Especially if it is a smaller town without many musical venues.

 

That's how it works around here - you've got to have a rep from playing in known bands if you want to have a chance in hell of getting a solid band going quickly.

 

Face it - he's a guitarist with no reputation, no PA, no strong vocal ability, and no rehearsal space.

 

Guys like that are a dime a dozen.

 

From what I'm hearing - it sounds like the bassist's RH fingers are out of shape - he's digging in too hard and inconsistently(been there, done that).

 

I bet the volume has gone up and he's digging in to get more volume - wonder why he sounded good at the audition and not so much now?

 

Playing in a band requires physical conditioning - drummer's and bass players deal with this the most.

 

If you're gonna get guys off the couch and into a band rehearsal space, then this is what you will deal with.

 

OP, tell your bassist to get a compressor - it'll even out his attack a little.

 

Lighter gauge strings and a lighter finger attack will work too.

 

And turn the damn volume down.

[Funkwire]

lol, this week, I'm the asshole... It's funny, at practices lately, I start in about how {censored}ty we sound and the guys just go: not again

You know, there's absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting to get together and jam on some tunes and be satisfied getting better 'down the road'. If that's all you want to do.

It doesn't sound like that's what you want, and you made that clear to both of them. Maybe you are being the a**hole guitarist, but I really don't think so. Like you, I need to know that everyone I'm working with is pulling their weight, working toward a common goal, and backing up what they say they're going to do.

After listening to the tape you made, my advice is to run, not walk, away from both of these guys. You will not be happy with this level of playing.

[wades_keys]

After listening to the tape you made, my advice is to run, not walk, away from both of these guys. You will not be happy with this level of playing.

Sure - and I bet there's just a million openings for an unproven guitarist with no reputation on the scene whatsoever.

 

Why not try to find ways to make it suck a little less, so you can get out there in the mix and get some gigs and credibility under the belt?

 

At least then when you audition, you'll have a freaking leg to stand on: "What band were you in?" "Where did you gig"

 

"Uh, I was in a band but we broke up before we gigged because I wasn't happy with their playing"

 

"Okay. Thanks for coming by. We'll call you"

[Funkwire]

Sure - and I bet there's just a million openings for an unproven guitarist with no reputation on the scene whatsoever.

Maybe, maybe not...but the OP already stated he doesn't expect to 'make it'. He wants to play music, and he has expectations of how he wants it to sound. And it's not going to happen with these guys.

And don't you roll your eyes at me this early on a Monday morning, young man!

[wades_keys]

 

Maybe, maybe not...but the OP already stated he doesn't expect to 'make it'. He wants to play music, and he has expectations of how he wants it to sound. And it's not going to happen with these guys.

 

What does "making it" have to do with anything?

 

Finding competent and seasoned drummers and bass players can only happen one way - you get them from working bands.

 

Working bands are usually not interested in bringing a basement player into the mix.

 

Guitarists are a dime a dozen - I heard nothing special in that Godsmack track - there's a zillion guitarists out there that can play that one finger drop D stuff all day long.

 

And hey - your perspective may be the correct one for the OP.

 

None of us can really know his situation and locale.

 

My perspective comes from a very similar situation - I never had time to play in bands though I always took music seriously as a hobby.

 

At age 36 or so I started trying to get in bands to play out, and let me tell you it's real easy to find other players that "suck" right off the bat, dropping drumsticks, inconsistent attack on the bass, etc....

 

What I've found is that these folks may actually be really good players, but just out of practice and out of shape.

 

You've got to rehearse for many months not to learn the songs per se but to get the stamina of the drums and bass up to snuff.

 

I've also found that around here, unless you are a name player, you are NOT going to be able to walk into an audition with your guitar and play drop D nu-metal and expect to have a competent gigging band go gaga over you.

 

This type of music is on it's way out, and there are dozens of such guitarists, many of whom have name recognition, looking for work.

[flemtone]

It's better to be an unknown guitarist without a band than to be associated with a band that sounds like ass. Since you went looking for the drummer, learned tunes, got the gig and brought in the bassist, then you're 'de facto' the band's leader, unless you've all worked out another arrangement. That entitles you to say whatever you like to any of the other bandmembers. It's up to them to listen to you and take it for whatever they think it's worth.

Excuses about meds, time, whatever - those are HIS problems, not yours or the drummer's. There's no reason for his problems to affect the band, especially since he committed to put the effort in. Nothing from nothing, but a 'good' bassist will learn the freaking parts. Without that ability, he's a wanker - nothing more, nothing less. Technical ability is wonderful but, without practical application, it's nothing more than ability vs. talent.

It says something when you're able to get a good response from an audience at an open mic when you're a 2-piece. All it took you to achieve crickets from that same audience is the "bassist".

Cut him loose and, if the drummer refuses to grow a spine, drop him as well. You'd be better to start your quest for good musicians again as opposed to being associated with mediocrity. Don't let yourself get painted with the same brush.

'bendafender' has it exactly correct. "Life is too short to be in a bad band." That should be the trademark phrase of this forum.

[wades_keys]

It's better to be an unknown guitarist without a band than to be associated with a band that sounds like ass.

Maybe - unless you're really serious about playing out and establishing a rep as a quality sideman that can learn quickly and be a good fit for a working band.

 

The easy option is to quit.

 

The not so easy option is to sit back and ask yourself where you fit in the scheme of things, and what do you truly have to offer a working band.

 

It's unrealistic to come off the bench and expect that other off the bench players are going to be ready to hit the stage in a short amount of time.

 

Even once great players (especially drummers and bassists) need a little work to get their stamina and chops back up to snuff.

 

It's easy for a guitarist to get to a decent point playing wise - and it's easy for guitarists to be the first to bail because the vox, drums or bass aren't where they want em to be.

 

I see this all the time.

 

The tougher aspect is finding a way to make it work.

 

That bass player obviously has some kind of skills - he sounded good on the audition, right?

 

It sounds to me like the guy has stamina issues and is inconsistent with his fingerstyle - he's digging in too hard.....

 

So, find out WHY - I bet the band is way too loud.

 

bendafender' has it exactly correct. "Life is too short to be in a bad band." That should be the trademark phrase of this forum.

Life is too short to expect that you will magically join a great band when you are just another off-the-couch guitarist who hasn't been in a band in years.

 

 

As to the throw the bassist to the curb deal: did you listen to the clip? The guy wasn't hitting bad notes - but his timing and attack are suspect.

 

His chops aren't there - this could be because his rig is underpowered, band is too loud, and/or his fingers just don't have the strength and endurance just yet. If he was playing bad notes, or not playing at all in spots, I'd say can the bum.

 

But the guy knows the progression - his technique is just not up to speed.

 

What do you expect from a couch warrior?

 

Give it time man, or prepare to be one of those clowns that I see on the want ads month in and month out, still searching but never finding....

 

(always guitarists too, imagine that. The least in demand but the first to bail and the first to assume that they will find a better gig. Good luck trying is all I'm saying.)

[Kramerguy]

hey wade, I appreciate your feedback, but you are painting me with the wrong brush, so to speak.

 

Of course you heard nothing special in the track I posted. I'm trying to play a guitar line to a drummer that cannot keep proper tempo, and a bassist who plays the wrong lines, and even hits the wrong notes for the lines he's doing. The entire solo line was in the wrong key, and I was drowned out by the bass. What do you expect from a microphone in the middle of the room, anyways? I posted that specifically to point out how the bassist did NOT practice the song.

 

I may be a nobody in my area, but I have been the implied manager of the band since day 1, as I'm the only one aggressively networking with other bands and musicians, the only one setting up auditions, the only one seeking gigs outside of open mics, and incidentally, the only one who shows up at practices who is actually prepared.

 

You sound a lot like my bandmates, "at your age, you have no options"...

 

Bull{censored}.

 

I just made an arrangement to play with a regional act. Glad I didn't sell myself short, listen to my bandmates, nor listen to my parents. I've been told half my life that I can't do it. I have no dilusions about the odds of making a living off it, starting out at my age, but at least if I make it or not, I can say I gave it my best shot.

 

Lee and a few other's here are absolutely right- the only limits you have are the ones you impose on yourself. My guitar playing over the last year has grown by leaps and bounds, and that's at 25 years of playing. There's always room to grow, whether it's musically, or professionally. See you at the top.

 

 

Life is too short to expect that you will magically join a great band when you are just another off-the-couch guitarist who hasn't been in a band in years.

 

 

Deserving of a special reply-

I'm better than (edit) most in these parts. One clip of a crappy song is all you need to convict me of bad guitar, but I guarantee I can blow the socks off most. I had a guitarist that could solo like yngwie and he left the band in shame b/c my rhythm playing left him in the dust.

[Kramerguy]

Sure - and I bet there's just a million openings for an unproven guitarist with no reputation on the scene whatsoever. Why not try to find ways to make it suck a little less, so you can get out there in the mix and get some gigs and credibility under the belt? At least then when you audition, you'll have a freaking leg to stand on: "What band were you in?" "Where did you gig" "Uh, I was in a band but we broke up before we gigged because I wasn't happy with their playing" "Okay. Thanks for coming by. We'll call you"

on a side note, please read the posts before making assumptions. We've been hosting open mic nights at a local bar since April. My problem is that we're getting worse every week. That's not progress.

And no, I'm not unproven...

[wades_keys]

Glad it worked out for ya man.

So you went from a basement act that played one open mic, to being in a "regional act", in one day?

Seems a little incredible but hey - rock on bro.

[wades_keys]

on a side note, please read the posts before making assumptions. We've been hosting open mic nights at a local bar since April. My problem is that we're getting worse every week. That's not progress. And no, I'm not unproven...

Dude - if you already knew the answer then why the hell did you ask the question?

By your own words you haven't been in a band in years....

By your own words the best musicians you found at this point were sub-standard.

WTF am I supposed to think?

I don't know what world you live in or part of the country, but like I said around here guitarists that are much better than you, btw are a dime a dozen.

But I ain't trying to slam you - trying to get you to see another side, not necessarily the right one.

But hey, you already know the answers, so at this point I can't help but think that you're trolling.

Good day sir.

[Inigomontoya]

"I'm better than anyone else in these parts. One clip of a crappy song is all you need to convict me of bad guitar, but I guarantee I can blow the socks off most. I had a guitarist that could solo like yngwie and he left the band in shame b/c my rhythm playing left him in the dust."

Can't recall any ridiculously talented musicians my area who needed to tell people they were, and never met any musicians who told people they were incredible who ended up throwing down at the level they proclaimed. Just sayin... telling people you are great will do you a disservice if your goal is to convince them that you are in fact great.

That being said, I did think some of the drumming was a bit horrendous, I wouldn't stick with the drummer unless he stitched a metronome onto his arm. I live in a relatively small city, about the size of a place like Madison, WI and there are 5 or 6 incredible drummers in their twenties that i'm familiar with, bound to be many more. I have to believe that there are some where you are from too, snag one. Invite them over for a jam, keep calling them back even when they flake out and when they do finally come over, make sure that you throw down at the level that you proclaim you can and they should be yours.

[Kramerguy]

Well I was asking some serious questions and got a lot of good serious answers. I went and contacted many people I've been networking with over the last few months and stumbled upon this regional thing. Nothing is carved in stone, so I'm hesitant to even discuss what might not even be.

 

Then wade came along, made presumptions about me, and each one of his posts got slightly nastier than the last. By the time I actually read any of them, he was insulting me

 

Wade: You just typed that I played ONE open mic, when i CLEARLY stated that we've been hosting them since APRIL. Please stop making up stuff as you go, your posts are dripping with sarcasm and dislike, which is why I responded the way I did.

 

Inigo: You are absolutely correct. Nobody worth their mettle needs to brag about their skills. I allowed myself to get sucked into that mentality and I apologize for that. I know better and just let the heat of the discussion rob me of my better sense.

[Stagebandit]

I may be a nobody in my area, but I have been the implied manager of the band since day 1, as I'm the only one aggressively networking with other bands and musicians, the only one setting up auditions, the only one seeking gigs outside of open mics, and incidentally, the only one who shows up at practices who is actually prepared.

This is why most people here are telling you to start over. If you can assemble players and get gigs, you are the leader of the band. More importantly, if you can get decent paying gigs, you can hire musicians who are much better than you.

There is no reason to waste time with players who aren't on the same page or don't have the same work ethic, especially at your age!

In Wades defense, his negativity stems from the fact that somewhere down the line he was {censored} on by a guitar player who didn't think he was up to muster yet. Had he read your OP more objectively, he would have realized that you weren't intentionally being a dick and that it's not your responsibility to wait around for another guy to learn his craft.

Much respect Wades, but I've gotta think that you wouldn't want someone jumping to conclusions about your abilities based on one song recording.

[Kramerguy]

This is why most people here are telling you to start over. If you can assemble players and get gigs, you are the leader of the band. More importantly, if you can get decent paying gigs, you can hire musicians who are much better than you. There is no reason to waste time with players who aren't on the same page or don't have the same work ethic, especially at your age! In Wades defense, his negativity stems from the fact that somewhere down the line he was {censored} on by a guitar player who didn't think he was up to muster yet. Had he read your OP more objectively, he would have realized that you weren't intentionally being a dick and that it's not your responsibility to wait around for another guy to learn his craft. Much respect Wades, but I've gotta think that you wouldn't want someone jumping to conclusions about your abilities based on one song recording.

And with the discussion here, I was encouraged, and reinforced in my belief that I was selling myself short. This thread has really helped me make some key decisions. I will not be outright quitting my band and giving anyone the finger, thats for sure. I really don't see things working out in the long run, but we will have a sit down and discuss band direction and preparedness, and if we're still not on the same pages, or things once again go south, I will respectfully quit, fulfill our remaining obligations (gigs), and shake their hands and bid them adieu.

I fully intend to be adult about it all.

And wade: sorry some guitarist {censored} all over your ego dude. BTW: your lead guitarist sucks, and the vocals are horrible. Get rid of them :poke:

[Lee Flier]

Finding competent and seasoned drummers and bass players can only happen one way - you get them from working bands. Working bands are usually not interested in bringing a basement player into the mix.

 

 

I beg to differ. If my own bandmates had had that attitude, I wouldn't have a band. I didn't play out for about 5 years before my band got together, and I was rusty. But I still went to check out other working bands and ended up recruiting two of my favorite players. They understood that I hadn't played out in awhile and that it would take me a few months to get my chops back. At the same time, I worked my ass off and learned a whole bunch of songs in a short time, and we were able to start gigging quickly.

 

Guitarists may be a dime a dozen, but guitarists who play the right style for the song, are highly motivated and have the ability to learn a lot of stuff quickly, and have a good work ethic/personality/no drama are still NOT a dime a dozen.

[way2fat]

I did set up 2 mics and record our previous practice last week. http://www.box.net/shared/jvsmah78k4

 

 

What kind of response did you get from your bandmates when you shared this recording with them?

[wades_keys]

At the same time, I worked my ass off and learned a whole bunch of songs in a short time, and we were able to start gigging quickly.

 

Yeah, I do that too - the lack of ethic from the bass player is disturbing...

 

BUT - maybe, just MAYBE, he's laying back waiting to hear the potential for putting in any work - some cats are good but they don't commit until things start sounding good.

 

As always when I post on this board - y'all need to keep in mind that I'm not arguing with anybody - just giving a different perspective that may or may not apply.

 

Plus, since I came off teh bench myself with some rusty musicians, I thought my input might be a little more valid than some of you guys/gals who have been in working bands for years.

[wades_keys]

What kind of response did you get from your bandmates when you shared this recording with them?

 

He's moved on obviously - onward and upward.

 

Why take the time to make something happen when you can bail at the first sign of things not going your way?

 

WE've all seen this - sometimes it works, other times it just leads to burned bridges and no band at all.

[wades_keys]

In Wades defense, his negativity stems from the fact that somewhere down the line he was {censored} on by a guitar player who didn't think he was up to muster yet. Had he read your OP more objectively, he would have realized that you weren't intentionally being a dick and that it's not your responsibility to wait around for another guy to learn his craft. Much respect Wades, but I've gotta think that you wouldn't want someone jumping to conclusions about your abilities based on one song recording.

No man, see now you're jumping to conclusions about me.

It's unrealistic to think that bench players, especially drummers and bassists, will be 100% solid in a short time.

No one ever {censored} on me - they didn't have to - I'm my own worst critic and I knew I could be better and I demanded of myself to improve in certain areas is what happened.

Guitar is easy to get up to speed on - it's not that physically demanding compared to bass or drums. Playing in the bedroom is NOT the same as being able to do a whole night of music consistently.

Even pro bands like RUSH had to rehearse for an entire summer to get Neil Peart back up to speed and "shake the rust off" after his hiatus.

Y'all are fooling yourselves if you think it doesn't work that way - "Sounds good enough" and all of that.....

How long have you been actively playing dude? A few years now right?

What about Lee, or the other posters here - yeah, all of y'all have been at it consistently for a little while.

My perspective is a little bit closer to where the OP is coming from - we all like to think we're pro and sound "good" - the truth is a little more complicated than that usually.

Carry on.

[Kramerguy]

What kind of response did you get from your bandmates when you shared this recording with them?

 

 

 

To date, both have refused to listen to the demo(s).. a variety of excuses is all Ive gotten.

[Kramerguy]

He's moved on obviously - onward and upward. Why take the time to make something happen when you can bail at the first sign of things not going your way? WE've all seen this - sometimes it works, other times it just leads to burned bridges and no band at all.

 

 

 

For the last goddam time, will you STOP misquoting my actions. I'm not some idiot who picked up a guitar after 10 years and expected everyone to kiss my ass. I was 5-7 years rusty and bought all new gear and practiced my ass off for over a year and got my chops back (better than ever) before I even STARTED looking for a band.

 

Either you intentionally lied about how many gigs we've played to try and prove your point, AND you intentionally lied about me "moving on" to prove your point, OR you need to learn how to read a post before replying; consider taking reading classes and/or kindly leave the discussion. You are pretending to add the "other" perspective to the discussion, but instead you are polluting it with misconceptions and revisionist details.

 

I said I was sticking with the band and going to try to work it out (alongside taking on a side project that looks promising). Try to keep up if you intend on "contributing" to this discussion. So far, nothing you have typed has been much of a contribution.

 

Lee and others - Thanks for your help with this, I did take a lot of good things from this discussion.

[way2fat]

To date, both have refused to listen to the demo(s).. a variety of excuses is all Ive gotten.

 

 

Wow. No reason you can't all stay friends, but there's no sense playing with anyone who isn't willing to be honest with themselves.