Need Advice (Long)

[Kramerguy]

Wow. No reason you can't all stay friends, but there's no sense playing with anyone who isn't willing to be honest with themselves.

 

 

well overall, the bass player has been with us for 6 weeks, and at 2 practices a week, he's come unprepared to all of them, with exception to his initial audition. He is one hell of a bull{censored}er and difficult to argue with. I'm more of a ponderer, so I have difficulty arguing with his bs; but I'm also a cynic so I see right through it.

 

Before he joined, myslef and the drummer had a helluva solid duo going. We nailed every song we played with few flaws. Since this guy joined us, he's slowly screwed up all our rhythms'. I follow the drums and the bass follows me (you can hear him 1/2 a step behind in most songs b/c he's following me).

 

Which is why I say we're getting worse and worse every week.

 

We have paid gigs coming up and I'm worried.

[flemtone]

How long have you been actively playing dude? A few years now right? What about Lee, or the other posters here - yeah, all of y'all have been at it consistently for a little while. My perspective is a little bit closer to where the OP is coming from - we all like to think we're pro and sound "good" - the truth is a little more complicated than that usually. Carry on.

 

 

The point is that Diatribe has put together a band, gotten gigs, learned material, had a good thing going with just the drummer and, for some strange reason, a brick of a bassist came on board with good potential and no impetus to contribute. If they're moving at different speeds, then Diatribe has two choices: slow down and wait and see if this clump of seaweed decides to improve his work ethic, or move on.

 

It's pretty pretentious of you to think that anyone who's been playing consistently has never had off-time, has never had times when other things in their lives have been a greater priority than gigging - we all have. Even, apparently, Neil Peart. Rust happens, but rust slows you down, it doesn't stop you from knowing how to play. It's pretty obvious that the 'bassist' in Diatribe's band is not just rusty, but incompetent and unmotivated.

 

It's not the excuses that count - it's what you bring to the table consistently and, like you said, how honest you are with yourself. You're not the only one who can be objective, but you may consider that others have already had these conversations with themselves.

[Chip Stewart]

Guitar is easy to get up to speed on - it's not that physically demanding compared to bass or drums. Playing in the bedroom is NOT the same as being able to do a whole night of music consistently.

 

 

This is obviously written by a bass player. I play bass, guitar, and drums (and also do vocals), and I can sight read a bass part. I can not sight read a guitar or drum part. Guitar and drums take some time to get a song up to speed. If anyone should be able to get up to speed quickly, it should be the bass player.

[wades_keys]

This is obviously written by a bass player. I play bass, guitar, and drums (and also do vocals), and I can sight read a bass part. I can not sight read a guitar or drum part. Guitar and drums take some time to get a song up to speed. If anyone should be able to get up to speed quickly, it should be the bass player.

Yeah, cuz the bass only has to thump on root notes all night and it doesn't matter how you hit the strings as long as it makes a sound, right?

 

I'm talking about endurance stamina and technique here - not the fundamentals of making a rumble, but the finer points and nuances of playing bass WELL and consistently.

 

And yeah, that bassist sounds like a lazy ass - but ya know, none of use are there so we are all gonna see this situation as it relates to OUR experience, right?

 

I was trying to give a more BALANCED perspective from someone who has been in a similar situation very recently - similar in the sense that my band members weren't "Active duty" players when we started.

 

If you've been playing in bands for a while, this stuff no doubt comes easily and naturally to you now - as it does for me at this point.

 

And if you think that "rust" can't be knocked off, I would submit my own band as an example to the contrary.....

 

I can post our early live demos from late last year and let you hear how they compare to what we are doing NOW, and I guaran dam tee that you will hear a marked improvement.

 

The point I'm REALLY trying to make is this - if the POTENTIAL is there, sometimes it pays to find a way to manage the weaknesses, lead by example, and GUIDE your band to a better place.

 

It's become the norm on this forum to advise people to walk or run away from a situation after hearing a live clip that sounds "off".

 

Well, that is sometimes the best way - BUT - it's not the ONLY way, and it pays to recognize potential and sometimes stick it out.

 

Even if things don't quite work out, you'll get a lot of good experience in people and band management that you can take down the road later.

 

You all seem to falling back on the ideal function of a band: put a bunch of great motivated individual players in a room and everything will fall into place.

 

That's bull{censored} - there's a lot more to having a tight band then that.

 

The tightest bands I know of have been together for years - they stuck it out.

 

It's naive to assume that those bands were always that tight, though their members will swear to the contrary.

 

If that were true, then they should have no problems promoting themselves based off of their very earliest recordings - hell, everyone showed up ready to play and knowing their parts - so by your definition it should be tight as hell and ready to go, right?

[Stagebandit]

In my opinion, this boils down to talent vs experience and the ratio of one to another.

Everyone will agree that players have different levels of experience and ability. If Diatribe and the drummer have been working hard to get their parts down and have been working with a bassist twice a week for six weeks and the bassist still can't find his groove in the mix, then one of two things is happening. Either the bassist isn't practicing enough at home or he isn't good enough to hang. If he were talented enough, he would've picked it up by now, right?

Would anybody here stick with a player who consistently stayed at the same level as when you auditioned him/her? Or worse, like the OP stated, gets less stable with practice.

Wades,
I don't think your band would be enjoying so much improvement if even one of the critical players had not worked his ass off to get better and tighter. I suspect if one person was obviously holding your group back, you would agree more with the idea of cutting your loses.

Unless, of course, you were that guy.:poke:

[Janx]

I think Wade has made a few valid points. I think the key is, you can leave, or as wade seems to suggest, find alternatives to making it suck less.

I know a lot of people are down on tabs, especially off the internet. But consider this: bass guy shows up to first practice with bad tabs. Why is he using bad tabs at the next practice. Y'all should be FIXING them as you practice, and find errors.

Turn rehearsal into practice, because that's the only way the bassist is going to practice in a verifiable way.

If you can't fix it, then by all means, dump the problem person, or leave.

But certainly try positive ways to improve his skills (if you can learn to help somebody else get better, you will be better for it).

[Lee Flier]

 

The point I'm REALLY trying to make is this - if the POTENTIAL is there, sometimes it pays to find a way to manage the weaknesses, lead by example, and GUIDE your band to a better place. It's become the norm on this forum to advise people to walk or run away from a situation after hearing a live clip that sounds "off".

 

 

FWIW, I didn't listen to the clip. I didn't have to. The issue is the bass player's litany of excuses, defensiveness and lack of a worth ethic. I'm willing to stick it out with somebody who's rusty while they build their chops back up - and as mentioned, my current bandmates did the same for me. But if six weeks had gone by and I was still giving excuses as to why I hadn't learned songs, and the band had been going downhill instead of making progress, I'm sure my bandmates wouldn't have stuck by me and I wouldn't stick by anyone in that situation for very long.

 

I understand you're just trying to give "a different perspective" but I think your perspective is muddying the waters in this case. I think you're projecting your own situation onto the OP's when it doesn't apply, and if you'd read his posts more carefully you'd see that.

[Kramerguy]

I think Wade has made a few valid points. I think the key is, you can leave, or as wade seems to suggest, find alternatives to making it suck less. I know a lot of people are down on tabs, especially off the internet. But consider this: bass guy shows up to first practice with bad tabs. Why is he using bad tabs at the next practice. Y'all should be FIXING them as you practice, and find errors. Turn rehearsal into practice, because that's the only way the bassist is going to practice in a verifiable way. If you can't fix it, then by all means, dump the problem person, or leave. But certainly try positive ways to improve his skills (if you can learn to help somebody else get better, you will be better for it).

Well that's just it Janx, we walk him through the part thats wrong, at rehearsal, and then he comes to the next one 5 days later, has not practiced any of it, and forgets the corrections, and makes the same mistakes again. We walk him through again, it's like a rinse-repeat cycle.

Everyone is pretty down on my drummer too, but the guy is really good, just misrepresented in that audio clip, he's trying to sing and play at the same time on a godsmack song, no easy feat, and he's not a singer by any stretch.

That clip was probably our worst song, practiced or live, ever. That's why I posted it. To me, the bass was the worst part of it, and I was looking for reinforcement of that conclusion.

What's also noteworthy is that every time we play live, the bassist always checks the song list inbetween songs, and then before we start the next song, he plays the "main riff" out loud wth? He also has a bad habit of yakking into the mic inbetween songs (both live and at practice). He's been told to knock it off by me and the drummer many times, he just doesn't get it.

Ah well, band frustrations..... I've droned on long enough about this. I got some good advice from a lot of people here, and yes, even you WADE have a point about the cut-and-run attitude, it's not always the best approach. I need to feel the drummer out a bit more on where he stands regarding future direction, and maybe this just isn't the band for me, but I will stick with it for now and if I decide to leave, I'll probably even find them my replacement as I'm finishing out scheduled gigs with them.

[wades_keys]

In my opinion, this boils down to talent vs experience and the ratio of one to another. Everyone will agree that players have different levels of experience and ability. If Diatribe and the drummer have been working hard to get their parts down and have been working with a bassist twice a week for six weeks and the bassist still can't find his groove in the mix, then one of two things is happening. Either the bassist isn't practicing enough at home or he isn't good enough to hang. If he were talented enough, he would've picked it up by now, right? Would anybody here stick with a player who consistently stayed at the same level as when you auditioned him/her? Or worse, like the OP stated, gets less stable with practice. Wades, I don't think your band would be enjoying so much improvement if even one of the critical players had not worked his ass off to get better and tighter. I suspect if one person was obviously holding your group back, you would agree more with the idea of cutting your loses. Unless, of course, you were that guy.:poke:

 

You're right on target man.

 

And if that guy was me, I would bow out gracefully because I try and listen to the whole mix and not just what comes out of my rig.

 

If I'm holding the band back - then that is not an enjoyable listening or playing experience for me, so why do it?

[wades_keys]

Well that's just it Janx, we walk him through the part thats wrong, at rehearsal, and then he comes to the next one 5 days later, has not practiced any of it, and forgets the corrections, and makes the same mistakes again. We walk him through again, it's like a rinse-repeat cycle. What's also noteworthy is that every time we play live, the bassist always checks the song list inbetween songs, and then before we start the next song, he plays the "main riff" out loud wth? He also has a bad habit of yakking into the mic inbetween songs (both live and at practice). He's been told to knock it off by me and the drummer many times, he just doesn't get it.

Oh hell yeah lose this bum - that's terrible behavior and performance; I wouldn't put up with that either.

[strathound]

 

(edit) here's the share - Don't judge drums/vocals, the drummer is singing this one and the mic was too close to the speaker, and he sucks as a vocalist lol. Especially listen to the bass during the guitar solo... this was the song I asked him to "bring it" on. http://www.box.net/shared/jvsmah78k4

 

 

I gave it a listen, and if you ignore the singing ... I've heard much worse. I'm kind of with Wade on this. What do you expect in the beginning? You don't have a name or reputation to bring in the best players in town ... yet. You're a good player. You just need to get out there and get some exposure and then you'll be able to cherry pick from other bands to create the band you really want. It will just take time and persistence.

 

If the bass player isn't showing progress after each rehearsal, can him and find someone else. You can't afford stagnation.

 

But yeah, be concerned about being perceived as a critical jerk. That will hamper your ability to advance your musical goals. Focus on your part. Do it flawlessly. Encourage those around you. And when you can't take it anymore, move on to something else.

 

EDIT: For the record, I'm in a similar situation with my bass player. He doesn't have time to rehearse, consistently gets lost on songs, stops playing during performances, you name it. I've chosen to stick with him instead of replacing him because he's got a great attitude, great ear for music and is cake to deal with. He also shows slow and steady progress. And I'm not infallible myself. So we do the best we can.

 

Good luck,

[wades_keys]

I gave it a listen, and if you ignore the singing ... I've heard much worse. I'm kind of with Wade on this. What do you expect in the beginning? You don't have a name or reputation to bring in the best players in town ... yet. You're a good player. You just need to get out there and get some exposure and then you'll be able to cherry pick from other bands to create the band you really want. It will just take time and persistence.

That's it - exactly.

 

If I had a dime for every "great" guitarist that is not in a band, I'd be retired right now.

 

Being "great" is no guarantee of success with a band, not even close.

 

In fact, I've tended to notice attitude, ego, martyr complexes, and general ass-holery from some of these cats.

 

Perhaps because they think that all that is required is for THEM to play their part well, or just like the record at correct tempo.

 

But there's more to it than that IMO - what do you do when your drummer starts a song faster than usual, or changes the pattern of the kick drum?

 

Or what if the singer forgets the lyrics or sings the wrong verse - ah, trainwreck and time to recalibrate your internal markers (hint: never cue your parts off of the vocals is something I've learned)

 

Do you blindly soldier on playing the "right" part, or do you LISTEN and adapt in real time to make the whole BAND sound better?

 

Don't get me wrong - everyone should learn their parts - but mistakes DO happen....

 

Does your band make eye contact?

 

Have you discussed AS A BAND how to avoid trainwrecks at tough breaks and endings?

 

These things go far beyond "homework" and playing your part - and are the things IMO that should be stressed at a BAND rehearsal.

 

In closing, I can safely say that my classic rock band has one of if not THE most talented lead guitarist in this area, hands down.

 

Corey has appeared on Nationally-released Steve Vai tributes and others, and can quite literally play anything in the hard rock vein - from Reb Beach to Brad Gillis to Steve Vai, with relative ease.

 

Even so, we still had to work at being a good BAND.

[Lee Flier]

EDIT: For the record, I'm in a similar situation with my bass player. He doesn't have time to rehearse, consistently gets lost on songs, stops playing during performances, you name it. I've chosen to stick with him instead of replacing him because he's got a great attitude, great ear for music and is cake to deal with. He also shows slow and steady progress.

 

 

And that there is the difference between your situation and the OP's.

[bendafender]

This is obviously written by a bass player. I play bass, guitar, and drums (and also do vocals), and I can sight read a bass part. I can not sight read a guitar or drum part. Guitar and drums take some time to get a song up to speed. If anyone should be able to get up to speed quickly, it should be the bass player.

 

 

Most bands here don't deal with charts. I agree though, bass parts are easy to sight read for me. Guitar is a bit harder.

[flemtone]

And that there is the difference between your situation and the OP's.

 

 

:phil:

 

See? Even Phil agrees!

[wades_keys]

And that there is the difference between your situation and the OP's.

 

Yeah - apparently so.

 

But that's what makes this place cool IMO.

 

I always keep in mind that for every 1 active poster on this board, there are likely 10 passive readers.

 

Rather than focusing on the "majority opinion" or what seems "right" given the majority view here, it's cool that folks are free to add their input, even if it misses the mark somewhat.

 

Notice that in proving me "wrong", the OP has added additional information that likely would not have emerged otherwise; information that IMO seals the deal on this particular bassist.

 

That's good stuff and what I dig about this place.

[Stagebandit]

That's good stuff and what I dig about this place.

What I dig about this place is that we can all have a good mood swing now and again and get right back to business.

[wades_keys]

What I dig about this place is that we can all have a good mood swing now and again and get right back to business.

yeah that's cool too - but in this case I don't think I was in any real mood.

 

I guess it's kinda weird talkin with text, ya know?

 

(Damn musicians always going off on tangents. )

 

How's that for a mood swing?

[Kramerguy]

Feel the love.

 

All I need now is a blunt and a hackey sack

[Stagebandit]

Feel the love. All I need now is a blunt and a hackey sack

I've got the hackey sack.


(Did you {censored} can those slackers yet?) jk

[callous]

 

What I didn't expect was the drummer to step up and side with the bassist.

 

There is your problem.

 

Who is the leader of your band? Within the answer to that question lies the solution to your dilema.

[wades_keys]

No, he can't. Or won't. Same difference. There is your problem. Who is the leader of your band? Within the answer to that question lies the solution to your dilema.

 

I usually agree with this, but in this case I'm not sure they've been together long enough to really be a "band" worth leading.

 

That's not meant to be an insult at all; what I'm saying is that it sounds more like a jam and an unbalanced one at that.

 

Dude should probably take the drummer and move on to something else.

[Kramerguy]

I usually agree with this, but in this case I'm not sure they've been together long enough to really be a "band" worth leading. That's not meant to be an insult at all; what I'm saying is that it sounds more like a jam and an unbalanced one at that. Dude should probably take the drummer and move on to something else.

 

 

I was thinking of bringing in the drummer for the one side project I'm joining, but then if the leader (and for that project, there is a definitive leader) doesn't like him or his playing, I will be caught in an awkward situation.

 

At this point I'm just working on networking, doing as many side projects as time allows, and practicing and recording on the old home recorder. We got a couple of paid gigs coming starting the weekend after this one. We're auditioning a singer thurs night, so we will see how things come together, I got on the bass player again and reminded him that paid gigs require professionalism and preparedness. If he makes an ass of us, I will no doubt just pack it up. I won't let him tarnish what name I do have.

[wades_keys]

I was thinking of bringing in the drummer for the one side project I'm joining, but then if the leader (and for that project, there is a definitive leader) doesn't like him or his playing, I will be caught in an awkward situation. At this point I'm just working on networking, doing as many side projects as time allows, and practicing and recording on the old home recorder. We got a couple of paid gigs coming starting the weekend after this one. We're auditioning a singer thurs night, so we will see how things come together, I got on the bass player again and reminded him that paid gigs require professionalism and preparedness. If he makes an ass of us, I will no doubt just pack it up. I won't let him tarnish what name I do have.

You've got your head on straight for sure, and a great attitude to boot.

If you can put up with some of my posts you can tolerate just about anything. I'm easier to get along with in person, I think

Having a second band in the works is great insurance.

That's exactly what I have done even though it has created some tension in the first band - mostly fears that I will bail on them if the other band is "better" (unfounded fears - the 2 bands are worlds apart in terms of the types of music, and the guys in my classic rock band wouldn't be caught dead playing some of the songs I do in the variety band)