Booking the band... Not the typical question.

[ckcondon]

We are an established cover band in our region and have worked up to the best paying rooms in town. There are only a few of those, and we now have some openings this year we'd like to fill at other venues we've played in the past. One of these venues we played regularly for almost 4 years. They are still "A" rooms, just not quite as high-paying.

The problem is this. We played a couple of those places with other lineups (Transitional as we were replacing guys who moved away) that weren't as strong as the one we have now. We didn't suck, and we still packed the house. For whatever reason, the management (who was never there when we actually played!) Decided not to have us back. Some of it could be politics (playing at a competing bar nearby), maybe not.

Now, I've been doing this a long time and I know that I have a damn good band, better than most that play these venues. I also have a good grasp of the mentality of most bar owners/managers. It's usually not personal, they are indifferent at best.

My issue is with "kissing ass". I'm just not good at it. I have always treated everyone professionally and the band has always performed well and on-time. I work in the corporate world and deal with high level CEO's and star athletes every day. I have a hard time going into some dive bar and begging for gigs from someone who treats bands on the same level as a dishwasher!

I know I need to "mend fences" and show these people that the new product is way different than before. I'm putting together a new promo kit with new live recordings that showcase the new talent. I guess I'll just walk in with hat in hand...

Have any of you had similar circumstances where you had to rebuild a relationship with a venue from scratch? How did it work out? What approach did you use?

 

Thanks Gang!

[wheresgrant3]

I haven't been in your exact situation, but we have played our ass off for an A-list venue and not to get asked back ... the reason leaning to 'performance related'... only later to find out it was really about our asking price. They could get bands at the same caliber for half our asking price.

 

 

Either your band left an impression of past performances that gives this club owner a negative perception...

 

OR

 

Someone in your band really pissed off someone in the venue

 

OR

 

It is about politics... and they are pissed you are playing down the road at their competition.

 

You really need to find out the reason before you attempt to rebook. I've seen club owners get pissed at fantastic bands for all sorts of reasons... and it usually revolves around either attitude or pay. You should really find out the reason why they won't rebook. If you really have a better lineup and one would argue... a 'better show' then a clear way of showing that you have upgrade your product is by updating your marketing materials.... invest in new press photos, new posters. It's amazing what a $500 investment will turn into when you are trying to get even older clubs to rebook.

 

 

I guess the larger question for me is... why would you want to go backward in terms of size of venue and pay? If it's just for the memories and a comfortable place to land on your calander, my advice is to move on to bigger and better (if your band has improved as you say it has). We have rooms in my local market an average band would consider 'A' list that we have grown out of a long time ago. Most still call us for bookings and are willing to pay our current gaurentee, and we still turn them down, because either their venue is too small or they don't the facilities to properly support a show. We could 'take the money and run' but it would be a miserable gig, and neither good for us or the clubowner. Some are within striking distance of current rooms we play, and yes, we decline to preserve the relationship we have with our current venues. Other times we've compromised when booking two popular venues in the same town. Two rooms in particular have bands year round... one with an indoor/outdoor situation, the other strictly indoor. They are literally a half mile from each other. We have worked out that we play Venue A-indoors in from October to April, and Venue B- Outdoors from May thru Sept. Booth bar owners aren't estatic... but each get's it's share of seasonal bookings without encroachment from the other.

[Austincowbell]

The bar owner doesn't care what you do in your professional life. I had to learn that lesson as well. In fact, he'd prefer that you DIDNT have a well paying important job as you would be more receptive to whatever he offers. I would go into the bar when business is slow and be honest and tell him that you love the venue, you love the staff and you pack the house so you want another gig and ask if there is something that the band did to preclude that from happening.

[Lopp]

 

The bar owner doesn't care what you do in your professional life. I had to learn that lesson as well. In fact, he'd prefer that you DIDNT have a well paying important job as you would be more receptive to whatever he offers. I would go into the bar when business is slow and be honest and tell him that you love the venue, you love the staff and you pack the house so you want another gig and ask if there is something that the band did to preclude that from happening.

 

 

Good tips.

 

One change from a sales standpoint: Instead of asking if there is something that the band did to preclude a gig from happening, ask what the owner/manager would like to see or change to make the gig happen. Otherwise, the manager would have to think about the negative aspects of your band, which would bias the manager negatively. Instead you are having the manager view the band as a positive thing, which would bias the manager towards viewing the band in a gig he would like to make happen.

[JimiRules]

It's kinda funny that this thread is up because we're sort of going through something like that in our band. We recently fired our bass player. He named our band so he said that the name is his and he's taking it with him. No problem. We have a new name now. He also did a lot of our booking. We're all sharing that duty now that he's no longer in the band.

 

There was a festival that we did last year. We enjoyed doing it, got a good response from the crowd, got tons of friend requests on our myspace from people in the area, so I contacted the guy who books the bands to see if we could get the spot this year. I informed him that we played there last year under a different band name and I explained him our situation as to why we have a new band name, but we are basically the same band. He asks if the guy we lost was the same guy who talked to him last year. I say yes, and I get a silence at the other end. I ask if that's a problem and he says, "well, I understood that he was the backbone of your band and I'm not sure of your situation right now." I told him that the bass player was by no means the backbone of our band and that we would bring the same show as we did last year. He says, "well, he told me that he was the backbone of the band." Then he goes, "well, I talked to the people on the street and they said you guys were really good, but you did too many original songs." I said, "well, we only did 5 out of a 3 hour show, but if he wanted nothing but covers then that was fine." Then he says, "well, how do I know that you can do covers? Some bands are good at playing their own material, but can't do covers." I said, "well, like I just said, we only did 5 original songs out of three hours, we had to fill that time with covers didn't we?" He goes, "yes." Then I say, "did you watch us play at all last year?" He goes, "yeah, not for the full 3 hours, but I did see some of the show." I go, "well, did you hear us play any cover songs?" He goes, "Yes". So I say, "well you know we can play covers." Then he goes, "well I have a few other bands that are interested, but they want too much." I say, "well, we'll take what you paid us last year." He goes, "well, I have some reservations since you lost your bass player and now you're a new band starting up, but you're in the running, I'll call you and let you know one way or the other."

 

I swear I felt like I was in the middle of an episode of Green Acres. I just hope we don't have any other problems like this when we start to book some of our local bars.

[jeff42]

I have had a similar problem in the last year or so.

 

We've been around for about 6 1/2 years. When we first started we had 2 lead singers, a female vocalist and a male vocalist. She did most of the booking. She could be pretty rude to the bar owners, not to mention she was only a so-so vocalist.

 

Last year I called a bar that we haven't played since she was in the band wanting to get a gig there and start playing there again at least semi-regularly. The owner lied and said he wasn't doing many bands right now. A few days later someone who is very good friends with the owner gave me the real reason:

 

He thought our female vocalist was rude and couldn't sing very well.

 

I did inform him later that We let her go about 4 years ago...

 

In that time we went from being a Classic Rock band that playes a few "party Band" songs to a Party Band that plays a few "Classic Rock" songs. Our crowds grew FAST and things have been great since- but still can't shake the memory of her from some people's minds...

 

SHE'S NOT WITH US ANYMORE!!!!!

 

In case someone is wondering about our name: When she was asked to leave we did think about changing the name but decided not to... that's why There & Back Again seems like a Classic Rock band name not a Party Rock band name.

 

But it works for us... most of the time.

[tim_7string]

It's kinda funny that this thread is up because we're sort of going through something like that in our band. We recently fired our bass player. He named our band so he said that the name is his and he's taking it with him. No problem. We have a new name now. He also did a lot of our booking. We're all sharing that duty now that he's no longer in the band. There was a festival that we did last year. We enjoyed doing it, got a good response from the crowd, got tons of friend requests on our myspace from people in the area, so I contacted the guy who books the bands to see if we could get the spot this year. I informed him that we played there last year under a different band name and I explained him our situation as to why we have a new band name, but we are basically the same band. He asks if the guy we lost was the same guy who talked to him last year. I say yes, and I get a silence at the other end. I ask if that's a problem and he says, "well, I understood that he was the backbone of your band and I'm not sure of your situation right now." I told him that the bass player was by no means the backbone of our band and that we would bring the same show as we did last year. He says, "well, he told me that he was the backbone of the band." Then he goes, "well, I talked to the people on the street and they said you guys were really good, but you did too many original songs." I said, "well, we only did 5 out of a 3 hour show, but if he wanted nothing but covers then that was fine." Then he says, "well, how do I know that you can do covers? Some bands are good at playing their own material, but can't do covers." I said, "well, like I just said, we only did 5 original songs out of three hours, we had to fill that time with covers didn't we?" He goes, "yes." Then I say, "did you watch us play at all last year?" He goes, "yeah, not for the full 3 hours, but I did see some of the show." I go, "well, did you hear us play any cover songs?" He goes, "Yes". So I say, "well you know we can play covers." Then he goes, "well I have a few other bands that are interested, but they want too much." I say, "well, we'll take what you paid us last year." He goes, "well, I have some reservations since you lost your bass player and now you're a new band starting up, but you're in the running, I'll call you and let you know one way or the other." I swear I felt like I was in the middle of an episode of Green Acres. I just hope we don't have any other problems like this when we start to book some of our local bars.

 

I would just let people know that you are a "new" band and would like to play the venue. It's situations like this that makes me wary of telling venues about my past bands. I know for a fact that not everyone liked my former bandleader, so if anything, it could be a detriment to mention his name. I'd rather the band just make it on our own via a camcorder performance put on DVD or a website.

[ski219]

This may or may not apply. I used to be in marketing and we would talk about the effort put into getting new business vs. the lack of effort put into retaining customers. Came across some interesting stuff about how if you fix a problem for an old, disgruntled unhappy customer they become the most loyal customers ever.

 

So it may well pay to go back to those clubs , hat in hand, so to speak, and say hey it seems you had a problem with us and we want to fix it.. here's where we're at right now...

[ckcondon]

Thanks for the input...

I know the bar doesn't care what I do for living. It just makes it harder to swallow your pride when you have to deal with attitudes. I've never been good at begging for gigs. I've never played an "audition gig" and we have always been paid fairly for our shows.

As far as going backwards to these rooms, it's not really the case. They are both "A" rooms for this town. One of them is a really, really fun place to play. The crowd is young and rowdy and the room is always packed on weekends. That's part of the problem... The guy knows he's gonna have a full house almost regardless of how good the band is. You have to suck on a pretty large scale to clear that place out!

As we all know, live music venues are a declining commodity. It never hurts to be on good terms with as many as you can.

I'm going to go back with the new promo and lay it on the line... "Maybe you weren't happy with something we did in the past, but we want to fix the relationship and have the opportunity to entertain your customers and make money for your bar". I'll give them our open dates and tell them to keep us in mind for fill-ins.

[babalugats85]

 

I'm going to go back with the new promo and lay it on the line... "Maybe you weren't happy with something we did in the past, but we want to fix the relationship and have the opportunity to entertain your customers and make money for your bar". I'll give them our open dates and tell them to keep us in mind for fill-ins.

 

 

That's a good attitude. I suspect it will work, and if it doesn't, you're probably better off not playing there.

[JimiRules]

 

I would just let people know that you are a "new" band and would like to play the venue. It's situations like this that makes me wary of telling venues about my past bands. I know for a fact that not everyone liked my former bandleader, so if anything, it could be a detriment to mention his name. I'd rather the band just make it on our own via a camcorder performance put on DVD or a website.

 

 

I think that's what I'm going to do from now on. I'm not even going to mention the old band at all. I just figured in this case it would have given us an advantage over another band that might have contacted him for the gig seeing that we played it last year and did pretty well. To tell you the truth the more I think about it I'm starting to think that our former bassist probably called the guy after he was fired and told him some bad stuff. Especially since this guy thought he was the "backbone" of the band and what not. He knew that we were going to target that gig again this year. So I wouldn't put it past the guy at all...

[rhat]

 

Maybe you weren't happy with something we did in the past, but we want to fix the relationship and have the opportunity to entertain your customers and make money for your bar". I'll give them our open dates and tell them to keep us in mind for fill-ins.

 

 

 

good idea. The name of the game is to sell, sell, sell. Just because a person says no... doesnt mean that that person should not get a follow up sales call. Keep going back till you make the sale. Sooner or later ,, he will book you. Some people call it being a pain in the ass ,, I call it following up.

[SpaceNorman]

My take is that HUGE part about success in booking a new venue is persistance. Unless you're a "name act", few if any bar owners care about claims that your band really packs 'em in, puts on a killer show, or just about anything else you say (the fact that it may all be true isn't really a factor either).

 

The sad truth is that from the bar owner's perspective "the band" is just like any other commodity he needs to have on hand to keep his operation running. Basically, you're competing with the beer distributor, the potato chip guy, whoever sells him his food products, etc. - for a slice of his time. Unless you can sell your band on it's value (which you can't since for the most part he's already decided how much he's going to pay you ... which by the way is exactly what he's going to pay any other new band in his room...) - the ONLY selling points you've got are availability and simplicity of the sale. Put another way - that means you've got to be the first band that talks to him when HE is ready to book a date. Being that "first band to talk to him" means either you get real lucky - or you're real persistent.

 

Just my two cents on that one....

[tlbonehead]

Seriously, my guess would be that it is the "playing at close-by competitor's venues. Certainly if a club is treating us well and booking us fairly regularly w/o burning us out it is just inconsiderate to play at a neighboring competitor's club, at least w/o asking if they had a problem with it. I'm very careful about that.

[ckcondon]

 

Seriously, my guess would be that it is the "playing at close-by competitor's venues. Certainly if a club is treating us well and booking us fairly regularly w/o burning us out it is just inconsiderate to play at a neighboring competitor's club, at least w/o asking if they had a problem with it. I'm very careful about that.

 

 

In hindsight, I'm sure it was a factor with this bar

Keep in mind that the area this particular venue is in is a "party district" of sorts with around a dozen bars within a 5 block area. Bands hop around all over it.

In this case, I always gave club "A" first choice of our available dates. If he didn't want us, I had to book somewhere. He had the option to lock us in to his club but he didn't. In all the years we played there he never mentioned anything about not wanting us to play nearby venues.

Maybe it was a misunderstanding. I didn't have any more shows at club "B" and was not planning to go back once I knew there was a beef between the bars. I tried to be loyal, but it didn't pay off.

I've been playing club "B" for the past couple of years because they booked us when club "A" didn't want us anymore.

I should probably leave it at that and not worry about it. Club "B" is smoke free, and I really prefer that environment.

The politics of booking bands is my absolute least favorite part of the business!

[dk123123dk]

 

The politics of booking bands is my absolute least favorite part of the business!

 

 

Then hire a booking manager? If you guys are an A list band you should have one already. Let the manager worry about kissing ass.

 

dk

[LightingPimp]

we were a new band , however the guys in the band were all in band the yr before where the co lead guitarist bailed because of the thought of becoming a hit band around the area ( he did this to several bands ) Well we booked our self silly taking every gig we could . We ended up playing close to 70 shows last yr and had two 30 day breaks !! There were some venues we contacted who wouldnt give us the time of day no matter how many times we contacted them. After last yrs success around here the band name got out ALOT due to the show we put on , we made bars mega cash and thats what they want to see .. the bottom line is it to them. Well this year some of the venues who wouldnt talk to us were calling us , wanting to book us because people went in there place and asked by name for them to book us.

 

I think the best way is being you have spoken to the owner / manager is to not look desperate by keep asking them what you can do or what you didnt do to make them want you. Book the competition venues , this will get his attention if his crowd is lack when you play close by , have people who like your band ask the venue who wont book you now to get you in there to play . Alot of times or most bar owners hear every band that comes in tell them how good they are , how well they pack the club etc .. and every band tells them this. Patrons asking for you will go further then you asking and then you wont look desperate for a show and the buzz will be placed that your band is what you told them it was .

 

We now have a venue that will ONLY book you exclusive in the town they are in , now for exclusive they pay about $500 more per show .. but out 2008 season was good enough he has no barging power to make us exclusive and were getting the same pay as being exclusive to his venue and play others there as well . I think the key is to let your name book you on the guys that dont want to come around to your truth . if your good enough of a band they will call you when they realize that the guy down the road is making good door money off you and even more important the people who come to see you DRINK .

[cooterbrown]

We occasionally run into these situations.

Mainly because, even though we play dance music, we have a female lead singer, but she's not really a "frontperson", and the club owners want someone who can get the hotties all riled up...and that's not us.

Then again - we are old as dirt, too.

[Rich4Once]

My band is good enough to play the best rooms here, but we don't quite have the attention of a couple of places. We're in several of the same rooms as the other bands that get in the ones we're after, and we're starting to make some noise.

 

My feeling is that we're don't need to beg those clubs, we just need to get their attention. How? By doing well at the rooms we do play, and letting the people do the talking. Just last Saturday I had several people asking me when we were playing at such and such club, etc. and I said we weren't booked there. They asked why, and I told them that we would call, but they always turn us down.

 

Each of them said they'd go and ask them to book us. I figure that if the clubs hear our name from their customers, they'll eventually come around. In the meantime, we just keep kicking ass and taking names.

[ckcondon]

 

Then hire a booking manager? If you guys are an A list band you should have one already. Let the manager worry about kissing ass. dk

 

In our case it simply isn't worth paying someone to "manage" our part-time band. We all have day jobs and only gig one weekend per month. We're all seasoned pros who don't have any misgivings about our place in the music business.

We are competent musicians, we are professional, we play good material, we sell a lot of drinks and we keep people in the club spending $$. But we only play out once every few weeks.

The problem comes from the fact that we all DO have demanding careers and families. None of us has an abundance of free time to repeatedly call or stop into bars looking for gigs.

The best relationships I've built are with club managers who appreciate our professionalism and realize that we are a benefit for their establishment. I can call or email these guys one time about dates and get a reply right away.

Those are the kind of people I want to work with, and they get 90% of our available dates.

It's just too bad that these other clubs are run by the power-tripping types who NEVER return calls and the only way you can get them is to pop into the venue a few times a week and hope you catch them there!

Overall, I'm happy with our schedule and really only have a few open dates through Dec. If I don't fill them, it's no big deal. I'm just always looking at all the options!

[ckcondon]

 

My feeling is that we're don't need to beg those clubs, we just need to get their attention. How? By doing well at the rooms we do play, and letting the people do the talking. Just last Saturday I had several people asking me when we were playing at such and such club, etc. and I said we weren't booked there. They asked why, and I told them that we would call, but they always turn us down. Each of them said they'd go and ask them to book us. I figure that if the clubs hear our name from their customers, they'll eventually come around. In the meantime, we just keep kicking ass and taking names.

 

 

That is the best way to do it. If people keep asking the club why you aren't on the calendar, they will think they might be missing out on a good, new band. Hopefully they still have some spots open and can get you in. Most of the good rooms in my town book WAY in advance. A lot are already booked solid through December!

[cherri]

 

Have any of you had similar circumstances where you had to rebuild a relationship with a venue from scratch? How did it work out? What approach did you use?

 

 

We were in the 6 - 8 week rotation at a venue in the next county for about four years. Sadly the owners wife died and he retired.

 

New owners re-opened it a couple of months ago. I introduced myself one day, dropped off our promo material, and followed up. I told him all the warm fuzzy memories we have of the place and about our big CD release party hosted at his house. He said he was booked till the end of April. That was fine as we are also booked out till summer.

 

We stopped in last weekend, and he said he was now booked until the end of October. I blurted out "Are you f*king kidding me?"

 

Ooops.

 

I can't second guess the situation. Possibly he plans to revamp the place and have all different bands than the previous owner.

 

On the upside, the radio station in the same town has picked us up for airplay. Our tunes will reach gobs more people via radio than in a bar.

[jeff42]

 

We were in the 6 - 8 week rotation at a venue in the next county for about four years. Sadly the owners wife died and he retired. New owners re-opened it a couple of months ago. I introduced myself one day, dropped off our promo material, and followed up. I told him all the warm fuzzy memories we have of the place and about our big CD release party hosted at his house. He said he was booked till the end of April. That was fine as we are also booked out till summer. We stopped in last weekend, and he said he was now booked until the end of October. I blurted out "Are you f*king kidding me?"

 

 

similar thing happened to us a few years back. We played a local bar on a regular basis. Even had our first gig there. The owners sold the bar and with the new owners we had to go through the "entertainment director" for the bar. This woman was very rude and told us she's never even heard of us and couldn't give us a gig. Even though we played there the month before! We finally did convince them to let us play there again. We had a great night, feeling great just to prove them wrong about us and moved on.

 

Sometimes I really hate people.

[LightingPimp]

who we played for like 25 shows last yr ( way to many lol ) we came in filled in for bands who canceled etc , we bacmae the biggest draw they had , bartenders walked out with $400 ea time we played there , we averaged around $800-$1000 at the door and average 4-6k in bar sales a show .. w figured we made them around 40k last yr with just our shows . This yr our price went up due to productions we run and things we bring no one else does . Start of 09 we called for booking and a new bar mnger was there and told us he would call HQ but didnt think they would pay us our fee, we said fine we stopped in a few times and realized he was friends with two other bands who draw much less and do originals and sorry cover imitations, and even started copying OUR show routine ( this was a reall pisser ) so we stopped all contact after seeing he was booking his buddies out the ass with there new band. First of march the new guy was gone ( his bands were not making them money .. go figure ) the GM called out lead singer after the weait staff kept asking why we were not booked their ( we also had many ppl asking ) we told them plain n simple they didnt wanna pay us for our show . the GM called begging for dates and by this time we had booked up till end of summer and had 4 floating dates we gave him 4 dates, he asked about the pay and said " we dont pay any band that much money " we replied .. were not ANY band isnt that why you called us ? after a few minutes of explaining what we do and him seeing our site and pictures from the place he runs he quickly came around to our thinking ( and pay ) he has called us two other times trying to get us in sooner, we told him they missed there chance and we only have 4 dates for them this year ...

 

moral of the story if your good enough they will sooner or later come to you for your business , if its sooner its good for them , if its later its still good for them if your available.

[dk123123dk]

Sorry I meant booking agent, not manager. You don't have to book all your gigs through the agent as well. It might get those last few bars to take you guys seriously. You don't have to play every night to have a booking agent. Just let them know when you guys can play shows, and make sure he double check's with you before finalizing anything. I think it would be a great way to avoid all the headaches and call backs required to book with some of these flaky bar owners.

 

Plus if you are booking the A level venues, you will be being paid more. So an extra %10 going to the agent shouldn't hurt at all. Who knows you might actually make more money this way. Rather than play the venues that only pay $500, he might be able to get you into the $1000+ venues/private functions. Just an idea. Good luck!

 

dk

 

 

In our case it simply isn't worth paying someone to "manage" our part-time band. We all have day jobs and only gig one weekend per month. We're all seasoned pros who don't have any misgivings about our place in the music business. We are competent musicians, we are professional, we play good material, we sell a lot of drinks and we keep people in the club spending $$. But we only play out once every few weeks. The problem comes from the fact that we all DO have demanding careers and families. None of us has an abundance of free time to repeatedly call or stop into bars looking for gigs. The best relationships I've built are with club managers who appreciate our professionalism and realize that we are a benefit for their establishment. I can call or email these guys one time about dates and get a reply right away. Those are the kind of people I want to work with, and they get 90% of our available dates. It's just too bad that these other clubs are run by the power-tripping types who NEVER return calls and the only way you can get them is to pop into the venue a few times a week and hope you catch them there! Overall, I'm happy with our schedule and really only have a few open dates through Dec. If I don't fill them, it's no big deal. I'm just always looking at all the options!