Feedback/Constructive Criticism and Crap

[BlueStrat]

Isnt that why these ppl are posting here asking for critisism etc? Because they "want the opinions of people who do what I do but are more successful at it and are further down the road going in the same direction I want to go"?

 

Maybe.

[6StringSling]

 

Music needs more mentors, and fewer critics. Keep your ears open, and I bet that a lot of the rough stuff that you're complaining about has a gem in it somewhere. Help them find that gem.

 

Because I enjoy going through the buffet a hell of lot more than I like going through garbage bins out back.

[Lee Knight]

Maybe I'm not being clear again on this point. I aspire to the knowledge and ability of guys like Satriani and Vai but it would serve no purpose (to me anyways) to "be them". I have my own styles and techniques which intersect at points with those players I admire. For example, when I cover AC/DC I don't try and play it like Angus & Malcolm Young with the same styles and techniques, I play it within my own styles and techniques while trying to keep a similar "feel". I don't want people to think "That guy thinks he's Angus Young" I want them to think "That guy can rock some AC/DC".

 

 

 

But wait, this thread is about those idiots posting their damn crap on the forum! Damn those punks.

 

And I say those damn punks should do just that. Post their stuff. Maybe they're green enough and thin skinned enough to not be ready for criticism. As Blue says above...

 

Maybe:wave:

 

Of course, he's right. I hate to think, however, that the MO around here would be to either dismiss young upstarts unaware of what they're asking for, or to provoke them.

 

Someone earlier said they hated it when a crappy video was posted. A crappy video still lets you grasp the vibe of the band and it's abilities. At least for those of us who have done it, you can see through the crappy video to the matter at hand...

 

The band.

 

So why would you... Mr. Six String, get your panties in a twist about it when you yourself have decided you don't want to. You're figuratively rolling your eyes at their crap. The audacity of them! Well?!?!??

 

Dude, it bugs me, as a working professional, that you're discouraging the very thing that makes professionals. The ability to put your nuts on the line and risk being castrated. It's rough. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, aren't you saying they shouldn't post crap?

 

Clear it up for me. Please.

 

Let me ask this. What is wrong with someone saying, "Dig my recording!!!"? They have just opened the gates to criticism. This is a musicans forum. You share and you're going to get feedback. Unless somehow this sort of thing is off limits... and that would be a shame.

[Lee Knight]

Don't want to jump into the middle of a {censored}storm-in-progress, but I did want to say that the Songwriting Forum is a much better place for Lee's involvement. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I do feel an obligation to try and give back to the community at large some of the good advice that has been given to me over the years.

Thanks, dude.

[tucktronix]

But wait, this thread is about those idiots posting their damn crap on the forum! Damn those punks. And I say those damn punks should do just that. Post their stuff. Maybe they're green enough and thin skinned enough to not be ready for criticism. As Blue says above... Maybe:wave: Of course, he's right. I hate to think, however, that the MO around here would be to either dismiss young upstarts unaware of what they're asking for, or to provoke them. Someone earlier said they hated it when a crappy video was posted. A crappy video still lets you grasp the vibe of the band and it's abilities. At least for those of us who have done it, you can see through the crappy video to the matter at hand... The band. So why would you... Mr. Six String, get your panties in a twist about it when you yourself have decided you don't want to. You're figuratively rolling your eyes at their crap. The audacity of them! Well?!?!?? Dude, it bugs me, as a working professional, that you're discouraging the very thing that makes professionals. The ability to put your nuts on the line and risk being castrated. It's rough. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, aren't you saying they shouldn't post crap? Clear it up for me. Please. Let me ask this. What is wrong with someone saying, "Dig my recording!!!"? They have just opened the gates to criticism. This is a musicans forum. You share and you're going to get feedback. Unless somehow this sort of thing is off limits... and that would be a shame.

 

 

Well said, Lee:thu:

[wheresgrant3]

But wait, this thread is about those idiots posting their damn crap on the forum! Damn those punks. And I say those damn punks should do just that. Post their stuff. Maybe they're green enough and thin skinned enough to not be ready for criticism. As Blue says above... Maybe:wave: Of course, he's right. I hate to think, however, that the MO around here would be to either dismiss young upstarts unaware of what they're asking for, or to provoke them. Someone earlier said they hated it when a crappy video was posted. A crappy video still lets you grasp the vibe of the band and it's abilities. At least for those of us who have done it, you can see through the crappy video to the matter at hand... The band. So why would you... Mr. Six String, get your panties in a twist about it when you yourself have decided you don't want to. You're figuratively rolling your eyes at their crap. The audacity of them! Well?!?!?? Dude, it bugs me, as a working professional, that you're discouraging the very thing that makes professionals. The ability to put your nuts on the line and risk being castrated. It's rough. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, aren't you saying they shouldn't post crap? Clear it up for me. Please. Let me ask this. What is wrong with someone saying, "Dig my recording!!!"? They have just opened the gates to criticism. This is a musicans forum. You share and you're going to get feedback. Unless somehow this sort of thing is off limits... and that would be a shame.

backed!

[Hegmatronicon]

But wait, this thread is about those idiots posting their damn crap on the forum! Damn those punks. And I say those damn punks should do just that. Post their stuff. Maybe they're green enough and thin skinned enough to not be ready for criticism. As Blue says above... Maybe:wave: Of course, he's right. I hate to think, however, that the MO around here would be to either dismiss young upstarts unaware of what they're asking for, or to provoke them. Someone earlier said they hated it when a crappy video was posted. A crappy video still lets you grasp the vibe of the band and it's abilities. At least for those of us who have done it, you can see through the crappy video to the matter at hand... The band. So why would you... Mr. Six String, get your panties in a twist about it when you yourself have decided you don't want to. You're figuratively rolling your eyes at their crap. The audacity of them! Well?!?!?? Dude, it bugs me, as a working professional, that you're discouraging the very thing that makes professionals. The ability to put your nuts on the line and risk being castrated. It's rough. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, aren't you saying they shouldn't post crap? Clear it up for me. Please. Let me ask this. What is wrong with someone saying, "Dig my recording!!!"? They have just opened the gates to criticism. This is a musicans forum. You share and you're going to get feedback. Unless somehow this sort of thing is off limits... and that would be a shame.

Seconded.
Motion carried.

[wades_keys]

But wait, this thread is about those idiots posting their damn crap on the forum! Damn those punks. And I say those damn punks should do just that. Post their stuff. Maybe they're green enough and thin skinned enough to not be ready for criticism. As Blue says above... Maybe:wave: Of course, he's right. I hate to think, however, that the MO around here would be to either dismiss young upstarts unaware of what they're asking for, or to provoke them. Someone earlier said they hated it when a crappy video was posted. A crappy video still lets you grasp the vibe of the band and it's abilities. At least for those of us who have done it, you can see through the crappy video to the matter at hand... The band. So why would you... Mr. Six String, get your panties in a twist about it when you yourself have decided you don't want to. You're figuratively rolling your eyes at their crap. The audacity of them! Well?!?!?? Dude, it bugs me, as a working professional, that you're discouraging the very thing that makes professionals. The ability to put your nuts on the line and risk being castrated. It's rough. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, aren't you saying they shouldn't post crap? Clear it up for me. Please. Let me ask this. What is wrong with someone saying, "Dig my recording!!!"? They have just opened the gates to criticism. This is a musicans forum. You share and you're going to get feedback. Unless somehow this sort of thing is off limits... and that would be a shame.

Hear, hear.

You know what's kinda funny - is I could post a video of an old metal band from my hometown on here, and I bet it would get ripped a new asshole.

But they were good enough to get signed to a label, do multiple tours of Europe, and have their first album produced by Glenn Danzig.

[6StringSling]

 

You're figuratively rolling your eyes at their crap. The audacity of them! Well?!?!?? Dude, it bugs me, as a working professional, that you're discouraging the very thing that makes professionals. The ability to put your nuts on the line and risk being castrated. It's rough. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this, aren't you saying they shouldn't post crap? Clear it up for me. Please. Let me ask this. What is wrong with someone saying, "Dig my recording!!!"? They have just opened the gates to criticism. This is a musicans forum. You share and you're going to get feedback. Unless somehow this sort of thing is off limits... and that would be a shame.

 

You can split hairs any way you want to - I still believe that there's a huge difference between something that's obviously "crap" and something that's not very good and that difference is simply appearance vs content.

 

It's like a budding writer asking an accomplished novelist to read a short story and give some feedback/constructive criticism then handing them a wad of hand-written pages in smeared pencil with poor handwriting.

[wheresgrant3]

You can split hairs any way you want to - I still believe that there's a huge difference between something that's obviously "crap" and something that's not very good and that difference is simply appearance vs content. It's like a budding writer asking an accomplished novelist to read a short story and give some feedback/constructive criticism then handing them a wad of hand-written pages in smeared pencil with poor handwriting.

 

 

Who's an 'accomplished novelist' around here. The only thing most of us have in common is maybe a little more experience than the average person soliciting advice (and I'll state, that is not always the case).

 

Sure presentation is part of the package... but sometimes you also have to work with what you've got. And not everyone has the knowledge, skills, time or money to put together a better package. That doesn't diminish their talent.

[fingerpicker]

I love when the person posting their clip has to give you 25 reasons why it sounds crappy.

"Oh I just learned this song, so It might be rough."

"Oh I did it all in one take so there are mistakes."

"Oh I had Broncitis while trying to pull off the vocals."

"Oh my middle finger was broken so the guitar part is sloppy.'

Gimme a break

If you are going to do something take the time and do it right.

[6StringSling]

 

Sure presentation is part of the package... but sometimes you also have to work with what you've got. And not everyone has the knowledge, skills, time or money to put together a better package. That doesn't diminish their talent.

 

That's not an excuse to post crap.

[JesterNVA]

Personally I feel it's situational. If it was a band who has been gigging for a year plus - I would expect something of a higher caliber - and yes I would prolly give them {censored} for not investing in a demo of some type for a press kit etc.

 

However if it was a newly formed band asking for some direction and advice - I think I would take that into consideration when offering my feedback and would be OK with something slightly distorted. After all - how many of you had the resources available to make a picture perfect presentation in your very first band after only 3-4 months?

 

I'm a manager for Papa John's. If someone comes up to me after working for 3 years and says "how does this pizza look" and it looks like ass, I'm going to tell them it looks like {censored} and give them hell becuz they've been here long enough to know better.

 

If it's a brand new teenage kid on his first job I just hired a week ago - I'm going to say "well it's pretty rough" - but then I'm going to go over and spend 10 minutes showing him how to make a good looking pizza. How to slap dough, how to sauce it, how to put the toppings on, how to cheese it, etc. I'm going to show him where his mistakes are so he doesn't do it again.

 

His next pizza is still going to look rough - but if he listened to what I said - it's going to look better than the first one.

 

I'm not going to just tell him it looks like ass and he shouldn't bother asking me to look at one of his pizzas until it looks picture perfect. If I managed my store like that - I would have NO respect from any of my employees.

[wheresgrant3]

That's not an excuse to post crap.

 

I see where you are going...

 

But 'crap' is purely subjective. You and I may have a complete difference of opinion of what makes a 'crap' recording. Here's a crap recording "crap recording"... I'm sure one half of the listeners would be focused on the recorded elements... the other half on the performance. Now I'm sure if I asked for feedback and critisicm that one half would say... well I can't really hear the entire band, so I can't objectively give an opinion. The other half will say hey! "Sounds like a fun time".

 

BTW... when I post media to this forum, I'm rarely looking for an opinion. I'm usually just looking to share experiences.

 

Presentation is important... but don't assume that everyone feels presentation is the most important element when looking at someone's performance. That's just how you feel because you hold yourself to a higher standard. I certainly don't. I can find 'jewels' in almost anything.

[BlueStrat]

 

I'm a manager for Papa John's. If someone comes up to me after working for 3 years and says "how does this pizza look" and it looks like ass, I'm going to tell them it looks like {censored} and give them hell becuz they've been here long enough to know better. If it's a brand new teenage kid on his first job I just hired a week ago - I'm going to say "well it's pretty rough" - but then I'm going to go over and spend 10 minutes showing him how to make a good looking pizza. How to slap dough, how to sauce it, how to put the toppings on, how to cheese it, etc. I'm going to show him where his mistakes are so he doesn't do it again. His next pizza is still going to look rough - but if he listened to what I said - it's going to look better than the first one.

Yes, except in your analogy, the kid is the pizza maker but we're the customer, not his boss. He's asking for input from strangers.

 

I wish more young musicians would go get a mentor and work with him. That's what a lot of us did 'back in the day'. I played in several bands starting a age 17 with guys who were as much as 15 years older than me and far more experienced. They helped guide me, correct me, teach me, kick me in the ass when needed and give me attaboys when deserved. By the time I was 23, I was a pretty well rounded player with a good idea of how the business worked and an ability to play with most any band.

 

What we have now isn't that. What happens now is young kid gets guitar, young kid learns a few covers, young kid starts band with his peers, young kid sees himself as a songwriter and launches original project, young kid gets rudimentary recording setup and records audio/video of early efforts, young kid posts songs on internet for the world to hear, young kid gets bummed when criticized. There doesn't seem to be much mentoring going on at all.

 

My cover band was looking for months for some young guys to come in and add a new energy to our geezer band. We couldn't find a one who would 1) want to play with 'old guys', 2) want to play any covers except for a very narrow genre range; most of them wanted to do all original. We finally found a drummer who just turned 30, who had a hard time showing up to rehearsal and would show up for the gigs a half hour before we were to start to begin setting up his kit. We are all veteran players but the young guys just see us as jokes.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there is a different attitude that exists, and it's foreign to a lot of us geezers. The idea of recording my own songs, let alone making them available to the general public, was an idea that I only dreamed about one day being good enough to do, after I had 6 or 10 years under my belt as a performer and writer. Kids today start out with the idea that they're writers, and everything they do must be recorded and shared, no matter how rough, how incomplete, or how poorly produced. I just don't get that.

[cooterbrown]

 

That's not an excuse to post crap.

 

 

Crap is subjective.

 

Personally, I would never in a million years take that "Don't Stop Believin" track you posted to the stage.

 

I wouldn't even play it alone in my house, for that matter.

[wades_keys]

Crap is subjective. Personally, I would never in a million years take that "Don't Stop Believin" track you posted to the stage. I wouldn't even play it alone in my house, for that matter.

 

Agreed.

 

Hey 6, why not do a REAL backtrack, with no MIDI and live instruments?

 

It would sound SO much better.

 

Hell, I'd even play the keyboard part for you if you want: that lick is dead simple to play.

 

I'd imagine it would take far less effort and wind up sounding far better anyway (as opposed to tediously inputting every note and rhythmic value into a standard notation format)

[Janx]

Yes, except in your analogy, the kid is the pizza maker but we're the customer, not his boss. He's asking for input from strangers. I wish more young musicians would go get a mentor and work with him. That's what a lot of us did 'back in the day'. I played in several bands starting a age 17 with guys who were as much as 15 years older than me and far more experienced. They helped guide me, correct me, teach me, kick me in the ass when needed and give me attaboys when deserved. By the time I was 23, I was a pretty well rounded player with a good idea of how the business worked and an ability to play with most any band. What we have now isn't that. What happens now is young kid gets guitar, young kid learns a few covers, young kid starts band with his peers, young kid sees himself as a songwriter and launches original project, young kid gets rudimentary recording setup and records audio/video of early efforts, young kid posts songs on internet for the world to hear, young kid gets bummed when criticized. There doesn't seem to be much mentoring going on at all. My cover band was looking for months for some young guys to come in and add a new energy to our geezer band. We couldn't find a one who would 1) want to play with 'old guys', 2) want to play any covers except for a very narrow genre range; most of them wanted to do all original. We finally found a drummer who just turned 30, who had a hard time showing up to rehearsal and would show up for the gigs a half hour before we were to start to begin setting up his kit. We are all veteran players but the young guys just see us as jokes. I guess what I'm saying is that there is a different attitude that exists, and it's foreign to a lot of us geezers. The idea of recording my own songs, let alone making them available to the general public, was an idea that I only dreamed about one day being good enough to do, after I had 6 or 10 years under my belt as a performer and writer. Kids today start out with the idea that they're writers, and everything they do must be recorded and shared, no matter how rough, how incomplete, or how poorly produced. I just don't get that.

 

 

Probably the sad thing is, if the band of "kids" had 1 old guy mentor, he could probably show them how to do THEIR material better, and assemble and edit it better such that what they posted would have been better. Even if the old guy didn't agree with the mentality of sharing stuff so early, the old guy could guide the band so this new practice would be better executed.

[6StringSling]

 

What we have now isn't that. What happens now is young kid gets guitar, young kid learns a few covers, young kid starts band with his peers, young kid sees himself as a songwriter and launches original project, young kid gets rudimentary recording setup and records audio/video of early efforts, young kid posts songs on internet for the world to hear, young kid gets bummed when criticized. There doesn't seem to be much mentoring going on at all.

 

It's even worse than that; remember that thread with all the links to young kids who could barely hold a guitar and/or a pick making a "teaching" videos on how to play Smoke on the Water?

[6StringSling]

 

Hell, I'd even play the keyboard part for you if you want: that lick is dead simple to play.

 

Since you're offering, I'll make you a deal; I'll trade you some graphics work. Not that I don't appreciate a free offer, but you're a professional gigging musician and I should be paying for something that I'm capable of doing but don't want to take the time to do.

[cooterbrown]

Probably the sad thing is, if the band of "kids" had 1 old guy mentor, he could probably show them how to do THEIR material better, and assemble and edit it better such that what they posted would have been better. Even if the old guy didn't agree with the mentality of sharing stuff so early, the old guy could guide the band so this new practice would be better executed.

 

I have offered up that role, and have a friend who did also, when we were giving lessons a few years ago.

Most of the kids had the attitude of "You're just an old, irrelevant has-been...you know nothing of my music, and I don't need your input, thanks."

[mr3lions]

I have offered up that role, and have a friend who did also, when we were giving lessons a few years ago. Most of the kids had the attitude of "You're just an old, irrelevant has-been...you know nothing of my music, and I don't need your input, thanks."

That's a very gracious thing for you to do. My dad's friend was a brilliant andc road experienced musician when I first started out. Unfortunately I was like many of these kids and let a lot of his advice go in one ear and out the other.

[scopony]

I accept it's pretty lame to ignore or contradict what you asked for. But I challenge any of you, any of you... to tell me that isn't a learning curve issue. Of course there are morons that'll never climb the curve And I was SHOCKED at 20 years of age when my7 track basement New Wave EP was panned by some peers.

[zekmoe]

2 things I remember. When I was a kid, it was a treat to be able to record anything, even on a cassette tape deck. And whether it was good or not, I couldn't tell. I wasn't listening for good. I was listening for "Hey, we played Stairway! or sort of". Now, anyone can both record on 100 tracks, make a CD, and have 100's of people hear it. All easy and free.

[jeff42]

yep. big difference today. when I was in high school we plunked down about $300 for a crappy sounding 3 song demo. (we wanted 4 but didn't have the cash)

We were one of the only high school bands in the area that has original music on "tape." It sucked but we were proud of it. Today every teenager has a CD.