Feedback/Constructive Criticism and Crap

[vanlatte]

No, the main point is why post crap.

 

 

Oh, I guess I got confused by this:

 

 

Especially when you're going to preface the request with excuse(s) and/or make excuses after you get a negative reaction. And then act all butt-hurt.

 

[6StringSling]

 

" ...and it always seemed pretty obvious to me in most cases when I was way off the mark, be that as an artist or a musician. " And so you never showed your work to a better player and you never got to reap the rewards of a good, helpful criticism? You just sort of stayed to yourself cause you didn't want to post crap? So you never really moved in leaps and bounds like those that listen to others better than yourself? 'Cause you didn't want to post crap?

 

Mostly I keep to myself because I'm a very private person. I know very few other musicians and only a couple of them play guitar. I have posted a couple of my originals to the Power Tab community in the past and they received good reviews and high ratings. As for criticism, I compare myself to guys like Satriani and Vai and try to imagine what they would tell me if they were to critique my playing.

 

Leaps and bound is subjective. I always set my bar high. Am I an average player? Above? Below? Who can tell - the guitarist community would never reach a consensus on what "average" is so I just consider myself a mediocre hack. I tell people that if you were to go to the top floor of any office building in any city in any reasonably developed country and spit out the window, you'd probably hit a guitarist better than me.

 

I suppose that you can argue that "crap" is also subjective. For myself, if I think I have to make excuses for it, then I think it's probably crap.

[cooterbrown]

 

I'm an old guy and I think it's great. As JesterNVA says, "You guys have been doing this so long - YOU are the ones who can tell the difference between bad recording and bad performing and who's opinions I would trust more than my friends." There's also the possibility from a poster's angle that people might react with, "HOLY #$$^%!!!! That's the best thing I've ever heard!!!"

 

 

...and that's the truth.

There have been a few n00bs who have posted some really spectacular music, on here, and we have definitely given them props.

[vanlatte]

Then that band was almost forced to reveal their immaturity and responded with racial slurs. What a wasted opportunity to exchange information.

I don't remember this at all...

[Lee Knight]

Mostly I keep to myself because I'm a very private person. I know very few other musicians and only a couple of them play guitar. I have posted a couple of my originals to the Power Tab community in the past and they received good reviews and high ratings. As for criticism, I compare myself to guys like Satriani and Vai and try to imagine what they would tell me if they were to critique my playing. Leaps and bound is subjective. I always set my bar high. Am I an average player? Above? Below? Who can tell - the guitarist community would never reach a consensus on what "average" is so I just consider myself a mediocre hack. I tell people that if you were to go to the top floor of any office building in any city in any reasonably developed country and spit out the window, you'd probably hit a guitarist better than me. I suppose that you can argue that "crap" is also subjective. For myself, if I think I have to make excuses for it, then I think it's probably crap.

 

 

That's all great for you, but it might not be the best way to move ahead. My point being, because you don't see the value in it... uh... how do I say it? You missed out.

 

It's not a competition. When a kid reacts to critisism with disbelief or anger, it's a shame but it shouldn't be a surprise to us. As I said, we all reacted that way at the start. (or we played it safe and just didn't put it out there) That's why I think it is beneficial to everyone to respond with a sincere desire to help any way they can.

 

And word the criticism so as to respect their ego. Tread lightly to a degree.

 

I find the comment "grow a thicker skin" a thinly veiled cover for an excuse to be mean. An attempt to make oneself feel better. Put down others to elevate oneself?

 

Think about it.

[Janx]

I see both sides.

6string is right, if you know its crap, why post it? I say that, with a link in my sig to my crap. And it is crap. It is not to the level of other performances linked in others sigs. But in the same vein, I'm not posting it with a "look at my crap and give me feedback" message, I'm simply linking in the last thing I happened to record in my sig.

I also see Lee's point. Many of the "look at me" posts are of two kind, one is the band is really just trying to promote itself, which is spam. The other is the person thinks they have something good. They are not aware of higher production values that exist here. Because most of the time, they get nailed on production values, not just actual content quality.

The odds of getting useful feeback is low, especially for folks who post crap and they don't think it is. Usually because the hype to crap ratio is high, so the poster taken down a few pegs.

[lespaul1964]

I think most people that post don't think it is crap. I listen to some of my recordings of 20 years ago and don't think a lot of them were very good at all, but at the time I played them to anyone who listened because at the time I was very happy with the work.

They post because for some reason they feel that this particular recording is better than their last somehow (video as opposed to audio, sound quality, audience, stage, lights, etc.). Some of our comments, though likely deservedly so, are left hooks straight to the ego. I was hesitant of posting videos here.

A lot of these people are very young, and from what I have perceived hanging around BWTB, most of us are not so young, though I may be wrong.

I see both sides. 6string is right, if you know its crap, why post it? I say that, with a link in my sig to my crap. And it is crap. It is not to the level of other performances linked in others sigs. But in the same vein, I'm not posting it with a "look at my crap and give me feedback" message, I'm simply linking in the last thing I happened to record in my sig. I also see Lee's point. Many of the "look at me" posts are of two kind, one is the band is really just trying to promote itself, which is spam. The other is the person thinks they have something good. They are not aware of higher production values that exist here. Because most of the time, they get nailed on production values, not just actual content quality. The odds of getting useful feeback is low, especially for folks who post crap and they don't think it is. Usually because the hype to crap ratio is high, so the poster taken down a few pegs.

 

[Lee Knight]

There's an interesting thing that goes on over at the Songwriting Forum here. You post your work in progress and the others do a very valid criticism of what you've presented.

Some of the posters are of the "first thing ever put down in ink" variety. Some are very accomplished writers looking for feedback. And in those posts of their material, there is a genuine desire to say, "look what I did!!!" right along with an equally real desire to search for criticism and ideas and spark to take their work to the next level. I like that. Yeah! Look what I did! Why not?

It's the difference between a musician's competitive attitude and an artist's "work in progress" mindset. Both are valid, but a musician and band would do well to keep an open mind to constant improvement. They themselves then become the work-in-progress.

[wades_keys]

Both are valid, but a musician and band would do well to keep an open mind to constant improvement. They themselves then become the work-in-progress.

 

Yup.

 

I'm going through this a little with my band: trying to fine tune and polish up some things.

 

It's easier to just let it go, but we want to improve as a band....

[6StringSling]

 

That's all great for you, but it might not be the best way to move ahead. My point being, because you don't see the value in it... uh... how do I say it? You missed out.

 

Maybe. But move ahead in what direction? I'll be happy when I feel comfortable playing in the styles of Satch and Vai and I don't see any need to share that progress with anyone - I'll know it when I get there.

[Lee Knight]

Maybe. But move ahead in what direction? I'll be happy when I feel comfortable playing in the styles of Satch and Vai and I don't see any need to share that progress with anyone - I'll know it when I get there.

 

 

 

Really? You think any of those guys feel like that? "Satch and Vai"? They never put it out there until they were John McLaughlin? Of course they did. They got so freakin' unbelievably good because they did.

[Lee Knight]

But move ahead in what direction?

 

 

In the direction you choose. You believe criticism and input from others somehow limits you? Forces your direction? It's all management of info. Take what you want and need and leave the rest.

 

If Joe Pass were to tell Steve Vai, "tighten up your octave runs, your swing is in the toilet during those passages", you think Vai would run the risk of accidentally turn into Pass?

 

No.

 

He'd just pay more attention to how's he's loosing it a little during those runs. As pointed out to him by a better musician at the time.

[mstreck]

I think anyone posting music on here should read this thread first: instant education!

 

It almost has sticky potential.

[MartinC]

I think every musician has to keep his own council. When I was studying flamenco, of course I listened to my teacher-he knew way more than me. When I started playing for flamenco dancers, I had to listen to their critiques regarding how well I was accompanying them, but in regard to strickly guitar playing or musical matters, not as much. Everyone wants to hear people say nice things about their music, but from who? If your producing music for the general public, do you really expect musicians who are into Ornette Coleman and Bird to really like your stuff? You might well be satisfied by them not hating it with a passion. Now if I produced a jazz record and every jazz player I knew hated it, that's a huge problem.
As far as looking for feedback by posting vids with terrible sound, and recordings that are half done, I don't get that at all except from a songwriting or arrangement standpoint, like: Here's a demo of our new tune, do you think the bridge is too long? But other than looking for that type of feedback, I personally would never post anything I didn't think was done. And with today's tech in mixing, even deciding something's done.......you could get a lot of opinions just on that. I'd say finish your stuff, with the help of trusted people or by yourself if that's the way you do it, then put it out there. People buying it is the best feedback you can get.

[mnash]

In my experience, the most sincere encouragement, the most positive and helpful criticism, and the greatest measure of individual respect usually comes from damn good musicians. Of course, there's exceptions to everything, and I know of some good players that are pricks, but even they don't go out of their way to slam the music of others, they just ignore it. Fine.

Players lacking confidence in their musicianship are perhaps threatened by all potential competetion, and so often seem eager to be the first to squash the puppies into the mud.

Don't like what you hear? Fine, you can leave, turn it down, change the channel, whatever, but there's no reason to be a jerk about it. Don't waste your time on it. Besides, few criticisms speak louder than saying nothing at all.

[6StringSling]

 

In the direction you choose. You believe criticism and input from others somehow limits you? Forces your direction?

 

Where'd you come up with that? I don't think I said or even implied that. Maybe I could say it better: I don't usually seek feedback/criticism from other guitarists/musicians because I think I already know what the problems are and I don't think that they're going to tell me anything of any real significance that I don't already know. Perhaps that's arrogance on my part but I trust my own criticism of myself because I'm honest with myself about what I put into it.

[Lee Knight]

Where'd you come up with that? I don't think I said or even implied that. Maybe I could say it better: I don't usually seek feedback/criticism from other guitarists/musicians because I think I already know what the problems are and I don't think that they're going to tell me anything of any real significance that I don't already know. Perhaps that's arrogance on my part but I trust my own criticism of myself because I'm honest with myself about what I put into it.

 

 

 

Cool. I'm not trying to provoke you. I'm just passionate about the topic. I'm trying to point out that sometimes we idolize or look up to a specific musician but fail to adopt the manner in which they went about becoming what we admire so much.

 

The best way to become like your idols is to do what your idols did to get that way. Vai, etc. didn't hide out. That's fine if you do and I'm not trying to say otherwise, but don't try and tell me others shouldn't put themselves out there cause you think it's tacky or whatever it is you believe.

 

You get better by putting your stuff out there. Simple and true. Feedback is the quickest road to improvement.

 

2nd point. We all owe ourselves an environment that fosters respect for those who do put it out there. To better themselves.

[vanlatte]

In my experience, the most sincere encouragement, the most positive and helpful criticism, and the greatest measure of individual respect usually comes from damn good musicians. Of course, there's exceptions to everything, and I know of some good players that are pricks, but even they don't go out of their way to slam the music of others, they just ignore it. Fine. .

 

 

This works both ways....many times I have seen the the most sincere encouragement, the most positive and helpful criticism, and the greatest measure of individual respect get trampled underfoot with flurries of excuses.

 

 

Not all the time, but I have noticed the exception is to take the criticism in a positive light and the rule is to deflect most if not all of it and blame something else.

 

No wonder the very people that are the most capable of giving good advice hold back...it's usually so much wasted time.

[rsadasiv]

 

There's an interesting thing that goes on over at the Songwriting Forum here. You post your work in progress and the others do a very valid criticism of what you've presented. Some of the posters are of the "first thing ever put down in ink" variety. Some are very accomplished writers looking for feedback. And in those posts of their material, there is a genuine desire to say, "look what I did!!!" right along with an equally real desire to search for criticism and ideas and spark to take their work to the next level. I like that. Yeah! Look what I did! Why not? It's the difference between a musician's competitive attitude and an artist's "work in progress" mindset. Both are valid, but a musician and band would do well to keep an open mind to constant improvement. They themselves then become the work-in-progress.

 

 

Don't want to jump into the middle of a {censored}storm-in-progress, but I did want to say that the Songwriting Forum is a much better place for Lee's involvement. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I do feel an obligation to try and give back to the community at large some of the good advice that has been given to me over the years.

[badhabit]

I posted some stuff from my soundclick page on another guitar site for opinions. I thought what I posted was better than what the comments I received said. But I listened to them and took it to heart. They were kind enough to listen, so I should at least good enough to listen to the critiques from my contemporaries. I will say that where I live, there does exist a "head cutting" mentality among guitar players, who enjoy putting down another player ruthlessly. For me, at this stage, I prefer to just encourage most guys. If they ask my opinion, I'll give the good news first, before mentioning any deficits. Then I try not to cut them off at the knees. I appreciate the same from others.

That said, there is no point in posting a performance, asking opinions, then getting pushed outa shape when you don't like the opinions. The saying goes, "if you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen."

[toddkuen]

I'm having a really hard time trying to figure out why people continue to post crappy recordings and/or video and ask for feedback or constructive criticism. Especially when you're going to preface the request with excuse(s) and/or make excuses after you get a negative reaction. And then act all butt-hurt. Mostly, I'm wondering why in the hell people would post that crap on YouTube or MySpace. I realize that in today's economy that it may not be as easy as it used to be to pony up the small of $$$ for a domain, but for crying out loud, if people had their own domain and website they could post that crap here and avoid the embarrassment of having other people all over the world see it. That's assuming that they're actually looking for feedback/constructive criticism to begin with and not just posting something for mommy to magnet to the refrigerator.

 

 

I've made the point here in the past that the collective you (as the "someone" who knows its "crap") have the responsibility to provide the best positive critical comments you can.

 

Why?

 

Because what you might consider "crap" might be something that some kid has done for the first time in their life and they are proud of it.

 

Is it even music? Maybe, maybe not.

 

But you don't want to discourage them if you can avoid it (yes there are cases where you should). You don't know if its their first or 50,000th effort (which to me makes a difference). You don't know what you don't know about the person asking for criticism. They might be a great musician but be totally clueless with audio and recording.

 

Most people figure out fairly quickly if they are "not good" at something and go away on their own if they should.

 

At the same time its easy to wail away in the woodshed for years and make real progress that you can't judge yourself.

 

Personally, I think its kinder to start out asking pointed, non-threatening questions about (particularly) questionable work, e.g., "What do you think about this?", "Where to do you see yourself in the progress of leaning X", etc.

 

If someone is legit it will be obvious where they are and why. If they're arrogant pricks it will be obvious...

[6StringSling]

 

Cool. I'm not trying to provoke you. I'm just passionate about the topic. I'm trying to point out that sometimes we idolize or look up to a specific musician but fail to adopt the manner in which they went about becoming what we admire so much. The best way to become like your idols is to do what your idols did to get that way.

 

Maybe I'm not being clear again on this point. I aspire to the knowledge and ability of guys like Satriani and Vai but it would serve no purpose (to me anyways) to "be them". I have my own styles and techniques which intersect at points with those players I admire. For example, when I cover AC/DC I don't try and play it like Angus & Malcolm Young with the same styles and techniques, I play it within my own styles and techniques while trying to keep a similar "feel". I don't want people to think "That guy thinks he's Angus Young" I want them to think "That guy can rock some AC/DC".

[wades_keys]

For example, when I cover AC/DC I don't try and play it like Angus & Malcolm Young with the same styles and techniques, I play it within my own styles and techniques while trying to keep a similar "feel". I don't want people to think "That guy thinks he's Angus Young" I want them to think "That guy can rock some AC/DC".

 

My thought process while learning the song is: "I want to do this justice"

 

If that involves slight variations, so be it: but to me a big part of the enjoyment is trying to use my accumulated whatever it is to play the song with the right tone, feel, and phrasing.

[Hegmatronicon]

Yes, but not from just any joe blow. If I'm a home builder, I'm not going to ask a lawyer how to improve my floor system to make it stop squeaking. If I'm a lawyer, I'm not going to ask a builder how to improve my presentation before a judge. If I'm a tourist in a new town, I'm not going to ask another tourist where the best places to stay and eat are. I'm going to ask the folks who live there and know their way around. I want the opinions of people who do what I do but are more successful at it and are further down the road going in the same direction I want to go. What the average consumer thinks is important in the results, but not in the process. Likewise, what the average musician here thinks about my stuff is irrelevant. I would place far more value on your opinion, or Cooter's, or a few other guys seasoned here, than some 20 year old kid with two years experience in an all original metal band.

 

 

Isnt that why these ppl are posting here asking for critisism etc? Because they "want the opinions of people who do what I do but are more successful at it and are further down the road going in the same direction I want to go"?

[js1]

I don't get this thread. If this is such a problem, why not suggest that the music be posted to Craig's "Is your music any good?" sticky thread? Those who want to help can, those who don't won't have their sensibilities threatened or offended. Or start an "Is your band any good?" sticky in this forum.

Sounds to me if that most of the supposed offenders are young. I couldn't have honestly evaluate myself at that age. There was nothing like putting yourself in a position where you could be critiqued to bring it all crashing home. And if you don't have any peers that you can trust, where are you going to go?

One of the things that age can bring is the ability to better evaluate yourself. Somehow, seems a poor exchange for hair loss.

When I listen to stuff now that I did back when I was young, I am rather unhappy at how I was deluding myself about some aspects of my music. But (and here's the thing), I was also surprised at how good and fresh some of the ideas were, even if they were poorly executed.

Music needs more mentors, and fewer critics. Keep your ears open, and I bet that a lot of the rough stuff that you're complaining about has a gem in it somewhere. Help them find that gem.

js