Too Loud! a long rant

[dk123123dk]

You seem to have a distorted view of why a bar hires a band. Yes, your crowd came to see you. If you didn't have a draw, the bar would would have hired another band that does have a draw. The business of a bar is to sell alcohol, not to give you and your crowd a chance to play at having a concert. If the staff tells you that you're too loud, you're too loud. Unless you're the only band within 50 miles, there's no room for you to argue with the staff about your volume. Turn it down, lose the put-upon attitude, and check with the staff to make sure they're happy. Don't confuse volume with intensity. Intensity can be achieved with a great arrangement, a great mix, and great stage presence ... at any volume.

I agree about working with the bar staff. But I don't agree about volume. I went to see Incubus with my girlfriend, and during the distorted parts of Pardon Me, the band seemed to get quieter. It was an outdoor show, and we were in the back section, but I noticed several people saying that it should be louder. There was no punch.

dk

[ChordGirl]

Sounds to me like the neighbors don't like it when the venue occasionally has music . I'm sure they're not used to the noise, even if it's barely audible inside their homes. It probably wouldn't hurt you to turn it down to a low roar, but I doubt you'll satisfy the neighbor if he's used to silence in his back yard.

IMO, this is an issue that must be settled between the venue owner and the neighbor. The venue owner has to adhere to the neighborhood noise ordinance, whatever that may be, or risk losing his liquor/business license. A DB meter is exactly what might be needed here--but it's not your band's place to measure the noise. It's the venue owner's job. You need to keep the volume within those specifications.

[wades_keys]

I agree about working with the bar staff. But I don't agree about volume. I went to see Incubus with my girlfriend, and during the distorted parts of Pardon Me, the band seemed to get quieter. It was an outdoor show, and we were in the back section, but I noticed several people saying that it should be louder. There was no punch. dk

How are you going to compare an outdoor concert by a big name act to a local band playing a gig in a small room?

[TieDyedDevil]

I agree about working with the bar staff. But I don't agree about volume. I went to see Incubus with my girlfriend, and during the distorted parts of Pardon Me, the band seemed to get quieter. It was an outdoor show, and we were in the back section, but I noticed several people saying that it should be louder. There was no punch.

 

 

Distortion decreases dynamics. Punch requires dynamics.

[theAntihero]

Did you say you use a 120 watt amp w/volume at 9 0'clock? Crikey, I use a 40 watt Fender HRD and I only turn it up to 3-4, or less than 1/4 of the way open, and it's PLENTY loud. You're in Spokane, right? I'd be happy to come and check you out and give you my input on your volume if you'd like. I'd like to see you guys anyway and it's be a great excuse to get me out of the house.

Ive played A HRD before, they can be quite loud. This is a Triple XXX with the main volume at 9 oclock and the channel volumes varing widely from noon to up a bit more.

Actually we're from Priest River ID, and thats where this particular bar is. Its called the Kings Bar and Grill and it looks like we are playing there again on oct 17th. I have to confirm the date monday, but id love to have the extra input if you'd like to come out. Ill PM you when i can confirm.

Wrong. Hell, a 50 watt guitar amp can be too loud in those circumstances.

Guitar amps, especially non master volume tube amps, are much louder than a 400w solid state PA system. I have one of the 50w, we were no when near that volume. I understand what you're saying though.

Did you just say that because you have a different mix on stage than what is in the house, you clearly were not all that loud? Really?

Im standing next to my amp at chest level, my drummers drumset is 5 feet away and my bass players amp is pointed at me along with our moniter mix. If i can hear someone 20 ft away in that set of conditions, we're not that loud. Nothing but vocals are thru the mains and they werent mixed well above the band.

Not to be contrary with some opinions here, but I think there's a way to use a dB meter in a cooperative way. Use it as an aide to get along with the management. First off, knowing that you are indeed below 80dB at 75 ft. or whatever it is, that's handy info. Not for proving yourself but to help you adhere to some guidelines. Second, find a level that the management can accept in the house and note the reading. Now don't go over it. While I agree that using a meter to get in people's face or to prove your point can backfire, you can actually use one to help yourself provide what the management wants. Note: Use the A scale wighting setting as opposed to the C scale if you can. A is less sensitive to low end and will give a less erratic readout. Things like kick drums won't have it jumping all over the place

Like i said its more about info and the neighbor. If he does call the cops again i can tell the nice police man that we're not breaking the law, keeping me and the bar out of trouble. Im not using it in a confortational way.

Im not worried about most the staff, in fact it looks like one of our fans that i didnt know worked there is gonna be bartending instead of the one that thought we were to loud.. Nor am i worried about the owner who liked everything all around, we turned down a bit on the 2nd set to appease her and after that it was all good. Im also gonna have us set up at a bit more of an angle so we are facing about half the tables, the end of the bar and the pool tables rather than pointed directly at the bar. I dont mind working with the bar at all, i just dont like to deal with the expectation of the one bartender who thinks that live bands can be talked over in a normal conversational voice, especially a rock band. An acoustic duo i can see, but not a rock band.

Don't confuse volume with intensity. Intensity can be achieved with a great arrangement, a great mix, and great stage presence ... at any volume.

When you hear a good song on the radio do you turn it down than say "I marvel at this bands great arrangement, mix and intensity"? No you dont. You turn it up. Added volume, to a point, adds a visceral energy to the music. It makes it hit more senses than just your hearing. This doesnt mean so loud its painful, but it also has to be more than 60dbs.

Sounds to me like the neighbors don't like it when the venue occasionally has music . I'm sure they're not used to the noise, even if it's barely audible inside their homes. It probably wouldn't hurt you to turn it down to a low roar, but I doubt you'll satisfy the neighbor if he's used to silence in his back yard.

Yep, thats what im thinking as well, no matter what volume it is, its gonna be too loud which is why im gonna bring a db meter. This way i have proof for the authorities that im not breaking the law.

IMO, this is an issue that must be settled between the venue owner and the neighbor. The venue owner has to adhere to the neighborhood noise ordinance, whatever that may be, or risk losing his liquor/business license. A DB meter is exactly what might be needed here--but it's not your band's place to measure the noise. It's the venue owner's job. You need to keep the volume within those specifications.

I agree here as well, but i doubt she's gonna buy one so im just gonna spring for the $50 and get a meter.

Distortion decreases dynamics. Punch requires dynamics.

Distortion creates dynamics, especially so in the music i play, which isnt acoustic nor soft.

[MikeScalf]

please explain what a custom amp shield is

Gladly!

I didn't like the clear plastic shields, so I built this one.

I took a 2'X4" piece of masonite and cut it in half. (2) 2X2 sections.

Attached a piano style hindge and then used high grade spray glue on (2) pieces of 2" high density foam (from Joann's fabrics store) to the pannels.

I then used a electric carving knife (like mama used to carve the turkey!) to cut 45 deg. angles on the foam so it could fold around the front of the amp.

When I need to move it, the pannels fold together, back to back, so it's only 2' X 2' and I can slip it into a custom canvas bag my wife made up for me.

Now I have also made a amp mic holder that fits under the handle and holds the mic perfectly in place for running through FOH. (I haven't uploaded the pics of it to my computer yet, but I will if you want to see it.)

I get all the tone I need coming up from the amp, and my bandmates are very happy.

Here are pics of it in our rehearsal studio.

[wades_keys]

Im standing next to my amp at chest level, my drummers drumset is 5 feet away and my bass players amp is pointed at me along with our moniter mix. If i can hear someone 20 ft away in that set of conditions, we're not that loud. Nothing but vocals are thru the mains and they werent mixed well above the band.

If you already know all of the answers:
Why ask the question?
Why are you getting volume complaints?

You're still in denial.

That's cool.

Go get some more gigs and see how it goes.

Some cats never seem to get a clue about what they sound like out front: sometimes it doesn't matter, believe it or not.

Are you the guitarist?

I notice you mention bass and drums but you don't mention guitar.

It's a good chance that it's YOU and your amp that are shredding faces.

Do this: Setup your amp the way you always do. PUt it on 9 o'clock, which I'm sorry dude but that's gonna be piercing as all {censored} in a small room. Then let someone else rip away while you go stand out front: walk around. Tell me what you hear: be honest.

And while you're playing, do you ever look out at the audience? Lotta guitarists don't: neck gaze and all that fun {censored}. Well, start paying attention to the people in your line of fire. Look at their faces.

Seriously.

Try it: get some good, honest ears out front and get clued in on your mix. IS your guitar the loudest thing in the mix? Is your mix even as you walk around the room, is is your guiatr loud as {censored} in front of the stage and decent volume off to the side (i bet it is)

You know, the real solution is running your amp through PA, even in the small rooms. I'm telling ya; I've played a lot of gigs both ways and the best overall is lower amp volume and mic'ed through PA.

One last thing: the volume at the start of the set should be the same at the end.

Your ears will lie to you after a while: if the mix was good at soundcheck then it must be good the whole night - as long as your drummer and bassist are consistent with their volume.

Take care: all this stuff I'm telling you I've done myself.

THe best is getting a good set of ears out front that is willing to give you the straight answer about the mix: I've had 2 different experienced guitarists/soundman come to our shows to do just this; it's eye opening some times.

DOn't think this applies to soft music or lounge bands either: you want a good mix, then get a good mix.

You CAN'T know what your mix sounds like while you're up on that stage. There is no "volume" problem, it's a mix problem: your whole band has to be on the same page volume wise.

[theAntihero]

If you already know all of the answers: Why ask the question? Why are you getting volume complaints? You're still in denial. That's cool. Go get some more gigs and see how it goes. Some cats never seem to get a clue about what they sound like out front: sometimes it doesn't matter, believe it or not. Later.

 

 

I wasnt really asking a question here, although i did get some good advice, i was more venting than anything. Ive played my fair share of gigs and mostly never had to worry about volume, but i dont think im ever gonna please the neighbor nor the one bartender, both have fairly unreasonable expectations.

[dk123123dk]

How are you going to compare an outdoor concert by a big name act to a local band playing a gig in a small room?

Dude I wasn't really comparing an outdoor show to a local bar band.

I was talking about how the lack of punch (in any environment) can ruin the experience for everyone. Esp with certain styles of music.

I agree with you about making sure that the staff can do their job, and working with the staff rather than working against them.

To the OP, point your amp at your head. You should be able to lower the volume a bit to keep the staff happy, and you should still be able to hear yourself well.

dk

[soapbladder]

Its not for the staff, the owner and most of the staff were fine with the volume along with the crowd. Its for the neighbor when they call the cops for the billionth time.

I'm a neighbor of a place in a residential neighborhood, that has loud shows on weekdays. If the bass keeps me up after 11 when I have to get up at 5am to work, I'm gonna call the cops (the owners don't give a {censored}, tried the civil approach). It feels weird being the old man shouting at the kids to get off the lawn, but...

If the owner is asking you to turn down, do it. Deep bass tones are especially resistant to sound proofing... Doesn't matter if you're technically in violation, the cops will come when they are called and the owner doesn't want the hassle.

Anyway.

SB

[theAntihero]

If you already know all of the answers: Why ask the question? Why are you getting volume complaints? You're still in denial. That's cool. Go get some more gigs and see how it goes. Some cats never seem to get a clue about what they sound like out front: sometimes it doesn't matter, believe it or not. Are you the guitarist? I notice you mention bass and drums but you don't mention guitar. It's a good chance that it's YOU and your amp that are shredding faces. Do this: Setup your amp the way you always do. PUt it on 9 o'clock, which I'm sorry dude but that's gonna be piercing as all {censored} in a small room. Then let someone else rip away while you go stand out front: walk around. Tell me what you hear: be honest. And while you're playing, do you ever look out at the audience? Lotta guitarists don't: neck gaze and all that fun {censored}. Well, start paying attention to the people in your line of fire. Look at their faces. Seriously. Try it: get some good, honest ears out front and get clued in on your mix. IS your guitar the loudest thing in the mix? Is your mix even as you walk around the room, is is your guiatr loud as {censored} in front of the stage and decent volume off to the side (i bet it is) You know, the real solution is running your amp through PA, even in the small rooms. I'm telling ya; I've played a lot of gigs both ways and the best overall is lower amp volume and mic'ed through PA. One last thing: the volume at the start of the set should be the same at the end. Your ears will lie to you after a while: if the mix was good at soundcheck then it must be good the whole night - as long as your drummer and bassist are consistent with their volume. Take care: all this stuff I'm telling you I've done myself. THe best is getting a good set of ears out front that is willing to give you the straight answer about the mix: I've had 2 different experienced guitarists/soundman come to our shows to do just this; it's eye opening some times. DOn't think this applies to soft music or lounge bands either: you want a good mix, then get a good mix. You CAN'T know what your mix sounds like while you're up on that stage. There is no "volume" problem, it's a mix problem: your whole band has to be on the same page volume wise.

Why do you post something then come back 15 minutes later and add to it?

Seriously you seem to be taking this more personally than i am.

In my bands case i have the spouses of the drummer and guitarist out in the audience to help us with the mix, both have been to a lot of gigs and are know what sound we are going for.On top of that we had a friend who was a regular at the bar come out and give us his 2 cents as well.

Yes i am the guitarist and yes i did mention my guitar volume. I have a long chord and walk about up front as we play to also check the mix. Yes i am louder than the bass and drums, but thats usually how it goes in a power trio.

I do look out at the audience as well, we had a couple tables in direct fire of the band and before we played there was only a few there, after we started playing the tables filled up, mostly moving from other tables out of direct fire.

Our small Pa really isnt set up for sound reinforcement, although i have used it as such before, so in a small club i rarely mike the instruments as they really dont need them and it does sound better in a small enviroment.

Seriously i see what you're saying here and i appreciate the advice but theres no need to be so intense, i dont know if a loud band ate your puppy once or what but there's no need to take it so personal.

[Hegmatronicon]

Doesn't matter if you're technically in violation, the cops will come when they are called and the owner doesn't want the hassle. Anyway. SB

 

 

Thats pretty much what i was getting at. Even if you are within the legal limits - the cops can still get the {censored}s and shut you/them down for the night or longer if they so desire.

[theAntihero]

I'm a neighbor of a place in a residential neighborhood, that has loud shows on weekdays. If the bass keeps me up after 11 when I have to get up at 5am to work, I'm gonna call the cops (the owners don't give a {censored}, tried the civil approach). It feels weird being the old man shouting at the kids to get off the lawn, but... If the owner is asking you to turn down, do it. Deep bass tones are especially resistant to sound proofing... Doesn't matter if you're technically in violation, the cops will come when they are called and the owner doesn't want the hassle. Anyway. SB

 

 

I hear you about keeping you awake and such, bass waves are a bitch to control. From what ive been told this guy moved in a little while back and calls the cops on everything. One guy lives about a block away and the neighbor called the cops because he mowed his lawn at 7pm and other petty things, plus this is a weekend and a club that rarely has live bands anyway.

[WynnD]

Don't know about you, but I've been in bands that were too loud with a 100 watt pa. On the other hand, in one club every time I picked up my trumpet and played it un-mic'd the club owner would come up and tell us to turn down. Volume is a relative issue. I've been in bands that worked at juke box levels. (Think the juke boxes are louder now.) They were always able to play louder. The loud bands could never find a way to get quieter. (And still sound good.) And loud bands don't get very many of those very high paying weddings. (Not that everyone wants to do them, but the money can be very nice.)

[BlueStrat]

 

Actually we're from Priest River ID, and thats where this particular bar is.

 

 

I love Priest River, and frequently ride up there on my motorcycle (41 to 2/200, over to the bridge and take Spirit Lake cutoff back home or go on to Sandpoint and down 95). We sometimes stop at King's for a burger. It's a fair sized room, as I recall. Unfortunately, it has houses fairly close to the back of it, if I remember correctly. Anyway, keep me posted as the date gets close. I'll try to make it up if I'm not booked.

[WynnD]

80 dbc at 75 feet. If you were playing outdoors the formula is a 6 db increase every time you cut the distance in half. so that works out to about a 30 db drop from the 3 foot sound level. So if you have a pretty efficient system that produces 100 db at 3 feet at 1 watt you'll reach those levels by the time you're using 10 watts a pa speaker. (Remember I'm talking about outdoors. Indoors less power is needed to get the same effect.) Get or borrow a db meter and get to know it at rehearsal. You'll probably want to work your stage volume down to 100 db just to be safe. It's much easier to turn up and still sound good than it is to turn down and still sound good. The whole thing is a good exercise in control and cooperation. (If you can't do this at rehearsal, maybe you shouldn't go back there.) And yes there are lots of places that want some level of volume control out of their bands. Some will tell you and others just will never have you back.

[wades_keys]

Seriously i see what you're saying here and i appreciate the advice but theres no need to be so intense, i dont know if a loud band ate your puppy once or what but there's no need to take it so personal.

 

Dude, I was half asleep when I wrote that: about as far from intense and personal as possible.

 

Remember: this is just words on the internet - you can't know how I feel and I can't know how you feel, unless we start insulting each other.

 

Did I insult you?

[vanlatte]

Remember: this is just words on the internet - you can't know how I feel and I can't know how you feel, unless we start insulting each other.

You poopy head!

[Kramerguy]

 

We did turn down a bit after the first set, much to the dismay of some of the patrons

 

 

Seriously.. you are kidding yourself. You might have been lucky that ONE bar "tolerated" your volume with only a mention afterwords... But you play out at 10 other bars (assuming small-medium sized), 7 of them will rag you all night to turn it down, two will just tell you to shut down and leave, and ONE will not say anything (the one you played in).. the other 9 by the way, will NOT ask you to come back, and will dodge any future calls for bookings.

 

I've read your other posts in this thread and you are very defensive, but you really should take a step back and realize that the "in your face" rock only works in arenas. People are offering this advice to you because most of us have personally witnessed or been in bands like this.

 

Your drummer needs to learn volume control, and the band needs to learn that they are just as guilty if they are turning the amps to 11.

[BlueStrat]

I know the bar he played in and the town. I believe they were probably there to hear the band, based on my experience with the area.

[theAntihero]

I love Priest River, and frequently ride up there on my motorcycle (41 to 2/200, over to the bridge and take Spirit Lake cutoff back home or go on to Sandpoint and down 95). We sometimes stop at King's for a burger. It's a fair sized room, as I recall. Unfortunately, it has houses fairly close to the back of it, if I remember correctly. Anyway, keep me posted as the date gets close. I'll try to make it up if I'm not booked.

 

 

Ill let you know,love to have you come out. Kings isnt a tiny room, its not huge by any means either though. The main problem is everything is so reflective in the bar, there's wood paneling, glass and a hardwood ceiling, so it's an odd room for sound. Also there are a couple houses close, you're right.

[theAntihero]

Did I insult you?

 

 

No, it just seems like you're making a bigger deal out of than i am.

 

 

Seriously.. you are kidding yourself. You might have been lucky that ONE bar "tolerated" your volume with only a mention afterwords... But you play out at 10 other bars (assuming small-medium sized), 7 of them will rag you all night to turn it down, two will just tell you to shut down and leave, and ONE will not say anything (the one you played in).. the other 9 by the way, will NOT ask you to come back, and will dodge any future calls for bookings. I've read your other posts in this thread and you are very defensive, but you really should take a step back and realize that the "in your face" rock only works in arenas. People are offering this advice to you because most of us have personally witnessed or been in bands like this. Your drummer needs to learn volume control, and the band needs to learn that they are just as guilty if they are turning the amps to 11.

 

 

Ive played at many bars over the years, this is probably the 3rd time ive had a problem with volume. I will reiterate, the owner is happy, the crowd was happy, the hypersensitive neighbor was the problem as was the bartender who wondered why people had to raise their voices

 

Im not on 11, im at 9 o'clock on my amp. We have a 400w PA thats not pegged, im not running the drummer thru the PA to control his volume.

 

Im not trying to be defensive here, but honestly im starting to wonder if some people are even reading what ive wrote. Im just restating what ive said thru the posts. I wasnt really looking for advice, just ranting a bit, but i do appreciate the advice im getting.

 

 

80 dbc at 75 feet. If you were playing outdoors the formula is a 6 db increase every time you cut the distance in half. so that works out to about a 30 db drop from the 3 foot sound level. So if you have a pretty efficient system that produces 100 db at 3 feet at 1 watt you'll reach those levels by the time you're using 10 watts a pa speaker. (Remember I'm talking about outdoors. Indoors less power is needed to get the same effect.) Get or borrow a db meter and get to know it at rehearsal. You'll probably want to work your stage volume down to 100 db just to be safe. It's much easier to turn up and still sound good than it is to turn down and still sound good. The whole thing is a good exercise in control and cooperation. (If you can't do this at rehearsal, maybe you shouldn't go back there.) And yes there are lots of places that want some level of volume control out of their bands. Some will tell you and others just will never have you back.

 

 

I bought a meter today, so ill take some readings and see what we read at at our next practice. Good info to know though, thanks.

[badhabit]

I play in all sorts of situations. Sometimes, we're asked to turn down. It's usually because our PA speakers are up too loud. We just turn the PA master volume down and that usually fixes it. I use a 15 watt princeton reverb with a 10" Weber speaker. It's not LOUD but in a certain venue, it could be. It's the tiny bars that have the volume problems usually. I wonder why they booked a band in the first place. I recall one place that complained when the drummer was using brushes and the sax player wasn't even on mic. We turned the PA off and just played quiet instrumentals. They still weren't happy. Live music will ALWAYS be louder than a crappy little MUZAK jukebox thing. I'm not talking about a DJ rig. I do think some clubs expect a band with drums to be able to play at extremely quiet volumes. And that can be done, IF you're playing jazz or old pop tunes. Not Rock N' Roll though. And if the bar is within 25 to 30 ft of the band, of course the patrons will have to yell to be heard. If the place had NO band but was full of people talking loud, one would still need to yell to have their order heard. NO, some places should not have bands with drummers. Instead, perhaps acoustic duos or trios. I also think the staff in some places are annoyed by musicians and bands. We need to win the staff over by acknowledging them and assisting them in the ways things go inside the bar. I know our band does try. But some staff, just like some bands and musicians, are just difficult people to get along with.

[WynnD]

Live music will ALWAYS be louder than a crappy little MUZAK jukebox thing.

 

 

It is possible to play R&R at jukebox levels. It's very hard to do it and sound good. Consider it a challenge that most musicians aren't up to. A few drummers I've worked with can play brushes at a whisper level, most can't. Alto sax can be a bit loud or grating even without a mic. Tenor's not so much.

 

I agree that a club where jukebox levels are expected, shouldn't be having normal bands or should be willing to pay a serious premium for a band that can handle the job. (Some of the current jukeboxes are set fairly loud. Not my idea of background music.)

[theAntihero]

I also think the staff in some places are annoyed by musicians and bands. We need to win the staff over by acknowledging them and assisting them in the ways things go inside the bar. I know our band does try. But some staff, just like some bands and musicians, are just difficult people to get along with.

 

 

I think this is what it basically comes down to. I just fround out that the bartender mentioned to one of our friends that she only liked country music. My band is not country by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

It is possible to play R&R at jukebox levels. It's very hard to do it and sound good. Consider it a challenge that most musicians aren't up to. A few drummers I've worked with can play brushes at a whisper level, most can't. Alto sax can be a bit loud or grating even without a mic. Tenor's not so much. I agree that a club where jukebox levels are expected, shouldn't be having normal bands or should be willing to pay a serious premium for a band that can handle the job. (Some of the current jukeboxes are set fairly loud. Not my idea of background music.)

 

 

My last drummer could play at whisper volumes, and while it was an intereting skill to hone, it wasnt exactly fun.

 

My current drummer is good at a lot of things, but being quiet is not one of them. He's not extremly loud, maybe a bit above average, but i seriously doubt i could get him into lounge jazz sound level territory.

 

I think we've got everything worked out though, we're gonna set up different and see what else we can do. I have a DB meter and ill use it at practice this week and we'll take some measurements at the gig. But there is no way we are gonna be able to be so quiet you can talk over us, hopefully the bartender wont be there this time or will at least be in a better mood.