10,000 hours

[musicchic]

http://recoveringhopper.blogspot.com/2010/02/10000-hours.html

 

Interesting... but there must be exceptions... and they are referring to classical musicians so not sure if that makes a big difference.

 

So how old were you when you started playing and/or singing?

[mattosu]

I've read this same concept, explained in detail, by Daniel Levitin in the book "This Is Your Brain on Music". That being said, I started messing around with a guitar at age 21, am now 26. Looks like I've got a loooooong way to go.

[toddkuen]

On the computer/IT side I think its about right - 5 years of serious learning commitment (full time) gets you a real job because you know what you are doing.

 

Same for music as far as I can see...

[mr3lions]

Very interesting. I would also put a lot of stock into the part about why one person gets more out of a practice session than another. Content of practice is a BIG factor.

[Lee Flier]

Yup, I've read Outliers and that analysis seemed spot-on.

 

I'm positive that I averaged at least 8 hours a day (between practicing and later gigging and/or recording) for the first 5-6 years that I played. Guitar, that is... I played other instruments (piano, violin) as a little kid but I didn't spend nearly as much time practicing. Once I picked up a guitar, at age 12, that was it. I was obsessed.

 

Richard Thompson says he still practices 8 hours a day at age 60. No wonder he doesn't stop getting better.

[mnash]

 

I've read this same concept, explained in detail, by Daniel Levitin in the book "This Is Your Brain on Music".

 

 

Great book, fascinating look at the biology of music. The "10,000 hour rule" was particularly interesting, and somewhat liberating, too, in the sense that it's an entirely unachievable goal at this stage in the game. It's helped me to be ok with my place. I'll never be at the top, but hopefully not too close to the bottom, either.

 

With gigs and practice, I've got maybe 4,000 or 5,000 hours in. At the rate I'm going I'll be a master when I'm around 65, just in time to retire.

 

I can't wait.

[bassred]

 

Great book, fascinating look at the biology of music. The "10,000 hour rule" was particularly interesting, and somewhat liberating, too, in the sense that it's an entirely unachievable goal at this stage in the game. It's helped me to be ok with my place. I'll never be at the top, but hopefully not too close to the bottom, either. With gigs and practice, I've got maybe 4,000 or 5,000 hours in. At the rate I'm going I'll be a master when I'm around 65, just in time to retire. I can't wait.

 

I've got that book on my Kindle right now. I think I'm 40% into it. Really enjoying it.

 

I have no idea how many hours I've got in... Probably not as many as I would first think. I may have to calculate this, just for fun.

[Sarricola_Sauce]

I love Outliers. I use a lot of anecdotes with my students (i'm a guitar teacher fulltime).

 

I think the moral of the story is that ALL humans can accomplish amazing things when they're given the right tools. I tell my kids at work that there are no shortcuts. You need your 3 hours a day. PERIOD. As someone who has taught near a thousand students I can say I've never once really seen a kid just 'had it'. I've seen kids who 'got really good really fast...'. Those kids played 4+ hours a day.

 

It's no secret. You need your 10000 hours. ALWAYS.

 

I'm 26 now. I know for a fact i've got way above my ten thousand hours logged in playing. I can honestly say I have a solid 6K+ hours logged. If I haul ass I can get the 4 thousand in by the time I'm thirty.

 

One of my favorite stories in the book is about the Beatle's playing in hamburg. The Beatles HAD TO BE GOOD and they HAD TO BE FAMOUS. No other group of four kids in the world were able to get those hours logged AND be the right age at the crucial time in musical history for them to get discovered. The story about Bill Gates pretty much states the same thing.

[klrbee03]

I've been playing since I was 14, 42 now. Thats 28 years (scary).

 

28 years = 10,220 days

 

So if I've averaged out 1 hour per day for the entire time I've played guitar I'd be Michael Jordan. I probably averaged 3 or more for the first few years. Unfortunately I went about 12 years without touching it, so that killed my average. I did 3 hours last night

[Lee Knight]

I played a house band gig when I was a senior in high school. Fake ID. At 17 I was playing 5 nights a week and going to school in the morning. That summer, the band decided to get serious and we practiced 5 days a week all day long while gigging full time at night. We wrote, we arranged. We sang parts till they were right. I earned my living full time like that for a decade and a half.

 

I didn't stop that pace until I was 30.

[Lee Flier]

Yup. It really makes me scratch my head when people think there are shortcuts to getting good. There aren't. It's a hell of a lot of work, and of course no guarantee of "success" financially even if you put the work in. But if you don't... forget it.

 

So you'd best enjoy what you're doing and really have a passion for it!

[Blue Collar Dad]

I'm 41 years old now and at times get frustrated at my lack off progress. I've bought countless books and video's and totaly beleive in the 10,000 hour rule. No amount of reading and watching of video's is going to replace that practice time.

[JoeDirt]

At my age (40) practicing drumming 3+ hours a day just physically isn't even possible for me anymore. Tennis elbow is a real bitch.

 

I'd love to play that much (provided I had the time) but unless someone has a miracle cure for tendinitis that I am not aware of it then it is not happening.

[TrickyBoy]

The thing to keep in mind about this study is that these students had all logged their 10,000 hours by around the age of 20. Obviously the benefits of this concentrated practice is going to be much greater than someone who has logged 30 minutes a day for 50 years.

 

The encouraging part of the whole thing is not the 10,000 hour number, but that there is a direct correlation between amount of practice and skill. If you want to get better, it ain't brain surgery. Pick up yer guitar and play!

[Lee Knight]

 

The thing to keep in mind about this study is that these students had all logged their 10,000 hours by around the age of 20. Obviously the benefits of this concentrated practice is going to be much greater than someone who has logged 30 minutes a day for 50 years. The encouraging part of the whole thing is not the 10,000 hour number, but that there is a direct correlation between amount of practice and skill. If you want to get better, it ain't brain surgery. Pick up yer guitar and play!

 

 

 

Exactly.

[TrickyBoy]

On the positive side, I am just 60 hours away from complete mastery of beer drinking.

[Eddie]

It is NOT just about the hours, but hours of deliberate, conscientious practice.

I first read about this in this magazine from 2006:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-expert-mind

I only have that issue and bought it after browsing the article. Unfortunately the full text is no longer available for free.

 

From what I recall, this conscientious practice is the biggest factor in determining mastery. It is not intelligence or talent, but effortful study.

Also, from what I recall, they talked about 10 years. (Just checked and it is 10-years indeed).

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1717927,00.html

 

"Ericsson's primary finding is that rather than mere experience or even raw talent, it is dedicated, slogging, generally solitary exertion

[diagrammatiks]

there's always going to be the occasional prodigy like mozart or what not but ya. more practice is good. even if you're talented more practice makes it even better.

 

And even then if we say that regular "gifted talent" shaves what like 5000 hours off...that's still a lot of remaining hours.

[=JL=]

Getting to be good at anything takes a lot of work, it's inescapable and no real surprise. I've lost count over the years of the number of times lazy people have told me I'm "lucky" to be talented. Actually, the lucky part was that I'm such an obsessive that practicing was never a chore, the discovery and exploration constantly excites me.

It's also often assumed that it's easier to learn when you're young. I've often wondered whether we really do lose the edge as we get older, or whether it's simply that adult responsibilities just get in the way.

[karlw]

 

there's always going to be the occasional prodigy like mozart or what not but ya. more practice is good. even if you're talented more practice makes it even better.

 

 

Not really, IMO. "Talent" only gives you the drive to do it. Mozart (and others like him) have an all-consuming drive to do the work. The work is still required.

 

 

And even then if we say that regular "gifted talent" shaves what like 5000 hours off...that's still a lot of remaining hours.

 

 

Doesn't shave any time at all. The greatest musicians in the world are great because of the work effort, period. Something made them choose "this" instead of "that" but no matter what, all of the work is still required.

[John Bartus]

Those here who said it's not just the hours put in are exactly right. It's a combination of talent, drive, and the quality of those hours of practice. It also helps if a person starts very early. Playing violin is a great example of this. The left hand technique is far from natural, and it's much better to train the muscles, tendons, and bones to adapt to this at a a young age. That's why not many people "take up" the violin later in life (although I do know a couple of people who did).

 

In my case, there was a chord organ and a piano in our house as I was growing up. I was never really serious about them, but I had an ear for music and I taught myself basic theory and chord progressions by just fooling around. It wasn't until I got my first guitar at the age of 15 that the drive to "get good" kicked in. I practiced 4-5 hours a day, and was playing shows five months after getting the guitar for Christmas 1976. I devoured everything I could find in the acoustic singer-songwriter world -- chords, songs, fingerpicking -- and for years, the guitar and I were constant companions. In college, although I wasn't a music major, I spent many hours trying to polish my piano skills as well. My heroes were people like James Taylor, Bob Dylan, and especially those who were good at both piano and guitar like Jackson Browne, Paul McCartney, and Dan Fogelberg.

 

That was also when I discovered the wonderful world of electric guitar and the magic of major, minor, and blues scales. A new door had opened. After college, I started earning my living full time in music. From 1976 until 1982 (my first full time year as a working musician), I had put in around 9,000 hours in practice and performance time. Since then, I've performed on average 4-5 nights per week. I have a studio where I work on my music and some outside projects. And I'm still learning by going to concerts, watching the masters, reading, writing songs, and still picking up the guitar and woodshedding when I need to work something out. Someday, I might actually "get good."

[Bajazz]

 

there's always going to be the occasional prodigy like mozart or what not but ya. more practice is good. even if you're talented more practice makes it even better. And even then if we say that regular "gifted talent" shaves what like 5000 hours off...that's still a lot of remaining hours.

I recommend you to read the book. The point and conclusion of this is research is that it really takes 10 000 hours. Period! There are no shortcuts. There is no withborn "gifted talent" that will make you accomplish 10 000 hours work in 5000 hours. The story about Mozart being born musicial genious is a myth. Mozart DID practice 10 000 hours before entering mastery!!!

 

Anyway it's fun to see that guitarist often seem to accept this fact without problems. But when I posted a link to another article referring to the same research on the Singers forum, there was a riot!!!! I felt totally alone about experiencing that learning to sing took practice. Most others on the singers forum seem to be living in their own world being totally convinced that a good singer only can be great by the gods gift of "natural talent" or the right genes.

[Eddie]

Although 10,000 hours may be a bit misleading. From Levitin's book:

 

"Ten thousand hours is the equivalent to roughly three hours per day, or twenty hours per week, of practice over ten years...It seems that it takes the brain this long to assimilate all that it needs to know to achieve true mastery."

 

10 years is the time frame that has been mentioned since 1899 and research seems to support this. Levitin mentions this as well. I've read about 40 hours per week for 5 years, but I can't think of many examples in which a person truly achieved mastery in their field in 5 years.

[Bajazz]

It really doesn't matter if it was 6000 or 15000 hours. The excact number is just a number, and more years equals less hours a day, and MAYBE the focus is a bit less etc....

 

Anyhow the whole point is that a whole lot of practice is the ONLY thing that is common for mastery in anything!!! The point is that there has not been found any link between genetics or innate qualities: Only work.

 

This goes straight in the opposite direction of this genetics myth that many people have and that we all believe in in various degrees. It proves that all those people saying "either you got it or not" are totally wrong. The correct is "You need to earn it by working it!"

 

The 10k number is the hours you only put in if your dead serious and have a strong drive towards something. That's why they are considered masters, cause it's insane that anyone would be able to do this!!

[Eddie]

 

The point is that there has not been found any link between genetics or innate qualities: Only work.

 

 

That's not exactly true. Diligent practice is the biggest factor, but other things being equal (e.g., hours spent perfecting a craft), raw talent makes a difference as well. Often talent is wasted, though, and hard work certainly pays-off:

http://www.bored.com/findquotes/cate_740_Talent.html

 

10,000 hours is not insane at all. That's like 5 years at an average job. And some people with 5 years of experience still have a long way to go before they master their jobs. I know people who have spent way more than 10,000 perfecting their craft. Unfortunately I had to cancel an appointment with one such person tonight, who has been honing his craft for 35 years. And he had many other other activities as well.