Finally fired the prick!

[summit111]

My Brothers,

 

Our lead guitar player was out with a medical condition for about a year. We brought in a hot shot player recommended by several musicians. First few practices and gigs went well, then the Bully took over. Changing keys, openings, endings, and complaining about song selections.

 

He proceeded to fiddle with the sound board an mix at practice and gigs, all the while getting louder and louder. I measured 110db at practice. A great player, it became unbearable when:

 

He put out a tip jar at a private function and kept all the money for himself, claiming it was "His Jar." Enough was enough and I told him that our regular player was healthy enough and we were moving on without him. I should have nipped this in the bud early on, and will in the future!

[tim_7string]

That is a terrible situation! I'm glad you finally said enough is enough and canned his ass.

 

Bands are tricky beasts. It really does seem like sometimes it's just a matter of how much bull{censored} you're willing to put up with and for how long. I have dealt with that time and time again. I would quit bands in the past after a few months because it seemed like it was degenerating socially. Then I stuck it out waaaaay too long in other bands when I should have ran screaming the other direction.

 

Now, I think I have to go back to my original instincts and just bail quickly/fire someone immediately. Seems like those instincts were more dead on that way.

[Kino]

Oh wow. Shame someone would be so greedy for a bit of fame. Glad to hear that you have the original band back together!

[The dman]

 

My Brothers, He put out a tip jar at a private function and kept all the money for himself, claiming it was "His Jar."

 

 

Wow never heard of that one. That takes some balls

[SeniorBlues]

 

My Brothers, Our lead guitar player was out with a medical condition for about a year. We brought in a hot shot player recommended by several musicians. First few practices and gigs went well, then the Bully took over. Changing keys, openings, endings, and complaining about song selections. He proceeded to fiddle with the sound board an mix at practice and gigs, all the while getting louder and louder. I measured 110db at practice. A great player, it became unbearable when: He put out a tip jar at a private function and kept all the money for himself, claiming it was "His Jar." Enough was enough and I told him that our regular player was healthy enough and we were moving on without him. I should have nipped this in the bud early on, and will in the future!

 

 

This should be fun . . . let's play devils advocate.

 

The premise for some of these issues is that when you bring in a new player, he's a default sideman. The rest of you probably had considerable input in the song selection, keys, intro, outro, etc, right? He's a good player, but is deprived of the same artistic input that you all had??

 

I remember playing "Workin' On A Groovy Thing" (Fifth Dimension) many years ago. Sometime later I listened to the record again and realized our intro was a lame version of the original - like we had gone over it quickly without listening to it carefully. If a new player had come in who actually knew the song, and had shown us how the original went, it would taken a few minutes and sounded much better.

 

Key signatures should be about the singer and variety. I've played in my last 1st position "E" and "A" band, but we're talking about a guitar player, so there must have been some other reason. I wonder what it was?

 

Volume . . . . yeah but that's a common guitar player issue, right?

 

Tip jar? Pretty lame, but he probably figures you all should have been doing this all along, so he gets rewarded for taking the initiative.

 

Before this last stunt, did any of you try to sit him down and lay out the ground rules and the consequences for his attitude and behavior?

 

Flame suit ready . . . . .

[wades_keys]

This should be fun . . . let's play devils advocate. The premise for some of these issues is that when you bring in a new player, he's a default sideman. The rest of you probably had considerable input in the song selection, keys, intro, outro, etc, right? He's a good player, but is deprived of the same artistic input that you all had??

[Mermph]

He put out a tip jar at a private function and kept all the money for himself, claiming it was "His Jar."

 

 

 

That deserves a punch in the face at the very least.

 

How did he come so reccommended? Those musicians who recommended him might have been trying to sabotage you!

[wades_keys]

 

Key signatures should be about the singer and variety. I've played in my last 1st position "E" and "A" band, but we're talking about a guitar player, so there must have been some other reason.

 

That seems a bit elitist.

 

If the songs were originally done in the key of E or A, what's the problem?

 

Nothing is stopping you from working up songs in all 12 keys in your own time; you seem to be implying that playing songs in their original key or in "rock keys" will stifle you musically somehow.

 

I just don't get that mentality, and honestly I can't see that being successful for you in a non-jazz setting: you'll probably just piss off your band mates.

 

With all due respect, I get the sense that you are trying to impose jazz sensibilities onto rock/pop/dance settings. I can't see that working well for you - they're different worlds man.

[SeniorBlues]

That seems a bit elitist.

 

Everybody plays in their own style. Why would you want to label somebody who wants to play "Josie", "Can't Hide Love", or "How Deep in the Blues Do You Want to Go?" elitist?

 

If the songs were originally done in the key of E or A, what's the problem?

 

Boring repetition.

 

Nothing is stopping you from working up songs in all 12 keys in your own time; you seem to be implying that playing songs in their original key or in "rock keys" will stifle you musically somehow.

 

We've been through this before, but I'll say it again. Some keys are guitar friendly, some are keyboard friendly. You can do a second finger m3rd - M3rd "crush" going from sharp to natural. Can't do it in most guitar keys. Other issues, too. Bands wonder why they can't find keyboards. That's one of many reasons.

 

I just don't get that mentality, and honestly I can't see that being successful for you in a non-jazz setting: you'll probably just piss off your band mates.

 

That's true in cases where my band mates have no familiarity with jazz (or many styles of funk and R&B). Hence my comment about being done with "E" and "A" bands. I used to play with jazz players more talented than I and I'm determined to do it again.

 

With all due respect, I get the sense that you are trying to impose jazz sensibilities onto rock/pop/dance settings. I can't see that working well for you - they're different worlds man.

 

It took me a while to figure that out, but I'm sure you're aware that there are a boatload of songs where my style works just fine. It's hard to find people who want to go in that direction, but that's my current direction.

 

Let's go back to the OP . . . .

[wades_keys]

It took me a while to figure that out, but I'm sure you're aware that there are a boatload of songs where my style works just fine. It's hard to find people who want to go in that direction, but that's my current direction.

It's not the songs that are the issue. It's the band and the dynamic.

 

I like what you're trying to do, in concept: I'm all for bands bringing a little more musicality to the table, something that seems sorely lacking these days.

 

I'm just trying to give you some things to think about....

 

Example: you say "boring repetition" - if I had a bandmate in a non-jazz cover band say that, in all honesty I'd be looking to replace him/her with a quickness, because that to me just isn't the right attitude or approach.

 

Think about it: you're going to essentially try and force the whole band to relearn tunes in other keys, just so you can avoid "boring repetition".

 

So yeah, if that's your bag - make sure you've got jazz cats in your band, and not rock cats.

 

At that point it would be jazzer's playing rock or whatever.....nothing wrong with that and I'd come see you guys for sure.

[jeff42]

tip jar for the band... yes under certain circumstances.

 

tip jar="his jar"... I don't think so.

 

about 7 years ago, when we broke with our first guitarist and brought in someone else he made us go over certain songs that we were not playing right and made us a better band.

 

This may not be the case with you guys but with us our original guitarist took the easy way out of everything. Especially stuff he didn't like playing.

[newmaxnew]

I must have amazing luck! I have not been in a band with anyone that messed up.

 

The worst thing that ever happened to one of my bands was the second guitarist lost interest and stopped showing for rehearsals, so we worked up the tunes without him and booked shows without him and he didn't seem to care. I still have a Fender Bassman head he left at my house about 10 years ago.

 

Max

[chevybusa]

HOLY {censored}!!! Goddamn dude that sucks!!! Putting out a tip jar at a private gig and then claiming it was just for him, that has to be one of (if not THE) tackiest thing I've ever heard of in a band setting. Combined with all the other {censored} he was pulling I can't believe this guy came so highly recommended from other musos!!!! That really sucks.

[summit111]

My Brothers,

 

He was recommended as a "great musician" by the others, but he had an ego as big as the oil slick off Louisiana! Come to find out, he's really can't get along with other bands over a long term basis.

 

We had specific starts, stops, set lists, that work for us. We weren't interested in changing everything with our regular guitarist coming back. The way it happened was gradual. When he pulled one of his stunts, we'd look at each other and say, "What did he just do?" thinking it was an isolated incident.

 

I actually shortened our last gig because I had enough. Our regular guy is back and we're on track.

 

"His own tip jar, my ass!"

[SeniorBlues]

 

We had specific starts, stops, set lists, that work for us. We weren't interested in changing everything with our regular guitarist coming back.

 

 

Just curious. . . . Did he know that he was only in the band until your regular guy came back? Yeah, you should expect him to fit in without his insisting on the kinds of occasional adjustments I was talking about. He's basically a sub.

[tim_7string]

 

Just curious. . . . Did he know that he was only in the band until your regular guy came back? Yeah, you should expect him to fit in without his insisting on the kinds of occasional adjustments I was talking about. He's basically a sub.

 

 

Yep, it's pretty arrogant of someone to join an established band, knowing that a long-time member probably will return in the future, and start making changes. Heck, it's arrogant to do that even if you are permanently replacing someone!

 

Every band has their own style, their own sound, their own 'thing' they develop over the years. Most bands, when they look for someone to join their group, they are looking for a team player, someone that will fit into what they are already doing, not somebody who is going to radically change the entire group.

 

That was a mistake a past supervisor made at one of my jobs. He tried to change the entire company to be more like him instead of trying to fit in with the rest of us and assimilate like most normal people would. I liken it to a virus. Thankfully, he is no longer there.

 

Carl, I'm thinking you should probably put together your own group. I used to operate the way you do, not so much in the way of jazz chord voicings in a rock setting, but trying to "up" the standards of the group I joined, to make them better. Things like adding harmony vocals, working out good arrangements (an instrument not playing for a few seconds to create musical dynamics and tension). A lot of times, this was unwelcome input, because the band had already been playing a certain way and they resented my attempt to enhance what was going on. I either ended up quitting in frustration or they fired me.

 

However, whenever I formed my own bands and had my own vision, my own way of doing things implemented from the get-go, I noticed things were much easier and I was a lot happier. I didn't have to fight to get things done. I just did them and others followed suit. This is probably the way to go for you.

[theAntihero]

 

My Brothers, Our lead guitar player was out with a medical condition for about a year. We brought in a hot shot player recommended by several musicians. First few practices and gigs went well, then the Bully took over. Changing keys, openings, endings, and complaining about song selections. He proceeded to fiddle with the sound board an mix at practice and gigs, all the while getting louder and louder. I measured 110db at practice. A great player, it became unbearable when: He put out a tip jar at a private function and kept all the money for himself, claiming it was "His Jar." Enough was enough and I told him that our regular player was healthy enough and we were moving on without him. I should have nipped this in the bud early on, and will in the future!

 

 

 

And why the hell did you put up with this?

 

 

Boring repetition.

 

 

There is only so many chords and inversions you can play so at a certain point its all repetition. I hope to god you arent in one of those cover bands that AC/DC in new(to them) super hard Jazz chords and voicings.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Yep, it's pretty arrogant of someone to join an established band, knowing that a long-time member probably will return in the future, and start making changes. Heck, it's arrogant to do that even if you are permanently replacing someone! Every band has their own style, their own sound, their own 'thing' they develop over the years. Most bands, when they look for someone to join their group, they are looking for a team player, someone that will fit into what they are already doing, not somebody who is going to radically change the entire group. That was a mistake a past supervisor made at one of my jobs. He tried to change the entire company to be more like him instead of trying to fit in with the rest of us and assimilate like most normal people would. I liken it to a virus. Thankfully, he is no longer there. Carl, I'm thinking you should probably put together your own group. I used to operate the way you do, not so much in the way of jazz chord voicings in a rock setting, but trying to "up" the standards of the group I joined, to make them better. Things like adding harmony vocals, working out good arrangements (an instrument not playing for a few seconds to create musical dynamics and tension). A lot of times, this was unwelcome input, because the band had already been playing a certain way and they resented my attempt to enhance what was going on. I either ended up quitting in frustration or they fired me. However, whenever I formed my own bands and had my own vision, my own way of doing things implemented from the get-go, I noticed things were much easier and I was a lot happier. I didn't have to fight to get things done. I just did them and others followed suit. This is probably the way to go for you.

 

 

The word I used was occasional adjustments . . . hardly seems radical to me. We're talking about replacing a guitar player in this thread, but I wonder what percentage of the folks in this forum have ever successfully replaced a keyboard player. A few, maybe . . . . . very few.

 

Jazz voicings . . . it's a matter of playing in a band where the repertoire lends itself to them. Since getting back into playing, I've found two guitar players who've actually liked what I was doing (they're the ones you have to work with harmonically, of course). We've talked at length on this forum about how a lot of guitar players can't adjust to a keyboard - any keyboard - if they're not used to working with one. Basically I'm trying to find a guitar player who has a similar musical background, and I'm surprised at how much flack I'm taking from various people here for wanting musical compatibility. I like what I like, and won't apologize for it. The comment above this about there being only so many inversions - spend some time listening to Robben Ford. Then tell me you still believe that. Is it hard? Well, you've got to start somewhere . . . or not. Your choice; mine, too.

 

You've sensed that my trying to join an established R&R band hasn't worked very well. The truth is, every band I ever played in back when - one in HS, three in college, two full time on the road - were all start ups. I've never replaced anyone; no one has ever replaced me. Since the R&B project fell apart a couple weeks ago (not my fault . . . really), I've talked to three different guitar players (one was in that band) who might be interested in putting something together. It won't be rock and roll, although the guitar chair will be important. In two of the best bands I worked with years ago, the guitar chair was empty, strange as that may seem.

 

I'm still optimistic about finding something workable. Stay tuned.

[Chip Stewart]

 

The word I used was occasional adjustments . . . hardly seems radical to me. We're talking about replacing a guitar player in this thread, but I wonder what percentage of the folks in this forum have ever successfully replaced a keyboard player. A few, maybe . . . . . very few.

 

 

Ironically, I just replaced a keyboard player. I perform in a duo (vocals, guitar, and keyboard), so the keyboard is a big part of the sound. Like any thing of this nature, the key to making it work is negotiation. The new keyboardist brings his own style to the duo, but he also understands that people who come out to see me expect a certain type of experience. We're still working out the details, but it's going pretty good. The main difference between the two is the previous keyboardist only played the keyboard parts, while the new keyboardist prefers to play both keyboard parts and bass parts using a split keyboard. The keyboard parts tend to be simpler with the new keyboardist since he's only using one hand, but as long as he gets the important parts in it works. I think the sound of the duo will end up being different. Not better or worse, just different.

[SeniorBlues]

 

Ironically, I just replaced a keyboard player. I perform in a duo (vocals, guitar, and keyboard), so the keyboard is a big part of the sound. Like any thing of this nature, the key to making it work is negotiation. The new keyboardist brings his own style to the duo, but he also understands that people who come out to see me expect a certain type of experience. We're still working out the details, but it's going pretty good. The main difference between the two is the previous keyboardist only played the keyboard parts, while the new keyboardist prefers to play both keyboard parts and bass parts using a split keyboard. The keyboard parts tend to be simpler with the new keyboardist since he's only using one hand, but as long as he gets the important parts in it works. I think the sound of the duo will end up being different. Not better or worse, just different.

 

 

If you are willing to negotiate and expect stylistic differences, you're way ahead of the curve.

 

The easiest band I ever played with was a drums/keyboard duo. If I could find a versatile singing drummer in DC, I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

[fanuvbrak]

 

My Brothers, He was recommended as a "great musician" by the others, but he had an ego as big as the oil slick off Louisiana! Come to find out, he's really can't get along with other bands over a long term basis. We had specific starts, stops, set lists, that work for us. We weren't interested in changing everything with our regular guitarist coming back. The way it happened was gradual. When he pulled one of his stunts, we'd look at each other and say, "What did he just do?" thinking it was an isolated incident. I actually shortened our last gig because I had enough. Our regular guy is back and we're on track. "His own tip jar, my ass!"

 

 

 

Are you in New Orleans, by any chance?

[summit111]

 

Yep, it's pretty arrogant of someone to join an established band, knowing that a long-time member probably will return in the future, and start making changes. Heck, it's arrogant to do that even if you are permanently replacing someone! Every band has their own style, their own sound, their own 'thing' they develop over the years. Most bands, when they look for someone to join their group, they are looking for a team player, someone that will fit into what they are already doing, not somebody who is going to radically change the entire group.

 

 

My Brothers,

 

I was hired by an established New Orleans jazz group last year and I asked them why me? There are better drummers in this part of the country. The band leaders answer:

1. You show up on time, every time

2. You have professional equipment

3. You don't overplay

4. You get along with the guys

5. You know your place

 

Enough said!

[tim_7string]

 

My Brothers, I was hired by an established New Orleans jazz group last year and I asked them why me? There are better drummers in this part of the country. The band leaders answer: 1. You show up on time, every time 2. You have professional equipment 3. You don't overplay 4. You get along with the guys 5. You know your place Enough said!

 

 

Same here. Guys like us seem to be a dying breed, I tell ya...

[SeniorBlues]

 

5. You know your place

 

 

"Your place" varies from chair to chair and band to band. Expectations for drums and keyboard are often not the same. Also depends on the genre.

 

Most important, the band philosophy needs to be spelled out clearly on day one. I find that sorely lacking in nearly all the bands I've played with recently.

[tim_7string]

 

"Your place" varies from chair to chair and band to band. Expectations for drums and keyboard are often not the same. Also depends on the genre. Most important, the band philosophy needs to be spelled out clearly on day one. I find that sorely lacking in nearly all the bands I've played with recently.

 

 

Indeed. What is the protocol for a situation where I hired two guys to back me for a gig, then we form a band...but the bass player is now the guy booking the gigs and we're using his PA and lights? Am I joining those two guys? Are they joining me and I surrender part of my 'power'? Are we a three-way partnership (my perception, but probably not the reality of the situation)?

 

Knowing my place in that mess is kind of tough. All I know for sure is that if I'm not digging the situation (which is currently the case), I can start over from scratch, find another bassist and access my list of drummers that are willing to fill in as needed. Others may be perfectly fine being told to "play and shut up." I am not one of those people in my current band situation, but I certainly was in the band that played casinos.