Is the writing on the wall??

[Yer Blues]

At the start of this year I joined a band that was playing 4-5 gigs per month. However, these gigs started to dry up as a combination of (1) band members requiring a certain amount of pay and (2) lack of effort by all involved (no practices, no promo pack, no demo, etc). I suspect this band would have no trouble getting corner bar gigs, but they're not going to pay what they want.

 

Two of the guys have formed a duo and from the sounds of it have regularly bookings. The band only has two gigs booked the rest of the year. From talking to them it sounds like the duo has steady bookings. With the duo it is easier to get their minimal pay. I have no problem with that -- it is his band and he handls the bookings. But, almost every one of those gigs they invite me out to sit in for the night. I did it during one of their first gigs because at the time the duo was advertised as a secondary thing. The band was playing 4 times a month. Now, I sort of feel slighted when one of the reasons the band is not playing more is because they will not take less pay, but they expect me to come out and play for free?

 

I think the writing is on the wall for the full band, but do you think I am being over-sensitive in regards to them getting their minimal pay vs. me sitting in for free? Perhaps I am just redirecting the anger/upset over the band not working out when the only thing really stopping the band was the band itself.

[TotalPoser]

Sounds like they are fully dedicated to the duo thing and aren't interested in bringing you on as a paid member of such an act.

 

Writing is on the wall. It's time for you to move on.

[Howie22]

Sounds like they are booking the duo first and the band second, and are only concerned with their paycheck. Damned if I'd sit in for free.

[Vito Corleone]

Only YOU can decide whether you enjoy playing so much that you're willing to do it for free.

 

Personally, I'd never do that and would feel I was being taken advantage of, but that's your own call to make. Some guys simply love to play and don't care about the money AT ALL.

 

But it's pretty clear you are NOT on the same page as your band mates. You should probably be looking for another situation that fits in with what YOU want to do with your music.

[Yer Blues]

I think it's just easier to book the duo gigs. There are more of them available and the cost to the bar/restaurant is lower than a full band. I don't really see it as a conscious decision -- it's just easier. I would have had no issues in putting 1-2 gigs worth of money into promo material as it would likely lead to more gigs, but no one seemed to go for it.

 

I guess it will be time to start hitting the pavement again for the first time in two years. The last time it lead to dealing with a lot of typical "musicians", before hooking up with a band that lead to this band. This was the first band I have played with in probably 5 years where I actually enjoyed going to practices (although they stopped after a month.. haha) or shooting the breeze with the guys during setup/teardown and the set breaks. Oh well... maybe if I catch on with another band I'll be more enthused to check out the duo.

[rodclement]

I do acoustic duo work excluselly for gigs, pays better, easier to book, less involved when it comes to gear/set-up, and a hell of a lot easier to work with others schedules.

 

My previous gig went the opposite way, we build a whole market for the acoustic duo and then started to get some guys to sit in (payed) when a gig asked for a full band, then the guitar player started booking a full band gig every week, on top of the acoustic duo, that meant, one night for practice, acoustic gig on wednesdays, and full band some other day. Too much for my work schedule, I quit and the band ended a couple of months later...we both lost a good thing.

 

Rod

[Lee Flier]

 

Sounds like they are booking the duo first and the band second, and are only concerned with their paycheck. Damned if I'd sit in for free.

 

 

Yeah, this.

 

I have no issue with playing for free per se - I'm happy to sit in with other people I like, ordinarily. But under these circumstances, no way. You said it here yourself:

 

 

Now, I sort of feel slighted when one of the reasons the band is not playing more is because they will not take less pay, but they expect me to come out and play for free?

 

 

Yep - they're essentially stealing gigs from your band, so they can get paid more, and they expect you to help them out without getting paid at all. That's ridiculous.

[goosefartfan]

yes, and the writing says:

 

you are being taken advantage of.

 

You can respectfully inform them of your willingness to play for them as a professional. and pros get paid.

 

No drama, just, if you want my services, just like a plumber, nurse, tutor, etc., you have to pay for my time and skills.......

[BlueStrat]

 

Sounds like they are booking the duo first and the band second, and are only concerned with their paycheck. Damned if I'd sit in for free.

 

 

I agree.

 

However, I'm on the other side of that fence. I play with two bands, as well as a duo and a solo. I can't get anyone else to book in either band. Venues want 5 people to play for 300 dollars. A 4 hour gig is a 7 hour day for a one nighter. So my band mates get pissy because I book solo and duo gigs, and they aren't playing. Solo, I can earn 20-60 dollars an hour, and be set up in 10 minutes. Is it any wonder I'd rather do it?

 

I love my band mates, but I'll tell you this- if I were a bass player or drummer not getting many gigs, I'd be taking a highly active role in booking the band. for them to sit and cry about not having a gig because someone else isn't booking it for them is crap. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own success and happiness.

[Invader.CC]

I play in a working band were every members income is dependent on the band..We all have our side projects for extra income..I do studio work.. Like your band mates the other guitar player and bass player have a duo.The drummer does some mercenary work with other bands.With all that said our main focus must be our band ..Without that focus the band will never go anywhere or achieve anything..

If i was in your situation i would confront the other band members about what your thoughts are as always honesty is the best policy even if others aren't honest with you..

I would explain to them if they are not willing to re commit to your band that you will continue to play gigs with them but that you are also going to explore other options..

I would try to do this as amicably as possible because you never want to destroy any connections in the music business..

[Lee Flier]

I agree. However, I'm on the other side of that fence. I play with two bands, as well as a duo and a solo. I can't get anyone else to book in either band. Venues want 5 people to play for 300 dollars. A 4 hour gig is a 7 hour day for a one nighter. So my band mates get pissy because I book solo and duo gigs, and they aren't playing. Solo, I can earn 20-60 dollars an hour, and be set up in 10 minutes. Is it any wonder I'd rather do it? I love my band mates, but I'll tell you this- if I were a bass player or drummer not getting many gigs, I'd be taking a highly active role in booking the band. for them to sit and cry about not having a gig because someone else isn't booking it for them is crap. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own success and happiness.

 

Well as I already said in your thread, it sounds like your bandmates are taking advantage of you. I don't blame you for booking stuff without them. But I also don't think you'd then ask any of them to sit in with you for free.

[Yer Blues]

I don't really think they are taking advantage of me. I don't think they even see that the duo gigs mean less gigs for the band... it is probably just easier to get their price with the duo gigs because it's a smaller amount vs. a larger amount.

 

I actually like bluestrat's idea of everyone being involved in booking. But it's nearly impossible because the band does not have a rep and there are no promo materials to distribute. When you combine this with the fact some band members want a set rate it is basically set up to fail... thus the duo gigs are easier to book.

[trevcda]

Book something as as single and and invite those two out "to come sit in for a night." Every time... I'll bet that goes over big!

[Lee Flier]

 

I don't really think they are taking advantage of me. I don't think they even see that the duo gigs mean less gigs for the band... it is probably just easier to get their price with the duo gigs because it's a smaller amount vs. a larger amount.

 

 

Of course. But asking you to sit in for free on those gigs is definitely taking advantage of you.

[Lee Flier]

Book something as as single and and invite those two out "to come sit in for a night." Every time... I'll bet that goes over big!

 

[Yer Blues]

 

Of course. But asking you to sit in for free on those gigs is definitely taking advantage of you.

 

 

Well, if I don't go how can I be taken advantage of? I really think the one guy just figures I like to play and he knows I'm currently not playing with anyone else.

 

I mean, I could make an issue of it by saying something like "how about you guys lower your min fee and we start booking more full band things". But, it's really not going to help the end result.

[Yer Blues]

 

Book something as as single and and invite those two out "to come sit in for a night." Every time... I'll bet that goes over big!

 

 

I think it would be funnier if I gave them a call and said something like "guys, I tried to get the band a gig, but instead I was able to book a duo. Which one of you wants to play with me?"

[Tele-vania65000]

They are taking advantage of you because they know you are willing to play for free.

 

Most guys would never play for free when the other guys are getting money.

 

So yes, they are working you over and your noobishness is showing.

 

I hope you don't give off that "Aw shucks, I'm just happy to be here" attitude I see in musicians from time to time.

 

One of my bandmates does that and it immediately signals to all and sundry that pay doesn't matter as much as it actually does.

[Lee Flier]

Well, if I don't go how can I be taken advantage of?

 

Well, the intent is to take advantage of you. They're being inconsiderate of you, and the fact that you don't go is a reflection of your action, not theirs. Theirs still suck.

 

I really think the one guy just figures I like to play and he knows I'm currently not playing with anyone else.

 

You're not playing with anyone else because of their refusal to take less pay! But they think you want to play with them for free.

 

I mean, I could make an issue of it by saying something like "how about you guys lower your min fee and we start booking more full band things". But, it's really not going to help the end result.

 

You don't really know that it isn't - if, as you say, these guys are simply not thinking through what they're actually doing and how it affects you, then they need to know that and it may in fact change what happens.

 

But even if it doesn't, I think you should spell out to them what's going on, in black and white, and let them know where you stand on it.

[Yer Blues]

 

They are taking advantage of you because they know you are willing to play for free. Most guys would never play for free when the other guys are getting money. So yes, they are working you over and your noobishness is showing. I hope you don't give off that "Aw shucks, I'm just happy to be here" attitude I see in musicians from time to time. One of my bandmates does that and it immediately signals to all and sundry that pay doesn't matter as much as it actually does.

 

 

I'm not following how are they taking advantage of me if I'm not doing it? I sat in one time for two sets during one of their first gigs, but it was only one time. I could follow the line of thought they might be trying to.... but again I'm not going.

[Yer Blues]

Well, the intent is to take advantage of you. You're not playing with anyone else because of their refusal to take less pay! But they think you want to play with them for free. You don't really know that it isn't - if, as you say, these guys are simply not thinking through what they're actually doing and how it affects you, then they need to know that and it may in fact change what happens. But even if it doesn't, I think you should spell out to them what's going on, in black and white, and let them know where you stand on it.

 

Yes... this is how I feel.

 

The part about them refusing to take less than xxx amount and then asking me to come play for free is really what started to get to me. I like the guys and don't want to make an issue out of it. We're not really playing anyways, it's proabably just time to move forward with something else.

 

EDIT: Also, my not playing with anyone else has more to do with my laziness than their actions. This all started happening in the last couple of months, which is more than enough time to find another/additional band to play with. It's not like I am passing up another opportunity because I'm keeping my schedule open for this band... I just don't want to start from square one.

[Tele-vania65000]

 

I'm not following how are they taking advantage of me if I'm not doing it? I sat in one time for two sets during one of their first gigs, but it was only one time. I could follow the line of thought they might be trying to.... but again I'm not going.

 

 

I can't imagine sitting in one time for no dollars when the other dudes were making some.

 

Maybe 2-3 songs, max. After that, it's work and I'm getting paid.

 

Good to hear you won't do it again.

[Yer Blues]

 

I can't imagine sitting in one time for no dollars when the other dudes were making some. Maybe 2-3 songs, max. After that, it's work and I'm getting paid. Good to hear you won't do it again.

 

 

Yeah.. I hear you. At the time I kind of figured it was a one off thing for them and could have lead to more gigs for the full. Whether by choice or necessity, it seems to have become the priority.

[Yer Blues]

I could see it turning out badly though if I said something like "I'm not going to come during my free time when one of the main reasons these gigs are being played in the first place is because it's the only way Raymond can get his minimun fee. If they band has to turn down gigs because he won't take $25 less, I'm certainly not going to come out for free."

 

I don't see anything good coming from that.

[sventvkg]

 

I agree. However, I'm on the other side of that fence. I play with two bands, as well as a duo and a solo. I can't get anyone else to book in either band. Venues want 5 people to play for 300 dollars. A 4 hour gig is a 7 hour day for a one nighter. So my band mates get pissy because I book solo and duo gigs, and they aren't playing. Solo, I can earn 20-60 dollars an hour, and be set up in 10 minutes. Is it any wonder I'd rather do it? I love my band mates, but I'll tell you this- if I were a bass player or drummer not getting many gigs, I'd be taking a highly active role in booking the band. for them to sit and cry about not having a gig because someone else isn't booking it for them is crap. Ultimately, we're all responsible for our own success and happiness.

 

 

So you're telling me the venues are dictating to you how many band members you can have to be able to play at their club??? In all my years I thought I'd seen it all. I would literally hysterically crack up in someone's face if they told me that!! Then I would say, I'll play for free with my 4 piece and if it's not better then any of your 5 piece bands by consensus of everyone there, I'll pay YOU $500!! I have said many things like that in my day. Confidence is good if you can back it up! Of course, I probably wouldn't deal with a venue trying to tell me how many band members I must have in order to booked in their venue!! That's just Hilarious!!! LOLOL :poke: