Ok so what's new? what have you added?

[Vito Corleone]

You're right in that if you can make a case for melodic minor, the key sig would actually be the relative minor and accidentals would appear to conform the nat minor mode to melodic minor. At least that's the convention established by Jazz musicians: probably to convey better the tonal center of the piece. Those crazy jazz guys, always trying to reinvent stuff.

 

Actually, this is more about the blues. Upon which jazz and rock are based. Nobody writes and sings a song in Em and calls it "D" just because they use a major IV instead of a minor iv. That's just nonsense. Yes, "tonal center" is relevant to the key. Even more so for those of us that don't write stuff out on staffs. Seriously? you're going to play a song like "Brick" and tell anyone in the band it's in "C" just because it never goes to the Bb chord?

 

No, you wouldn't. Because the song is in D minor.

 

I have a hard time believing a site as well known and endorsed by major pubs as MusicNotes would hire hacks to do their transcriptions.

 

I challenge you to find any full score for either SA or "Brick" published since those songs were written that show either of those songs to be in MAJOR keys. You aren't. That's just nonsense. Geez, dude. Please tell me you aren't this anal about stuff that means nothing when you're at rehearsal with your band....

[wades_keys]

 

Please tell me you aren't this anal about stuff that means nothing when you're at rehearsal with your band....

 

Why would I be? I'm not there to talk, I'm there to play.

 

Too much talking and I go out for a smoke.

 

The way I see it is everyone listens, learns their {censored}, and then we show up and play it.

 

If cats can't do that they ain't doin' somethin' right. Pretty much that simple really.

 

Doesn't matter how ya get there, just get there.....

[wades_keys]

 

Actually, this is more about the blues. Upon which jazz and rock are based. Nobody writes and sings a song in Em and calls it "D" just because they use a major IV instead of a minor iv.

 

Well, the guy who transcribed that musicnotes sheet sure did it that way.

 

But I guess you want me to believe that your credentials exceed his? Sorry, but,,,,no.

[wades_keys]

Actually, this is more about the blues. Upon which jazz and rock are based. Nobody writes and sings a song in Em and calls it "D" just because they use a major IV instead of a minor iv.

UH, yes, they do.

 

This is the essence of a ii, V, I progression, which by your logic, should not exist.

 

You're kinda wrong here bud. But that's okay.

 

Just because the song starts and resolves on a minor chord does not mean that the song is in a minor key!!!!!! Yes, progressions based off of the minor 2nd do exist and are very common. So you're kinda out on the branch a little bit here David.

 

Again, I think the differences in the sheets don't reflect any particular incompetence, just two different (yet valid) ways to interpret the key sig of the piece. Again, I favor the fewest accidentals. Classical music tended to do that too until a certain period where the V chord was really formalized, leading to all of the variations on the minor scale.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Well, the guy who transcribed that musicnotes sheet sure did it that way. But I guess you want me to believe that your credentials exceed his? Sorry, but,,,,no.

 

 

Uhh...he and I both called the songs the same. I posted the actual sheet music. Sorry, but the full score supercedes the "bass part only" or "flute plays the melody line" transcription.

[Vito Corleone]

 

UH, yes, they do.

 

 

WHO does? Again---show me the scores that show these songs in major keys and we'll have something to talk about. And no, writing out single lines for single parts don't count.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Why would I be? I'm not there to talk, I'm there to play.

 

 

I would hope so. You're insistance that "this song is REALLY in C" when every actual player in the world would call it Dm indicates otherwise...

[stratotastic]

Sorry to break up the geek fight. To answer the OP, our latest adds are:

 

Life Is A Highway

Twist & Shout

I Want You Back (Jax 5)

Superstition

Sex on Fire (keeps getting requested, so...)

My Girl

Shout

My Sharona (to mash with Benatar's Heartbreaker)

I Love RnR

Black Horse/Cherry Tree (going b/t Walk This Way and Ride a Cowboy in one of our medley-o-ramas)

 

Lots of old stuff as of late...

[wades_keys]

Consider this perspective. I play strings. It's a pattern-based instrument really. Take a scale and slide it up and down the neck. Diff approach to keys. For me, thinking in C major gives me the correct position, correct scale and the correct notes without the static of having to apply the accidental "B" note every damn time it comes around. That's no way to think on bass or guitar.

 

So in the spirit of understanding, try and see where other cats are coming from on this. On keys the mentality is totally diff: you tend to have to know the notes to play and aren't dealing with "moveable shapes" like you do on strings.

[wades_keys]

 

I would hope so. You're insistance that "this song is REALLY in C" when every actual player in the world would call it Dm indicates otherwise...

 

Fact is I don't see any body that really knows his {censored} saying this.

 

WE have two pro-level transcriptions that disagree.

 

IF a bar band player disagrees wtf do I care? I probably know more theory than he ever will anyway. Not braggin. Just sayin. I've put in my time on this {censored}. I ain't no hack. I might be wrong but you better cite authority or I ain't havin' it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Consider this perspective. I play strings. It's a pattern-based instrument really. Take a scale and slide it up and down the neck. Diff approach to keys. For me, thinking in C major gives me the correct position, correct scale and the correct notes without the static of having to apply the accidental "B" note every damn time it comes around. That's no way to think on bass or guitar. So in the spirit of understanding, try and see where other cats are coming from on this. On keys the mentality is totally diff: you tend to have to know the notes to play and aren't dealing with "moveable shapes" like you do on strings.

 

 

I dunno. I play both keys and guitar. I don't really see that much of a difference in this instance. I think pretty much every player in any working band is going to hear these as MINOR key songs. I know bass players see things differently sometimes because "major" and "minor" doesn't mean a lot to them.

[Vito Corleone]

WE have two pro-level transcriptions that disagree.

 

The YouTube thing you posted aside, they are both from the same source/authority: Musicnotes.com. Only difference is one is the "full" score, and the other is for a "single" part. I'll go with the "full" score to be more authoratative. YMMV.

[wades_keys]

 

I dunno. I play both keys and guitar. I don't really see that much of a difference in this instance. I think pretty much every player in any working band is going to hear these as MINOR key songs. I know bass players see things differently sometimes because "major" and "minor" doesn't mean a lot to them.

 

90% of people in bands are going to hear ANY song that starts on a minor and resolves back to a minor as being in a minor key.

 

They're still wrong. Most of em would never, ever, ever see a ii, V, I or similar, because like you, they are thinking of the tone center, which can be an incorrect way to think.

[Vito Corleone]

 

90% of people in bands are going to hear ANY song that starts on a minor and resolves back to a minor as being in a minor key.

 

 

Because it is. Do you not think minor keys exist? or that there aren't melodic and harmonic minors in addition to natural minors?

 

 

They're still wrong. Most of em would never, ever, ever see a ii, V, I or similar, because like you, they are thinking of the tone center, which can be an incorrect way to think.

 

 

what's "incorrect" about it? Where are these rules? And if they DO exist, WHO cares about them? Again, you're are not going to find ANY full score for a song like "Stayin' Alive" or "Brick In The Wall" that puts those songs in a MAJOR key.

 

A) If you're putting some textbook idea of "theory" above your ear? = Fail.

B) If you think true adherance to "theory" sees these songs as major rather than minor? = Fail again.

[wades_keys]

Because it is. Do you not think minor keys exist? or that there aren't melodic and harmonic minors in addition to natural minors?

Of course they exist. But they are defined by certain characteristics, ALL revolving around the FUNCTION OF THE DOMINANT.

 

Which is why my position on this is valid. If you want to call it a minor key and force accidentals in there just to meet your notion of "resolution" then you will never, ever, ever hear a minor 2nd, which is so blatantly incorrect as to be amateurish.

 

So each song has to be evaluated as to the presence of the notes that indicate which, if ANY, minor key is called for.

 

Again, you're are not going to find ANY full score for a song like "Stayin' Alive" or "Brick In The Wall" that puts those songs in a MAJOR key.

I haven't taken the time to analyze these songs, so I can't really say if the minor is function as ii or as a i in a minor key.

 

A) If you're putting some textbook idea of "theory" above your ear? = Fail.

No, but we were talking key signatures and by definition, choosing the correct key signature requires music theory knowledge.

 

B) If you think true adherance to "theory" sees these songs as major rather than minor? = Fail again.

Many, many pieces are in major keys that have a minor tone center, as I've explained countless times already. Again, does the ii, V, I mean anything to you? The key sig on a ii, V, I is always major. By definition.

 

See, what I've learned and am still learning is that resolution the dominant SUPERSEDES resolution to what you might THINK is the one. This is how you can call out and play minor 2nd progressions.....It's all about the dominant, NOT the resolution back to the tone center or the first chord!

[bigboy78]

 

A) If you're putting some textbook idea of "theory" above your ear? = Fail.

 

 

Theoretically I'd have to say the Dm is a ii chord based on everything else.

 

In a practical sense eg "Hey man, what key you the Brick in the Wall?" = Dm.

 

On other news.

 

Currently working up accoustic versions of

 

Never going to give you up - Rick Astley

Do you really want to hurt me - Culture Club

 

The eighties pop has been getting smiles (that's the best we can hope for) at the local open mic.

[wades_keys]

 

Theoretically I'd have to say the Dm is a ii chord based on everything else.

 

Of course it is.

 

Those of us that use number system should see this pretty immediately; it's ingrained really. Man, I've only been working it hard for a year now and it's already made a huge impact on my playing and ability to keep things memorized without repetition.

 

Agree with your "practical sense" too. That's what music geeks call "tone center". Yeah, the TONE CENTER is in Dm. But key sig is not Dm anymore than you would say that a song is "in (the key of)" D dorian. Shades of the Lee Knight discussion here: perhaps its just terminology confusion?

 

Again I think putting it in Dm might have been a cute jazz-inspired way to get closer to the tone center. But I'm gonna kill that auther about 10 bars in because every goddamned b note has an accidental on it, and there's lot's of em! I recognize that for compositions, a key sig choice with accidentals gets the "intent" across. But for a PLAYER? C'mon. Put it in C freaking major so I don't have to deal with accidentals.

 

Besides that, I was always taught that it is basically invalid to have a key sig where you NEGATE the effect of one of the sharps/flats every single time you play it! That means you ain't in the right key, bro! So yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and call bulls**t on the cute jazzy "Dm" interpretation of that piece. I think most readers would agree with that too.

 

I mean, what next? A piece with an F# on the staff but F naturals every time the F note is called for? HELLO??????

[jeff42]

 

Currently working up accoustic versions of Never going to give you up - Rick Astley .

 

 

the singer in my trio has been itching to play part of this in one of our medleys. I think we'll give it a shot for the novelty of it.

[Potts]

Takes two to tango. I'll keep talking until I'm bored.

 

LOL.. alright

[bigboy78]

 

the singer in my trio has been itching to play part of this in one of our medleys. I think we'll give it a shot for the novelty of it.

 

 

You'd only want to use part of it. We discovered it kind of goes nowhere. Verse Chorus is enough for the "remember that song" moment, and then into something else.

[Vito Corleone]

Of course they exist. But they are defined by certain characteristics, ALL revolving around the FUNCTION OF THE DOMINANT. Which is why my position on this is valid. If you want to call it a minor key and force accidentals in there just to meet your notion of "resolution" then you will never, ever, ever hear a minor 2nd, which is so blatantly incorrect as to be amateurish.

 

It's not that you won't ever hear a minor 2nd. There are all sorts of songs with minor 2nds. But when a song starts on the minor 2nd, and ends on atheminor 2nd, and the melody is based on a scale of the minor 2nd, and all the rest of the chords of the song are the "4th" and the "5th" relative to that minor 2nd, and when you've got accidentals in the piece regardless of how you key it, you MIGHT want to consider that the minor 2nd is no longer the minor 2nd but is, in fact, the ROOT. There's no "function of the dominant" at issue here.

 

See, what I've learned and am still learning is that resolution the dominant SUPERSEDES resolution to what you might THINK is the one. This is how you can call out and play minor 2nd progressions.....It's all about the dominant, NOT the resolution back to the tone center or the first chord!

 

I don't know WHAT you've learned and are still learning. But whatever it is, it sounds pretty wrong. You might want to find a new instructor. Just kick back, relax, and listen to the song. For chrissakes, no WONDER you're having trouble find a solid band if you spend your time worrying about nonsense like "function of the dominant". If the root sounds minor? and if the 4 and 5 chords are relative to that minor? Guess what....THAT's the key you're in. Stop giving a {censored} about how many sharps or flats or accidentals might or might not appear on a staff you aren't even ever going to look at. What? You find out later there are really 3 accidentals the chord changes instead of 2 so you're going to say it's now in a different key than you thought it was yesterday???

[Vito Corleone]

it's ingrained really. Man, I've only been working it hard for a year now and it's already made a huge impact

 

Hookay.

[Vito Corleone]

Those of us that use number system should see this pretty immediately; it's ingrained really.

 

OK. You go with that, Wade. When you get a call back from that country band that wanted you to play by the numbers? And the next time they have a i-IV-V song that they call out to you? But you tell them you got tripped but because it is really a ii-V-VI so you got tripped up, and they don't know what the {censored} they are talking about, because any song in a minor key with a major IV is REALLY a minor ii in a dominant I key that sounds like the I to them but is really the VII? Let's see how that works out for you....

[Vito Corleone]

 

Evil Ways? Don't know. But I suspect it's a bit ambiguous. That song is more like a modal jazz vamp than a typical song with a cadence.

 

 

???? It's {censored}ing EVIL WAYS!!! It one of the first songs every rock band ever learns because it's one of the most SIMPLE songs ever written. It's not some complicated "modal jazz vamp"....it's {censored}ing EVIL WAYS!!! i--IV--V for 4 minutes and go home!

 

Do you get off on making things MORE complicated than they really are or something? ii--V--VI based off a I chord that never appears in the song? Are you insane? Nobody writes songs like that. If you told Santana that Evil Ways was really in the key of F major rather than G minor he'd laugh you out of the room.

[bigboy78]

OK. You go with that, Wade. When you get a call back from that country band that wanted you to play by the numbers? And the next time they have a i-IV-V song that they call out to you? But you tell them you got tripped but because it is really a ii-V-VI so you got tripped up, and they don't know what the {censored} they are talking about, because any song in a minor key with a major IV is REALLY a minor ii in a dominant I key that sounds like the I to them but is really the VII? Let's see how that works out for you....

 

Chords to the wall Dm - G - F -C - Dm, if I remember right.

 

ii V IV I in C.

 

If it was Dm G A it wouldn't be ambigous. That's Dm for sure.

 

.....but there is a whole 'nuther board where can argue this. Girls don't dance to Floyd.