Ok so what's new? what have you added?

[wardjames]

We've recently added:

1. Getting You Home- Chris Young
2. You- Chris Young
3. When the Sun Goes Down- Kenny Chesney
4. Just to See You Smile- Tim McGraw
5. Take a Backroad- Rodney Atkins
6. Love's Gonna Make It Alright- George Strait
7. What Was I Thinking- Dierks Bentley
8. Barefoot Bluejean Night- Jake Owen
9. Drink on It- Blake Shelton
10. I Don't Want This Night to End- Luke Bryan

[JoeDirt]

We've recently added: 1. Getting You Home- Chris Young 2. You- Chris Young 3. When the Sun Goes Down- Kenny Chesney 4. Just to See You Smile- Tim McGraw 5. Take a Backroad- Rodney Atkins 6. Love's Gonna Make It Alright- George Strait 7. What Was I Thinking- Dierks Bentley 8. Barefoot Bluejean Night- Jake Owen 9. Drink on It- Blake Shelton 10. I Don't Want This Night to End- Luke Bryan

 

How's the mid tempo stuff working for you guys? Oh noes, a tempo question, but I am really curious since I play in a country band as well.

[wardjames]

How's the mid tempo stuff working for you guys? Oh noes, a tempo question, but I am really curious since I play in a country band as well.

A lot of it works really well in the 120 range. The Cowboy Cha Cha is a really popular dance down here that works for songs in the 120-130 range. Usually it's a song that has an actual cha cha feel like Neon Moon, but even songs like "Roll With It" work. I think "You" will work great there. I'm finding that as long as we pick really popular songs there's usually some dancing that can be done, whether two-step, some line dance, etc.

[Vito Corleone]

I honestly can't see how someone would think this seriously. Obviously there are dance styles that are more suited to lower tempos, but regardless, tempo has EVERYTHING to do with what makes for an enjoyable song (note I'm not saying it's the only thing). Waltzes, by and large, don't happen at 180 BPMs for a reason, for example: that's not a good tempo for waltzing, no matter WHAT the music is. When talking about generic contemporary 'dance' in the vast/broad pop & rock idiom most of us are dealing with (and certainly, the realm specifically being talked about in this thread)...something more 'up-tempo' is more likely to entice people to dance and to go over better in general, no question. OTHERWISE...the people who ARE playing PSSOM would be playing it at pretty much the same tempo as the original recording (instead of, as they've indicated, bumping the tempo by ~20 bpms or so), wouldn't they? Tempo doesn't have anything to do with a song being enjoyable to dance to ? Hogwash

You're right that there are lower tempo dance styles and PSSOM is one of those. Girls don't do a standard dance to this one. They do what I call the "Stripper Strut". One hand straight up in the air (usually with a drink glass attached), the other hand behind their hand, and then jutting and gyrating their hips while leaning back against an imaginary stripper pole (or whatever person happens to be behind them.)

Is it a standard contemporary dance or necessary tempo? No. But it's as valid a dance as anything else, I suppose.

As far as playing it faster goes---I can't speak for other bands, but we play a LOT of songs faster. And not all for good reasons.

[Vito Corleone]

 

No dude, that's dead wrong. Key sigs are all about reducing the number of accidentals

 

 

Assuming that's true, then either way you've got an accidental in this song. If you call it in Em, you've got an accidental on the A major chord. If you call in D major, you've got an accidental on the B7 chord. So why would you choose to call the song in the key that bears no harmonic or melodic relation to the song? It's clearly a MINOR key song just from listening to it. So what minor key are you going to call it in? Certainly not Bm. It's a standard blues melodic-minor pattern song. There's no reason so get all fancy and start saying it's in weird keys and written in some Dorian version of the scale. It's just a rock song.

 

And also, from that wiki link of yours:

 

A key signature is not the same as a key; key signatures are merely notational devices. They are convenient principally for diatonic or tonal music. Some pieces that change key (modulate) insert a new key signature on the staff partway, while others use accidentals: natural signs to neutralize the key signature and other sharps or flats for the new key.

 

For a given musical mode the key signature defines the diatonic scale that a piece of music uses. Most scales require that some notes be consistently sharped or flatted. For example, the only sharp in the G major scale is F sharp, so the key signature associated with the G major key is the one-sharp key signature. However, the connection is not absolute; a piece with a one-sharp key signature is not necessarily in the key of G major, and likewise, a piece in G major may not always be written with a one-sharp key signature. This is particularly true of minor keys. Keys which are associated with the same key signature are called relative keys.

 

 

[Vito Corleone]

Gee dude, I just found some sheet music that shows it in the key of C major. That could be because the original starts on the D minor chord, the ii. Care to concede this argument now? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfwC7JHTHCM And here's another, ALSO in c major. See, it really IS all about reducing the number of accidentals. That's the established convention. http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0073286&ref=google

Some one note flute melody or bass line (of a different song...)? I hardly think that defines the key of the song. seems they were just simply writing out the notes and since there were no sharps or flats in the one note lines, then they didn't both the put any on the staff.

Here's something that looks a bit more "official", wouldn't you say?

[wades_keys]

 

Assuming that's true, then either way you've got an accidental in this song. If you call it in Em, you've got an accidental on the A major chord. If you call in D major, you've got an accidental on the B7 chord. So why would you choose to call the song in the key that bears no harmonic or melodic relation to the song? It's clearly a MINOR key song just from listening to it. So what minor key are you going to call it in? Certainly not Bm. It's a standard blues melodic-minor pattern song. There's no reason so get all fancy and start saying it's in weird keys and written in some Dorian version of the scale. It's just a rock song. And also, from that wiki link of yours: A key signature is not the same as a key; key signatures are merely notational devices. They are convenient principally for diatonic or tonal music. Some pieces that change key (modulate) insert a new key signature on the staff partway, while others use accidentals: natural signs to neutralize the key signature and other sharps or flats for the new key. For a given musical mode the key signature defines the diatonic scale that a piece of music uses. Most scales require that some notes be consistently sharped or flatted. For example, the only sharp in the G major scale is F sharp, so the key signature associated with the G major key is the one-sharp key signature. However, the connection is not absolute; a piece with a one-sharp key signature is not necessarily in the key of G major, and likewise, a piece in G major may not always be written with a one-sharp key signature. This is particularly true of minor keys. Keys which are associated with the same key signature are called relative keys.

 

Nothing fancy at all. I took one look at the chords and that was that. I think that wiki cite is talking about some pretty non-western, outside type of {censored} that is way beyond the scope of what we're talking about here.

 

In my universe, one sharp will ALWAYS be F# and always be in the key of G. Pretty sure that will be true for you as well. Those minor keys almost HAVE to be harmonic minor, and at that point it STILL comes down to reducing the accidentals in the piece: so you put that major 7 alteration on the staff and be done with it. There may be other examples but I can't really think of any. Otherwise, the relative minor key as noted will always be the same as the major.

[wades_keys]

Some one note flute melody or bass line (of a different song...)? I hardly think that defines the key of the song. seems they were just simply writing out the notes and since there were no sharps or flats in the one note lines, then they didn't both the put any on the staff. Here's something that looks a bit more "official", wouldn't you say?

Not the song I was talking about! Yeah, that one MAY be in either Em or Gmajor. Probably E minor.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Nothing fancy at all. I took one look at the chords and that was that. I think that wiki cite is talking about some pretty non-western, outside type of {censored} that is way beyond the scope of what we're talking about here.

 

 

No, it isn't. What it said essentially is A) you can write a song in whatever-key-you-want-to-write it in. There are no 'rules'. B) keeping the key in whatever-gives you the fewest accidentals is common practice. Those are both true. But the second applies MOSTLY for classical pieces and scores that have no real 'core'. You don't write a blues song in Em with a Em-Am-B7 chord pattern and then pretend the song is in D major just because it's now a Em-A-B7 chord pattern. I-IV-V rules still apply whether you're in major or minor keys or whether you're in melodic, natural or harmonic minor.

 

There's a gazillion songs written with this same i-IV-V pattern. "Evil Ways" by Santana is in Gm. It's not in F major simply because it uses a major IV instead of a minor iv. Or "Venus" by Shocking Blue. I could name 100 others if you give me a few minutes.

 

 

In my universe, one sharp will ALWAYS be F# and always be in the key of G. Pretty sure that will be true for you as well. Those minor keys almost HAVE to be harmonic minor, and at that point it STILL comes down to reducing the accidentals in the piece: so you put that major 7 alteration on the staff and be done with it. There may be other examples but I can't really think of any. Otherwise, the relative minor key as noted will always be the same as the major.

 

 

This song has an F# a C# and a D#. It also has a lot of D naturals. You don't just look at all the notes in every chord in the song and pick the key that most fits. This song starts in Em. Goes to A halfway through the verse and then lands on a B7 4 beats before the verse starts up again in Em. In my world, that song is in the key of Em.

[wades_keys]

 

No, it isn't. What it said essentially is A) you can write a song in whatever-key-you-want-to-write it in. There are no 'rules'. B) keeping the key in whatever-gives you the fewest accidentals is common practice. Those are both true. But the second applies MOSTLY for classical pieces and scores that have no real 'core'. You don't write a blues song in Em with a Em-Am-B7 chord pattern and then pretend the song is in D major just because it's now a Em-A-B7 chord pattern.

 

Yeah, actually you do.

 

Sorry Dave, that's gonna be in D major the SAME WAY THAT "Another Brick In the Wall" is in a major key. MusicNotes is pretty authoritative and they agree with me on this.

 

AH, you're moving the goal post a little! Tricky. The original argument I provided did NOT include the V chord, which you have now done. That motion you describe is in fact a minor key. But the Floyd song ain't bro; apparently there is no V chord in there (I didn't think there was: not hearing it myself)

[Vito Corleone]

 

Not the song I was talking about! Yeah, that one MAY be in either Em or Gmajor. Probably E minor.

 

 

It's the one you said you 'fixed'. For the record, we sing and play the guitar solo of "Brick" over the "Stayin' Alive" riff. Well, we do add in the G-D turn around as well for the chorus. But that sounds like a minor key song to me too. And IIRC, was original played in Dm by Pink Floyd.

 

Honestly, I don't put a lot of thought into stuff like "keys". It's in what it sounds like it's in. And like I said at the beginning--and like you and SpaceNorman confirmed--the notation is just about whats-going-to-make-sure-everyone-starts-on-the-same-note. But it's a fun exercise I suppose. But both songs are minor key songs.

 

And as far as Brick goes--look through this stuff on musicnotes.com. The "tab" version is written out like you show--no sharps or flats on the staff, they just say "Dm" over the top of the staff. But the "sheet music" version is written in the key of Dm with one flat.

 

http://search.musicnotes.com/?q=another+brick+in+the+wall&search_id=Top&hl=n

[Vito Corleone]

MusicNotes is pretty authoritative and they agree with me on this.

No, they don't.

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdFPE.asp?ppn=MN0044738&

AH, you're moving the goal post a little! Tricky. The original argument I provided did NOT include the V chord, which you have now done. That motion you describe is in fact a minor key. But the Floyd song ain't bro; apparently there is no V chord in there (I didn't think there was: not hearing it myself)

Stayin' Alive has the V chord. we talked about that early on. And the Floyd song is basically the same damned song without bothering to go the V. Which is why it's so easy for us to overlay one song over the other.

Are you telling me that had Roger Waters written the same song but, for whatever reason, chose to throw in a V chord before going back to the i, it would change the entire KEY the song is in? That's nonsense.

[wades_keys]

Are you telling me that had Roger Waters written the same song but, for whatever reason, chose to throw in a V chord before going back to the i, it would change the entire KEY the song is in? That's nonsense.

No, I'm not telling you.

 

Those are the rules. Dominant chords are called dominant for a reason Dave. Study the history a little more please.

 

And the fact that two sheets from the same provider differ in key sig underscores just how contentious all of this can be. Leeway is given to the publisher and some interpret things differently. I'm more from the "old school" which keeps the accidentals to a minimum as the primary goal of selecting a key: this was done to make it easier to read the music. It's the same reason why you see "odd" key sigs with harmonic minor inventions: reducing accidentals. That's always been the intent, or for more years than not is has been, and you'll find many scholars of music in agreement with this.

 

[wades_keys]

 

It's the one you said you 'fixed'. For the record, we sing and play the guitar solo of "Brick" over the "Stayin' Alive" riff. Well, we do add in the G-D turn around as well for the chorus. But that sounds like a minor key song to me too. And IIRC, was original played in Dm by Pink Floyd.

 

So if I play: Dm, G, A would you say "d minor"? Starts on the Dm and resolves back to the Dm. Should be Dm, right?

[wades_keys]

Looking at the chords for the Floyd tune: it's ambiguous as it does not contain a Bb chord nor any vocals (that I know of) that key off of that note.

 

So it could be seen as key of Dm which never uses the IV, or as key of C major. Again, I choose C major for simplicity and avoiding accidentals: who cares about a Bb that you'll never play? So yeah: for me it's gonna be C major. At least that way I won't try and throw in a Bb on a walkup or something.

[Vito Corleone]

 

No, I'm not telling you. Those are the rules. Dominant chords are called dominant for a reason Dave. Study the history a little more please.

 

 

I know the history. Dominant chords have nothing to do with what we're talking about.

 

 

And the fact that two sheets from the same provider differ in key sig underscores just how contentious all of this can be.

 

 

Perhaps, except that one was an actual score written out with full chords and melody and the other was just a single-note part. If all you're playing is the bass line or melody line in Dm and never come across that Bb note, what's the point of putting it in the staff? That's all that was going on there: just simplifying the notation which, as you correctly noted, is the purpose of having a key signature in the first place. Problem is, you're making it all more DIFFICULT rather than simple just for some concept of "theoritcal rules" which don't really exist in this case.

 

 

 

 

I'm more from the "old school" which keeps the accidentals to a minimum as the primary goal of selecting a key: this was done to make it easier to read the music. It's the same reason why you see "odd" key sigs with harmonic minor inventions: reducing accidentals. That's always been the intent, or for more years than not is has been, and you'll find many scholars of music in agreement with this.

 

 

Again, I need to see it. Show me some actual score (not some one-note melody line, bass part or "tab") where a clearly i-IV-V minor piece like Brick in the Wall or Stayin Alive or Evil Ways or Venus---all structurally, melodically and harmonically VERY SIMILAR songs--is written showing the VII as the "key signature". You aren't going to find it, I'll pretty much guarantee you.

[wades_keys]

 

Again, I need to see it. Show me some actual score (not some one-note melody line, bass part or "tab") where a clearly i-IV-V minor piece like Brick in the Wall or Stayin Alive or Evil Ways or Venus---all structurally, melodically and harmonically VERY SIMILAR songs--is written showing the VII as the "key signature". You aren't going to find it, I'll pretty much guarantee you.

 

Each song has to be evaluated on its own; similar is not equal. Stayin Alive is almost certainly a minor key. The Floyd Song? Not so much.

 

Evil Ways? Don't know. But I suspect it's a bit ambiguous. That song is more like a modal jazz vamp than a typical song with a cadence.

[wades_keys]

I know the history. Dominant chords have nothing to do with what we're talking about. Perhaps, except that one was an actual score written out with full chords and melody and the other was just a single-note part. If all you're playing is the bass line or melody line in Dm and never come across that Bb note, what's the point of putting it in the staff? That's all that was going on there: just simplifying the notation which, as you correctly noted, is the purpose of having a key signature in the first place. Problem is, you're making it all more DIFFICULT rather than simple just for some concept of "theoritcal rules" which don't really exist in this case. Again, I need to see it. Show me some actual score (not some one-note melody line, bass part or "tab") where a clearly i-IV-V minor piece like Brick in the Wall or Stayin Alive or Evil Ways or Venus---all structurally, melodically and harmonically VERY SIMILAR songs--is written showing the VII as the "key signature". You aren't going to find it, I'll pretty much guarantee you.

Is there ANY usage of the Bb note in any way shape or form in the tune? I suspect not: it would clash with the underlying chords. So your point is kinda moot there. They shoulda put it in C major.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Looking at the chords for the Floyd tune: it's ambiguous as it does not contain a Bb chord nor any vocals (that I know of) that key off of that note.

 

 

All the more reason to call it in Dm. The song is virtually the one chord. But you want to say it's in "C"? A chord that really doesn't appear anywhere in the tune? Because some OTHER chord (Bb) doesn't really appear either? That's just absurd. What key is the guitarist soloing in? A Dorian mode of C? And what? This is supposed to make it more SIMPLE? How? No. Just call the song in Dm and leave it at that.

[Vito Corleone]

Is there ANY usage of the Bb note in any way shape or form in the tune? I suspect not: it would clash with the underlying chords.

 

So would B major. More so than Bb. If you wanted to start fudging with the melody and riffing on that Dm chord, you're going to sing Bb, not B major. Because the song is in Dm, not in C major.

[wades_keys]

All the more reason to call it in Dm. The song is virtually the one chord. But you want to say it's in "C"? A chord that really doesn't appear anywhere in the tune? Because some OTHER chord (Bb) doesn't really appear either? That's just absurd. What key is the guitarist soloing in? A Dorian mode of C? And what? This is supposed to make it more SIMPLE? How? No. Just call the song in Dm and leave it at that.

It makes it simple because it gives you the right notes to play! Bb is just plain WRONG in that tune. But it is ambiguous, so an argument can be made either way. Me, I'll stick with C major so I've got the right notes to play.

 

Dave, that sheet in dm is WRONG. Think about it. How are you going to play a G major chord with a Bb? You are going to notate an accidental there each and every time?

 

Nope. Bad sheet. No bueno. Ain't buyin' it.

[wades_keys]

So would B major. More so than Bb. If you wanted to start fudging with the melody and riffing on that Dm chord, you're going to sing Bb, not B major. Because the song is in Dm, not in C major.

Nope, the b note is the major third of gmajor, which by the way occurs frequently in the song.

 

That sheet is wrong and would give the player the wrong notes to play.

 

Or look at it this way: "The key sig has a Bb, but EACH AND EVERY TIME you see a B, play a B natural instead." WTF?

 

At that point, you're in the key of C, really. Dm is jive-ass.

 

To the transcriber's credit, maybe he was going for the "tone center". But I don't think so. I think he made a mistake. At any rate I'd rethink it in C: makes it simpler and gives you all the right notes to play on transitions, walkups and fills.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Each song has to be evaluated on its own; similar is not equal. Stayin Alive is almost certainly a minor key. The Floyd Song? Not so much. Evil Ways? Don't know. But I suspect it's a bit ambiguous. That song is more like a modal jazz vamp than a typical song with a cadence.

 

 

Wrong. All those songs are simple blues-based tunes with melodic minor melodies and riffs. Well, the Floyd tune might be a more natural minor. Like you noted, it doesn't really go to the IV either way. But they are all minor tunes.

[Vito Corleone]

Nope, the b note is the major third of gmajor, which by the way occurs frequently in the song. That sheet is wrong and would give the player the wrong notes to play.

 

And all this is the name of "simplicity"?? The G major occurs as the melodic-minor IV. Same as it does in "Stayin' Alive" and "Evil Ways". I forgot about that chord. Thanks for reminding me that it was there.

[wades_keys]

You're right in that if you can make a case for melodic minor, the key sig would actually be the relative minor and accidentals would appear to conform the nat minor mode to melodic minor.

 

At least that's the convention established by Jazz musicians: probably to convey better the tonal center of the piece. Those crazy jazz guys, always trying to reinvent stuff.

 

You know, I wonder if that's what we're seeing here? A guy with a jazz background is going to notate melodic minor pieces the way you are describing. A more classical rigid theorist is going to go with the fewest accidentals. I bet that's what is happening here.

 

I have a hard time believing a site as well known and endorsed by major pubs as MusicNotes would hire hacks to do their transcriptions.