Played my first gig with IEM's.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

A question for singers using IEMs -- how do you sing comfortably with your ear canals plugged up and sealed off? I've tried a few different phones (albeit none of them custom molded), and I find myself yanking them out and going back to wedges. How does a singer make the transition?

 

This. Plus...I don't think I could use them since I absolutely cannot stand having anything in my ears like those iPod earbud thingys. I prefer padded headphones. Foam ear plugs for protection I can deal with however. I guess it would look kind of dumb wearing those huge headphones onstage while singing/playing...

[sbrett]

This. Plus...I don't think I could use them since I absolutely cannot stand having anything in my ears like those iPod earbud thingys. I prefer padded headphones. Foam ear plugs for protection I can deal with however. I guess it would look kind of dumb wearing those huge headphones onstage while singing/playing...

 

The right earbuds are nothing like iPod earbuds. Actually the kind I use are exactly like the foam ear plugs, except there is a little hole cut in the middle that the 'speaker' fits into. It's just like wearing the foamies...they go IN your ear canal.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

The right earbuds are nothing like iPod earbuds. Actually the kind I use are exactly like the foam ear plugs, except there is a little hole cut in the middle that the 'speaker' fits into. It's just like wearing the foamies...they go IN your ear canal.

 

 

Ahh..ok so they are comfortable to wear. I was under the impression they were like those iPod things....

[jwlussow]

 

I'm actually looking at the 18' "headphone extender" as a cheapo IEM solution for our drummer. However, even for a non-drummer, I wouldn't see it as being any more of an issue than playing with a standard instrument cable, except that instead of plugging into the instrument, the cable would connect to a beltpack.

 

 

The extension cable looked 1/8". I am under the impression that most wired belt packs are 1/4". I don't see an issue with a drummer or keys but I do see issues with a front man, guitar or bass using a wired system. It can work but it will be terribly limiting.

[jwlussow]

 

Have you tried the Galaxy system? I was looking for something low(er)-budget just so I could have something in one ear so I could hear myself better.

 

 

I haven't personally used the Galaxy units but others here I trust have and they claim the sound is comparable to a PSM200 unit. The Galaxy are stereo so one transmitter can do two mixes. That might be an advantage and a costs savings alone. We are very happy with our PSM200s but if we tried the Galaxy units when we were shopping, we might have gone that way just because of the cost. We do not need or use stereo so that isn't a selling point on its own.

[Vito Corleone]

 

A question for singers using IEMs -- how do you sing comfortably with your ear canals plugged up and sealed off? I've tried a few different phones (albeit none of them custom molded), and I find myself yanking them out and going back to wedges. How does a singer make the transition?

 

 

Custom molds are comfortable. At least after a gig or two. They are made to fit YOUR ear. As far as singing comfortably---for me (and I only sing lead on a few songs a night) it was strange at first but now seems completely comfortable. It's really just a matter of getting used to the different aural environment and having the right mix. At first it was very strange hearing myself both in my ears and "in my head". I don't have that problem now. I don't know if it was a matter of finally getting my own level right or just eventually getting used to the sound, but it's not an issue at all anymore for me.

 

And for bands doing a lot of harmonies...I can't really think of any better way to go.

[ChiroVette]

Just some basic questions, since you guys, particularly guido61, seem to really know what you're talking about with this topic.

 

I looked up the Audio Technica M2 system, for instance, and it looks like it comes with a base unit and I think one body pack for around $600.00. I am a little confused, so here are some questions:

 

1. I assume every single ear bud is a separate cost and that you have to buy an IEM for each person in the band plus a pack that I guess clips to the belt or something. Is this true?

2. How does a system like this integrate with a regular mixer that the sound man is using to run the sound?

3. How much does it cost on a per person basis to use a system like this, I assume not counting the initial "kit?"

4. Does the kit come with a set amount of monitors or are they purchased separately?

5. Can you have each IEM for each player/singer given their own separate mix? This seems likely from what I read.

6. Is the system that guido61 recommending an entry level IEM system or a good one?

7. All told, if I have 6 people on stage in my band, what am I looking at in terms of cost?

8. My band uses subs right now on bass and keys, so until we find permanent players, molded buds (custom fitted) wouldn't be an option. Could we just use stock buds for substitute position players?

9. What is the cost, per person, to go from stock buds to custom fitted, molded?

10. I have had MANY problems with the life of ear buds in the past. Sometimes the wire entering into the buds become frayed from lots of use even when treated gently. This causes me to need replacements often. Are there options, such as changeable wires to help with the lifespan of these things? I ask because I believe I saw something like this on one of the sites linked to in this thread.

11. Does anyone else, aside from Wade, recommend the Sensaphonics?

 

Thanks!

[Vito Corleone]

 

1. I assume every single ear bud is a separate cost and that you have to buy an IEM for each person in the band plus a pack that I guess clips to the belt or something. Is this true?

 

 

Yes. Each IEM will come with their own stock buds, which are probably comparable to the ones you got with your iPod. If you buy custom molds or any other buds, that will be an additional cost.

 

Each person will need their own transmitter/body pack. It IS technically possible to run two body packs off on one stereo transmitter. The M2 is stereo. You could send a separate signal left and right and set the body packs to play either signal in mono. This MIGHT work or MIGHT be more trouble than it's worth? Although I suppose it could serve as stop-gap measure to save some money.

 

 

2. How does a system like this integrate with a regular mixer that the sound man is using to run the sound?

 

 

If you have a mixer out front with a sound man, I don't see how you can effectively run IEMs without a separate monitor mixer on stage. This is what we do. We have an A&H WZ3 12M Monitor mixer and run a jumper snake between that mixer and the snake that runs to the FOH. If you mix from stage it would be easier, but you need enough monitor sends so each band member has their own mix. Having a guy out front control your IEM mix? Nothing's impossible, of course, but I certainly can't see how that would work well.

 

 

3. How much does it cost on a per person basis to use a system like this, I assume not counting the initial "kit?"

It ain't cheap. If you're looking something like the M2 and molded buds, you're in for $800-$1000 a piece. A dedicated monitor mixer is going to run at least $2K brand new. And a jumper snake is probably another $100 minimum.

 

4. Does the kit come with a set amount of monitors or are they purchased separately?

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "kit" or "monitors" in this case.

 

5. Can you have each IEM for each player/singer given their own separate mix? This seems likely from what I read.

 

 

Depends on the mixer you use. It's essential, IMO, to have separate mixes but I know some bands who are using a board with only 4 monitor sends might have a couple of people double-up on a mix.

 

6. Is the system that guido61 recommending an entry level IEM system or a good one?

 

 

Are you speaking of the M2? I'd consider that a mid-level system based on performance/price. The Galaxy systems are probably more "entry level". There's some cheap systems out there from Nady that come poorly recommended, so I'd stay away from those. Not sure what more you get from the more expensive systems. Better range maybe? Less chance of drop-outs/interference? I occassionally get a radio-interference crackle in my ears with the M2. Nothing too distracting, however.

 

 

 

7. All told, if I have 6 people on stage in my band, what am I looking at in terms of cost?

 

 

I have a six piece as well. The mixer might end up being your biggest cost. Monitor mixers aren't cheap. The A&H is probably the cheapest one out there. I found a good deal on a used one for about $800 on Ebay. That was a steal, IMO. But its $2K brand new. If you go with the Galaxy systems and molded buds from Alien Ears you're looking at about $650-700 a person. And a jumper snake and other cables.

 

 

8. My band uses subs right now on bass and keys, so until we find permanent players, molded buds (custom fitted) wouldn't be an option. Could we just use stock buds for substitute position players?

 

 

Yes.

 

9. What is the cost, per person, to go from stock buds to custom fitted, molded?

 

 

The molded buds from Alien Ears start at $160 a pair.

 

 

10. I have had MANY problems with the life of ear buds in the past. Sometimes the wire entering into the buds become frayed from lots of use even when treated gently. This causes me to need replacements often. Are there options, such as changeable wires to help with the lifespan of these things? I ask because I believe I saw something like this on one of the sites linked to in this thread.

 

 

The wires on my molded buds from Ultimate Ears are detachable. I would imagine they sell replacement cords.

 

11. Does anyone else, aside from Wade, recommend the Sensaphonics?

 

 

No experience with them.

[ChiroVette]

Thanks for all the info, guido!

 

At about $800.00 per person plus monitor mixer plus jumper snake, I am thinking this is far too pricey for my needs right now. Sounds like I would be looking at around $6K for even an entry level system just to start with. I am certainly not going to try to replace wedges on the cheap with Nady or other brands. Plus, mixing a monitor rig from stage is going to be a nightmare, particularly on those rare nights when I have no sound man and also have to mix the band from stage in the FOH.

 

This is something it sounds like I should be considering if and when my band goes to the next level and if and when we are charging $1,500.00+ per night. But as long as the band is averaging around $500.00+ a night, this just isn't worth trying to scrimp and save for.

[Vito Corleone]

 

8. My band uses subs right now on bass and keys, so until we find permanent players, molded buds (custom fitted) wouldn't be an option. Could we just use stock buds for substitute position players?

 

 

What are you using for monitors now? My guitarist has basically refused to get used to IEMs. He keeps saying he'll "try them again", but never does. So we throw up a powered wedge for him and the mix/signal that would have gone to his transmitter instead goes to his monitor. This might be better if you're using subs that aren't used to IEMs.

[ChiroVette]

 

What are you using for monitors now? My guitarist has basically refused to get used to IEMs. He keeps saying he'll "try them again", but never does. So we throw up a powered wedge for him and the mix/signal that would have gone to his transmitter instead goes to his monitor. This might be better if you're using subs that aren't used to IEMs.

 

 

Right now we are using a bunch of old JBL MR805 wedges, which actually sound pretty nice, but are big and bulky. I have been researching PA speaker upgrade, and am looking at the QSC KW line and the JBL PRX line for both FOH, subs, and monitors. However, since I am not yet ready to upgrade I figured I would do a little research on IEM's while I was at it.

 

Honestly, though, price-wise, there is simply no comparison. I can always keep the MR805's and use them for the drummer, bass, and keys, and all I would then have to purchase would be a pair of, say JBL PRX612's for me and the female vocalist (and maybe a third one for the rhythm guitarist). Obviously this would be a way less expensive option than IEM's from what you described. I am the lead guitarist and while I would not be resistant to using IEM's, I am certainly resistant to laying out the upwards of $8K for that kind of a system when I also have to buy FOH (tops and subs), a new mixer, new snake, and extra Ashly EQ's.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Thanks for all the info, guido!

 

 

NP. Yes, it's a big investment. We wouldn't even have considered it if we weren't moving 'up a level' at the time. But I did a lot of research when we decided to do it last year and got a lot of help from people on this forum so I thought I'd pass it on. Like you, I only want to spend my money one time, so I was careful to not get anything I'd regret and want to replace right away. Yet, of course, I wanted to keep it all as inexpensive as possible.

 

We're all happy with the system we have. Everyone likes their transmitters, their buds and the mixer. (Well, the guitarist doesn't like any of it, but whatever....) Nobody has rushed out to "upgrade" anything. One of the girls was insistant she could use the stock buds and did for a long time but finally broke down and got molded buds. I feel pretty confident we got the cheapest system we could get and still have the quality we want.

 

At least until somebody comes out with a cheaper monitor mixer? With all the bands moving to IEMs these days, I'm surprised no one has yet.

[Leftcoast123]

 

My guitarist has basically refused to get used to IEMs. He keeps saying he'll "try them again", but never does. So we throw up a powered wedge for him and the mix/signal that would have gone to his transmitter instead goes to his monitor.

 

Same here but in his case it's "try them" as he's never used them! Our singer is on UE7's and he had the ambient ports installed when he ordered them and loves them so far. Apparantly a large percentage of those who go this route will seal them up as they get used to IEM's. We'll see.

I was used to a Crest XRM monitor board in the touring world but when it was time to actually put my own dough towards a monitor board for my cover bands my budget was wayyyyyy below that. I searched for a Peavey 16-6 but ended up with a Rane MM12 monitor board from eBay. I recall $400 in 08 with shipping from the US to here in Canada. The greatest advantage of having your own board on stage with it's own XLR split is that we have the same EXACT mix the next show (unless someone opened the road case and messed with the mixes). Before the board we had FOH techs running our mixes from the mix position. Not perfect but functional. In closing...it was a gradual deployment of the system due to the cost but after a few years we have what we need and we have 6 mixes available.

[sbrett]

We prefer that our sound engineer take care of our mix FOH. It works for us because he is always our sound engineer, levels stay pretty consistent from gig to gig, there are only four of us (in this band), and it prevents us (mainly our singer) from tweaking his monitor mix all night, which he would do if the board was right next to him.

 

We are looking into swapping our A&H MixWiz for a Studiolive, then we could all control our own mixes from our phones. You don't HAVE to have a separate board, cables, etc. to get started--that might cut your costs down significantly. I think the most important thing is to make absolutely sure you want to make the switch and would be happy with in-ears because it's definitely an investment no matter how you do it.

[Vito Corleone]

 

We are looking into swapping our A&H MixWiz for a Studiolive, then we could all control our own mixes from our phones. You don't HAVE to have a separate board, cables, etc. to get started--that might cut your costs down significantly. I think the most important thing is to make absolutely sure you want to make the switch and would be happy with in-ears because it's definitely an investment no matter how you do it.

 

 

Yeah, that's probably our next step. Our regular soundman brings his own Studiolive to the gigs he does. Very cool set up. Think about getting our own and going with everyone having their own iPad to mix. Big cost upgrade overall though.

[wades_keys]

Yeah IEM's are definitely the way to hear every part being played with ultimate clarity and most importantly, no delays!

 

But there is also a click track in there and that to me is kind of a mixed bag. Yeah it keeps everyone on the train but my ear hears the "fighting" that happens with that pulse sometimes. It was very apparent this sunday when I tried to play WITHOUT the click. I don't think issues of being "off" or not together were entirely due to that or me hearing reflections.

 

In fact, I know they're not. In my other band I play with a CLOCK (drummer) and the feel is just so much more "together". But I think this is more a reflection on the gig than the equipment being used!

[Vito Corleone]

 

Yeah IEM's are definitely the way to hear every part being played with ultimate clarity and most importantly, no delays! But there is also a click track in there and that to me is kind of a mixed bag. Yeah it keeps everyone on the train but my ear hears the "fighting" that happens with that pulse sometimes. It was very apparent this sunday when I tried to play WITHOUT the click. I don't think issues of being "off" or not together were entirely due to that or me hearing reflections. In fact, I know they're not. In my other band I play with a CLOCK (drummer) and the feel is just so much more "together". But I think this is more a reflection on the gig than the equipment being used!

 

 

If you're playing with a click and some of the band members can't, then that would be VERY distracting. Maybe just have them take the click out of your ears so you can just work on locking in with the drummer. He's the only one who really needs the click anyway, I would imagine?

[bassred]

FOr the question about singing with something in your ear, custom molds are done with the persons jaw held open so that the motion of singing won't cause the seal to break. This makes it very comfortable in all jaw positions. Also, as noted, the custom ears sit IN the ear canal, so it is not like an earbud just resting in the bigger/outer part of the ear...

 

Look around for used units. There are plenty of people who have tried them and chosen not to keep them - I found a used Sennheiser 3056 unit for a really amazing price and used IEM's for every show for about two and a half years. Now, it is sitting in a rack bag and I bring it to shows in the hopes that I can patch it in (but doing originals and 30 minute sets, it's hardly worth the effort to a lot of the sound guys we work with...) I also have a second channel to offer to another bandmate or as a backup!

 

I wouldn't ever do a gig with wedges again if I could help it, and I haven't even taken the dive into custom ears yet! It really makes that much of a difference in everything. I could dial the mix I needed into my head, I could hear the vocals so clear that I could SING instead of screaming to hear myself over the mush of the monitors/stage wash, and I could get to sleep after a long night of playing with no ringing in my ears! (IEM's do not reduce the risk of hearing damage, you have to make sure you keep the volume only as loud as you NEED it to hear everything. The limiters built into most packs are a good start, but you can still crank them 'Too loud'... )

 

Guido - Playing with one ear out and causing damage: I think this probably depends on how big an idiot you are. Apparently the 'danger' here results from people who, after they pull one ear out then go and crank up the remaining in-ear. The obvious solution to this is "don't turn it up after you pull one-ear out." I've never had this temptation---maybe it's more of an issue when playing on really loud stages? But, if anything, needing to 'turn up' would compel me to put both ears back in, not pull one out. But I don't see how there is any inherent potential damage that could occur simply from just having one-ear-out. So set your in-ear volume and leave it before you pull one out and you should be fine.

 

Not really how big an idiot, but simple brain science - after a few minutes, you are going to turn up the bud that is left in your head. No matter how conscious you are of the issue, you most likely won't even realize you are doing it, you just will... The brain will also be working overtime to try to level out the two different volumes and make sense of it all.

 

If you haven't tried adding a mic or two to pick up the crowd, you don't know what you're missing! Just adding one or two mics that are facing the crowd and only mixed into your ears can give back a lot of that 'connected' feeling!!

[wades_keys]

 

If you're playing with a click and some of the band members can't, then that would be VERY distracting. Maybe just have them take the click out of your ears so you can just work on locking in with the drummer. He's the only one who really needs the click anyway, I would imagine?

 

I can setup my own mix and the click has its own track so that's good and that is exactly what I'm going to do a I think. At rehearsal I had it set real low in my buds but I'm going to bring it down even further and then just hopefully be able to talk with and lock in with this drummer as I get more used to her style.

 

I suppose as I play more with this drummer we'll get tighter. It's just been a real bring it and wing it deal and my first gig was this Sunday!

[Vito Corleone]

 

 

 

Not really how big an idiot, but simple brain science - after a few minutes, you are going to turn up the bud that is left in your head. No matter how conscious you are of the issue, you most likely won't even realize you are doing it, you just will... The brain will also be working overtime to try to level out the two different volumes and make sense of it all.

 

I guess that makes some sense. I've never really been tempted to turn up the in-ear when I have one out. But like I said, that might be a function of stage/room volume. Our stage volume is pretty quiet so it's not like I suddenly can't hear the in-ear once I pull the other one out.

 

If you haven't tried adding a mic or two to pick up the crowd, you don't know what you're missing! Just adding one or two mics that are facing the crowd and only mixed into your ears can give back a lot of that 'connected' feeling!!

 

We don't really have the available channels, unfortunately.

[Vito Corleone]

 

I can setup my own mix and the click has its own track so that's good.

 

 

Yeah. I haven't played with a drummer that has used a click for years, but I really don't think I'd want to hear the click TOO. I've always just worked with drummers who were the only ones who listened to the click.

[wades_keys]

The Sensaphonics is a pretty high end system that used 24 bit converters and an ethernet-based digital network to move the sound back and forth with no signal loss whatsoever. It's more appropriate for permanent installs probably due to its price range, and in a typical stage setup signal loss won't be an issue. These are used in churches a lot because you tend to have (or want to have) the actual mixing desk as far back as possible and preferably behind the congregation.

[modulusman]

My band uses IEMs I use the Audio-Technica M3 and the other 3 guys are using the Shure PSM-200. You don't really need a seperate board although it would make more sense if you are dealing with a different soundman/room all the time. Usually after you get them set-up the way you like it therir is very little tweaking going on IME. The stock earbuds that came with my audio technica suck. I'm not using molds but some Shure E3s with the foam tips and they seam to work fairly well.

[Jcor]

My band uses Shure PSM 400's. Six piece band - singers get their own transmitter and all others use one transmitter. We have three transmitters in all feeding off of auxes 1-3 on our A&H GL 2400. the only problem we have had is when the transmitters are overdriven into clipping from the aux sends. We now have a dedicated sound man who does watch the levels - last gig, we had no problems at all. Like Modulusman said, you could have a separate mixer for the system, but it is not necessary, especially if you have enough sends. IEM's are the way to go - take your time and build the system correctly - your hearing will thank you.

[vegasdrummer]

I use one of these and its great to use with vocals and click track together. No mixer needed, just plug in. It works

 

http://www.amazon.com/Rolls-PM50S-Personal-Monitor-Amplifier/dp/B0002BG2SQ