Members dan88z Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 My drummer and I did a "lay of the land" scouting trip to a venue we had been booked into by an agent. The band was 4 piece- drums, guitar, bass, lead vocalist/sax. They had FULL keyboard arrangements, backing vox, and to top it off, guitar and bass tracks going. At one point there was a guitar solo- the guitar player was playing rhythm while the backing track took the lead. It was total schlock. The sad thing is, they are booked regularly at a lot of places, and my band had our subsequent gigs at the venue cancelled after the 2nd time in because "we only have that girl singer". I guess I should have flown in some male vox tracks and lip synced to them, and we could have kept the gig! Oh well, it was a pita gig anyway. Load in at 2pm to be set up by 4 so the dinner people didn't have to see us. Go thru the greasy floor maze of a kitchen from the freight elevator that was right next to the wall of dumpsters instead of up the stairs that were 30' from the venue entrance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Honestly, I have done it dozens of times and no one has ever once mentioned that we played and sang right over the original. Ummmmmm..... why do I feel like this violates some unspoken musicians code? Maybe I'd feel different if I were a better musician, but man... I don't think I could do that. Or are you joking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Or are you joking? I doubt he's joking. But the bottom line here is how well is the audience responding to your product. It's not in the delivery method so much as the result. From the looks of it tshaprio's band is playing pretty much the same sort of gigs my band does for the same type of money. We don't use any tracks; they do. I doubt either of our audiences care either way. They just like the music and the show and have a good time. I can't imagine why anyone would need to track "Sweet Caroline", but I'm not here to judge that. If that works for them, that's great. I've debated using tracks, but the truth is I don't believe we've ever lost a gig or a fan or a single dollar because our version of "Dynamite" doesn't maybe sound quite as 'full' or 'real' as a band playing to tracks might make it sound. Mostly I'm just too lazy to go the trouble and unless/until we reach a point where songs I feel might be essential to our songlist aren't working because there aren't enough keyboard parts or percussion parts, I doubt I'll change the way we do things. But I'm not inherently opposed to them. You just have to, like you would any live instrument, use them well. Frankly, I'm not sure what the 'artistic' value would be for a cover band to use tracks. I can only see them being used as a money-making enhancement. If you feel that your sound with tracks will get you more gigs and more money--then I say go for it if that's your goal. But if not...then why bother? Just work up your own arrangements of songs within the instrumentation you have. That's my take on it, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Ummmmmm..... why do I feel like this violates some unspoken musicians code?Maybe I'd feel different if I were a better musician, but man... I don't think I could do that.Or are you joking? Mike you should abandon this whacky "use a real keyboard" notion you have, and just buy a bunch of backing tracks for your band. Think of the possibilities!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Mike you should abandon this whacky "use a real keyboard" notion you have, and just buy a bunch of backing tracks for your band. Think of the possibilities!!! Why bother with backing tracks. Just sing over the original record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Mike you should abandon this whacky "use a real keyboard" notion you have, and just buy a bunch of backing tracks for your band. Think of the possibilities!!! Honestly, the keyboard is helping me "see" scales, etc, a lot lot more clearly, so I might stick with it for a while. Maybe we'll do full tracks NEXT year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 I've learned that there are two "b" words sure to polarize. Backing tracks here on BSWTB and Behr***** over on Live Sound. My main band is a 5-piece with very super talented people (and then I show up) and one of them is keys/violin and sometimes he pulls out the French horn. Picture that coming out for a solo in Saftey Dance. Epic. Anyways he and our bassist play with a national classic rock act and if they have to go and we just can't cancel then out comes the tracks and a fill-in bassist. But we use them sparingly. Sort of like spice. Too much and we've busted the recipe. But that's our recipe, the crowd goes wide regardless of tracks or we're laying it down with bass, gtr and drums with our vocalist out front. As Grant and David have pointed out (IMHO from what you've posted) that it's how you use them. And that's up to you and your band to decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mstreck Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Why bother with backing tracks. Just sing over the original record. If we just lip-synch, we won't get winded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 :facepalm:BTW, we use the "tracks" sparingly, not the fill in bassist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jealousblues Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Ive always heard that many major concert acts use tracks like its matter of fact. I dont know if it is, but its what ive always heard. (even if its extra vocal or guitar tracks to sound bigger) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Ive always heard that many major concert acts use tracks like its matter of fact. I dont know if it is, but its what ive always heard.(even if its extra vocal or guitar tracks to sound bigger) Many, many do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stratotastic Posted June 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Really appreciate the insights so far. Here's a friendly request that we can try keep this discussion focused on the nuts and bolts of implementing/using backing tracks rather than the ethics of it. That's a whole separate conversation, which I'd be happy to start in a separate thread if needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Ive always heard that many major concert acts use tracks like its matter of fact. I dont know if it is, but its what ive always heard.(even if its extra vocal or guitar tracks to sound bigger) Here's a recording from Bono's IEM mix for One Tree Hill. Note the cues he's hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 No surprise at all. It's 4 guys. Their recordings after the first couple of albums are pretty damn layered.I actually just caught a few minutes of them playing at the top of the BBC a few years ago, doing Beautiful Day and Elevation. Larry Mullen Jr.'s got 2 hands last I looked, but there's backing percussion in both songs when played live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Kmart, you're using a Mac with Mainstage for your tracks? Can you walk us through your set up? Sounds like you have lots of control over the tracks from what I remember of a previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 No surprise at all. I think U2 pratically pioneered the use of tracks live. I remember seeing them on the "Zoo TV" tour for "Achtung Baby". Sounded like I was listening to a CD. Then again, maybe I was. Amazing concert though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members n9ne Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Personally, I think audiences are becoming more and more focused on the visual aspect of a performance, and not so much interested in whether artists are actually performing the music live. Everyone remembers the whole Milli Vanilli scandal, when it was discovered that they were not only lip-syncing to tracks, but that they weren't even the actual artists on the recordings. At the time, it was an earth-shattering revelation that ended their careers and pretty much destroyed their lives. Then a few years ago, Ashley Simpson was caught lip-syncing on SNL. It was news, and raised some eyebrows....but while she caught a lot of backlash, it was nothing compared to the Milli Vanilli story. But nowadays, artists make no effort to hide the fact that they're playing to tracks, or that the music is coming from a computer instead of actual instruments. It's become very common for artists to do a "live" performance all by themselves with no band or instruments, or with only dancers to support them. They're clearly performing to tracks, and in many cases the lip-syncing is obvious...but nobody in the audience seems to think twice about it. Heck, just this morning I happened to see Chris Brown performing on GMA.....and while he did have a band on the stage, there was a point during the choreographed portion of the chorus where he didn't even pretend to be singing....he just kept going through the choreogrphed dance moves as the pre-recorded (and heavily auto-tuned) vocals continued to play. Do you think his crowd noticed or cared? Not a whit. Most musicians obviously possess a certain amount of musical integrity, and would feel very uncomfortable "faking it" to a pre-recorded track. Many musicians would flatly refuse, and would turn down a gig that asked them to do so. But the fact is, computer-generated music is becoming more and more prevalent, particularly in dance and top 40 music genres....and the younger generation of listeners are being programmed to not only not care...in many cases, they seem to prefer the synthetic nature of computer-driven music to the more organic human feel of tradional music. The times, they are a-changin', folks. And the traditional instrumentalists (like us) have to decide whether to accept the increasingly blurred line between music and technology, or whether to stand fast in our own beliefs in more traditional forms of music, even if it means pigeonholing ourselves and potentially limiting our long-term marketability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Most musicians obviously possess a certain amount of musical integrity, and would feel very uncomfortable "faking it" to a pre-recorded track. Many musicians would flatly refuse, and would turn down a gig that asked them to do so. There's a wide, wide gulf between "faking it" and playing along with a track. Would I take a gig where I was asked to play keys along with some tracks? Sure. Why not? I'M playing. MY parts are what they are whether I'm playing along with a track or along with other musicians. MY musical integrity is intact. Would I take a gig where I was asked to "fake" playing keyboard parts and lip-sync vocals? No. Not unless they paid me very, very well and then I wouldn't consider my job to be one of "musician" but one of "stage performer" whose background of being an actual keyboard player makes me well suited for being able to put on a good stage performance. Singer/dancers? That's a different deal. I don't necessarily fault the Chris Brown types who sing-along-with (or maybe even completely lip sync) their vocals while doing dance moves I couldn't even begin to attempt. There's only so much a human body can do at once and if their audiences are expecting a bunch of singing AND dancing...then you gotta do what you gotta do to make the show work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 I can only give you basic info., as I don't do any of the programming/set-up: I run the laptop for rehearsals & gigs, but our front man does all the track building and set up the automation we use. Right now we've got Logic controlling Mainstage (and DMXIS for lights). Mainstage is where our in-ear monitor mix lives as well. We've gone back and forth a few different configurations over the past year to circumvent some technical issues/challenges, and at present, the tracks are locked as far as mixing goes; basically we're playing back the equivalent of a 'locked' mP3, even though it's technically a MIDI file at source. Previously, we had things set where I had access to individual 'channels' for each individual instrument in a given sequence, so if on a given night we wanted to lose a piano part in a certain song for example, we could. Ultimately, we still have control over the individual instruments if we want to revert to it, but with the current show play-back, the machine runs cleaner for us. Again, we've had some noise/minor issues in the past few months, including a full-stop Mainstage quit/shut-down incident last month (The first time we've ever had a real issue with anything associated with the tracks/playback in 3 years). We think it's actually the (relatively) new laptop being used, as the problems coincided with that. In a sense, right now we're running our 'backup plan' for the live show (mp3s with a separate click send for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 I think U2 pratically pioneered the use of tracks live. Nah, not even close. Not that The Who were the first either, but even when they did have Rabbit Bundrick on stage, those iconic synth parts Townshend created were ALL canned live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Not that The Who were the first either, but even when they did have Rabbit Bundrick on stage, those iconic synth parts Townshend created were ALL canned live. True. (which is why I said "practically".. ) But I was thinking more in terms of bands who track entire songs and significant 'parts' rather than just sequency-sounding do-dad parts like The Who used. Those parts were canned because they couldn't BE practically played by anyone. U2's tracked parts exist (it seems) because they don't want to have any other musicians on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 Not that The Who were the first either, but even when they did have Rabbit Bundrick on stage, those iconic synth parts Townshend created were ALL canned live. Were they on something like a Studer or Ampeg reel? What a mess that must have been. Great video, there are a couple more out there from this same gig. Love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 True. (which is why I said "practically".. ) But I was thinking more in terms of bands who track entire songs and significant 'parts' rather than just sequency-sounding do-dad parts like The Who used. Those parts were canned because they couldn't BE practically played by anyone. U2's tracked parts exist (it seems) because they don't want to have any other musicians on stage. Corect IMO. Terry Lawless was one of the musicians in U2's Underworld (beneath the stage) during the 360 Tour. He gets the big screen treatment during his B3 solo on Unknown Caller as well as an intro from Bono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BATCAT Posted June 8, 2012 Moderators Share Posted June 8, 2012 Were they on something like a Studer or Ampeg reel? What a mess that must have been. Great video, there are a couple more out there from this same gig. Love it. I remember reading an interview with Boris Williams (the Cure's drummer for many years) about his period as the Thompson Twin's live drummer in the early 80s. They used backing tapes and apparently they'd expand or contract with varying temperatures and change pitch and cause all kinds of nightmares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Leftcoast123 Posted June 8, 2012 Members Share Posted June 8, 2012 I can only give you basic info., as I don't do any of the programming/set-up: I run the laptop for rehearsals & gigs, but our front man does all the track building and set up the automation we use.Right now we've got Logic controlling Mainstage (and DMXIS for lights). Mainstage is where our in-ear monitor mix lives as well. We've gone back and forth a few different configurations over the past year to circumvent some technical issues/challenges, and at present, the tracks are locked as far as mixing goes; basically we're playing back the equivalent of a 'locked' mP3, even though it's technically a MIDI file at source. Previously, we had things set where I had access to individual 'channels' for each individual instrument in a given sequence, so if on a given night we wanted to lose a piano part in a certain song for example, we could. Ultimately, we still have control over the individual instruments if we want to revert to it, but with the current show play-back, the machine runs cleaner for us. Again, we've had some noise/minor issues in the past few months, including a full-stop Mainstage quit/shut-down incident last month (The first time we've ever had a real issue with anything associated with the tracks/playback in 3 years). We think it's actually the (relatively) new laptop being used, as the problems coincided with that. In a sense, right now we're running our 'backup plan' for the live show (mp3s with a separate click send for me). Very nice set up. Yeah, when it fails, it fails bad. Combining everything...lighting cues to the sequence is the big time IMO. That's a lot of work and must be incredible to use let alone the show it gives the venue. Does your programmer give you two bars of click before the sequence kicks in? Any vocal cues in your mix? Some of the best tracks I've used have had the programmer speaking the title, the amount of count in, the count in with the click and then cues such as "...bridge coming up in 3, 2, 1". "..ending with a double shot in two bars....." well you get it. For those reading this thinking WTF, it works really, really well but obviously isn't for everyone. It took me some time to get used to it that 's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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