Members wades_keys Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Different rules apply to metal methinks. Not saying this as a slam on metal. But I think I understand that scene pretty well, based on past experience.Think about it: it's not a popular form of music. Gigs barely pay if at all. Even the popular bands probably don't do as well financially as some cover bands. Different rules apply. And: how do you judge "good" metal? Even the metal heads are constantly b***g about what "sucks" and what doesn't. A very fractured scene full of angry young men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys Different rules apply to metal methinks. Not saying this as a slam on metal. But I think I understand that scene pretty well, based on past experience. Think about it: it's not a popular form of music. Gigs barely pay if at all. Even the popular bands probably don't do as well financially as some cover bands. Different rules apply. And: how do you judge "good" metal? Even the metal heads are constantly b***g about what "sucks" and what doesn't. A very fractured scene full of angry young men. It's actually a really inclusive community with a few snobs scattered around. Like any music scene really. The metal crowd ihas been incredibly receptive to us. The prog crowd is a lot worse in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Originally Posted by SLScott86 The prog crowd is a lot worse in that regard. Possibly. Always a vocal minority somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Potts Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 I loved old "Yes" but the Trevor Rabin years were awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Originally Posted by Potts I loved old "Yes" but the Trevor Rabin years were awesome. Great example of a band able to re-invent itself and be artistically relevant in a new era. Not too bands have been able to pull that off successfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vanlatte Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Originally Posted by guido61 Great example of a band able to re-invent itself and be artistically relevant in a new era. Not too bands have been able to pull that off successfully. For epic failure see: Billy Squire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Originally Posted by vanlatte For epic failure see: Billy Squire When and how did he try to reinvent himself? Hell he was old when he broke big in early 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sillypeoples Posted December 4, 2012 Members Share Posted December 4, 2012 Originally Posted by SeniorBlues A good description. Sometimes the "bait and switch" is intentional deception; other times, it's their idea of what "normal" is. I have had long post-first-rehearsal discussions and even sent a long email once. I look back on each of these attempts to clarify my reasons for not continuing and I wonder . . . . what was the point? One guy did respond by thanking me for my candor. You have manners, but not everyone takes 'I am dissolving our relationship for the following reasons....1, 2, 3, 3a ' very well. I do it too...probably because my personality profile needs closure. I've written my share to family, friends, band members, etc. Some would say it's best not to say anything....let it fizzle....but I prefer finality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by Sillypeoples You have manners, but not everyone takes 'I am dissolving our relationship for the following reasons....1, 2, 3, 3a ' very well. I do it too...probably because my personality profile needs closure. I've written my share to family, friends, band members, etc. Some would say it's best not to say anything....let it fizzle....but I prefer finality. Relationship? Does participation in a single audition/rehearsal/jam constitute a "relationship"? Not in my book - no more than a "first date and no more" would. An "I am dissolving our relationsip for reasons 1, 2, 3, 3a..." explanation in the wake of a "flat" first date is NOT good manners my friend - it borders on stalker/psycho {censored}. Just because my path has crossed that of a "first date", a car salesman, a telemarketeer, a band leader that clearly misrepresented the band in question - I am under NO obligation whatsoever to explain the reasons I do not care to become involved with them. A polite "I'll think about it ..." is enough to disengage, maybe a succinct "no thanks" under the right circumstances - is more than enough. If you get an "I'll think about it ...." response from somebody who then makes no effort to contact you within a reasonable time frame - you've received the finality you prefer. The question at that point is whether you're astute enough to realize it. If you don't - that's your issue - not the issue of whoever sent you the message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ForgetMeNacht Posted December 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 I tell potential members that if they don't like it for any reason, just let me know they are no longer in the band. Still they just give the silent treatment even after telling it to them straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by ForgetMeNacht I tell potential members that if they don't like it for any reason, just let me know they are no longer in the band. ForgetMeNacht - I don't want to come across as being judgemental about your particular situation. My previous comments about how I've handled what I've referred to as "bait and switch" in auditions I've been out on were not meant to insinuate that's what you're doing - but rather simply an explanation of why I have shown up for one practice/audition/jam and then disappeared. My comments about the quote above are a little more specific however. Is it possible that your assumptions/impressions about player status are not the same as the players themselves? Taking your quote literally - I'll make the following observation: If I'm a potential member - I don't consider myself to be "in the band" (and therefore have obligation to tell you I'm no longer in the band). Are you having specific converstions with the guys in questions that have offered them a position? Have they made any sort of commitment to "join the band" - or to return for the next rehearsal/practice/set of the audition process? If I have that sort of conversation with a band leader - and make a firm commitment to attend a specific rehearsal/practice/audition, etc. - I consider myself on the hook to let them know if I'm not going to be there (or have changed my mind about going any further with the project). I have run into band leaders who haven't had a clear conversation about whether or not I was being offered a position - and simply talked about the "next rehearsal". If I'm not told I'm being offered a position (especially if I'm not totally enthralled by the project in the first place) - I have no problem leaving quietly and not returning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ForgetMeNacht Posted December 5, 2012 Author Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 I'm not on the least bit defensive. Like I've said, I do have a band that has a full live line up albeit a basic one(one guitar,vox, drums and bass) so I can't say that there is anything wrong. I tell the person that this doesn't look like his thing, he his more than welcome to pass. The person nods yes and says he'll be there next practice and then *poof* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by ForgetMeNacht I'm not on the least bit defensive. Like I've said, I do have a band that has a full live line up albeit a basic one(one guitar,vox, drums and bass) so I can't say that there is anything wrong. I tell the person that this doesn't look like his thing, he his more than welcome to pass. The person nods yes and says he'll be there next practice and then *poof* Sounds like you've had bad luck running into flakey musicians. As others have pointed out, there's no shortage of 'em out there! All you can do is keep trying. Good luck in finding the right person for your band! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sillypeoples Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by SpaceNorman Relationship? Does participation in a single audition/rehearsal/jam constitute a "relationship"? Not in my book - no more than a "first date and no more" would. An "I am dissolving our relationsip for reasons 1, 2, 3, 3a..." explanation in the wake of a "flat" first date is NOT good manners my friend - it borders on stalker/psycho {censored}. Just because my path has crossed that of a "first date", a car salesman, a telemarketeer, a band leader that clearly misrepresented the band in question - I am under NO obligation whatsoever to explain the reasons I do not care to become involved with them. A polite "I'll think about it ..." is enough to disengage, maybe a succinct "no thanks" under the right circumstances - is more than enough. If you get an "I'll think about it ...." response from somebody who then makes no effort to contact you within a reasonable time frame - you've received the finality you prefer. The question at that point is whether you're astute enough to realize it. If you don't - that's your issue - not the issue of whoever sent you the message. Space - You make a valid point, but civility is a cornerstone of civilisation. Mentally speaking, if you have ever needed to have focus and concentration, the less on your your mind, the less distractions the better. So consider the girl you slept with but didn't call, the bills you didn't pay, the unresolved issues with family and friends, lack of closure, PTSD...the list goes on....where some closure and finality of the situation can relieve your mind, and theirs if you are caring, up front, and everyone moves on.....if you wonder why so many people are on the couches and taking meds, many of the issues are 'so tell me about your childhood and relationships'...... Yes, I get how after a bleak audition, a long winded letter to the band leader detailing point by point your issues with his hygiene, position on drug use, playing ability, etc etc, borders on the overkill and can be hurtful, missing the point that in the end you just want to extract yourself from the situation. Sure I get that....but I don't think leaving people hanging is a better choice...and the choice I typically make is to state resolution, even if they don't like the reasons for my severing of the relationship. This might seem hurtful, but need moral justification in my life, I ponder my choices, and I feel that as human being and not an ape that flings poo, my foot print on this world will be one of a high order. Some can walk through this life and make connections with others, and beings, and not consider any attachment nor responsibility toward them.....I personally am not wired that way. All that said, yes, I get where two people bumping in the night don't need a formal declaration of relationship or severance, but I think a band that calls you to an audition, has gigs lined up and is expecting some response, shouldn't be continually calling unreturned voice mails and emails, wondering what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by SpaceNorman Sounds like you've had bad luck running into flakey musicians. As others have pointed out, there's no shortage of 'em out there! All you can do is keep trying. Good luck in finding the right person for your band! It might be regional. He's only 40 miles or so away from where I live. There are quite a lot of wannabe musicians, especially guitarists, in an around Louisville metro area. And this kind of silent blow-off treatment is pretty common when working with unknown quantities. That's why I don't work with unknown quantities anymore. My theory is this: there are too many players and not enough gigs. Therefore, many "start up" or less motivated players give up on the idea of working towards gigs before they even start. They don't WANT to do the work to get the gigs. They just want to "jam". To them, not showing up is no big deal: they're probably on the other side of town "jamming" with some other group of dudes, or hitting the craigslist again, and again..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Piano Whore Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 ^ Well, good that somebody's jamming, at least. All my muso friends seem to be mercenary-prostitutes who can't be bothered to pick up their axe except for $100, or to learn a song that will earn them $100. Whores, every one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wades_keys Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by Piano Whore ^ Well, good that somebody's jamming, at least. All my muso friends seem to be mercenary-prostitutes who can't be bothered to pick up their axe except for $100, or to learn a song that will earn them $100. Whores, every one! I resemble that remark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted December 5, 2012 Members Share Posted December 5, 2012 Originally Posted by Sillypeoples Space - You make a valid point, but civility is a cornerstone of civilisation. Mentally speaking, if you have ever needed to have focus and concentration, the less on your your mind, the less distractions the better. So consider the girl you slept with but didn't call, the bills you didn't pay, the unresolved issues with family and friends, lack of closure, PTSD...the list goes on....where some closure and finality of the situation can relieve your mind, and theirs if you are caring, up front, and everyone moves on.....if you wonder why so many people are on the couches and taking meds, many of the issues are 'so tell me about your childhood and relationships'...... Yes, I get how after a bleak audition, a long winded letter to the band leader detailing point by point your issues with his hygiene, position on drug use, playing ability, etc etc, borders on the overkill and can be hurtful, missing the point that in the end you just want to extract yourself from the situation. Sure I get that....but I don't think leaving people hanging is a better choice...and the choice I typically make is to state resolution, even if they don't like the reasons for my severing of the relationship. This might seem hurtful, but need moral justification in my life, I ponder my choices, and I feel that as human being and not an ape that flings poo, my foot print on this world will be one of a high order. Some can walk through this life and make connections with others, and beings, and not consider any attachment nor responsibility toward them.....I personally am not wired that way. All that said, yes, I get where two people bumping in the night don't need a formal declaration of relationship or severance, but I think a band that calls you to an audition, has gigs lined up and is expecting some response, shouldn't be continually calling unreturned voice mails and emails, wondering what happened. I'm certainly not advocating incivility. Where we seem to be miles apart are in our interpretations of what constitutes a relationship and the levels of obligation associated with different types of relationships. This thread has revolved around the issue of guys that have showed up to a single event (i.e., audition, rehearsal, jam, etc.) and disappeared. In my book - this can't be construed as a relationship - it's essentially a "meet and greet". As far as I'm concerned, the only obligation either party has to one another at this stage of the game is to be polite and not outright dishonest. As long as everybody says what they'll do - and then does what they said - that's all that can be reasonably expected at this stage of the game. Your comments seem to suggest that even a casual meeting (like a single audition) constitues a "relationship" that obligates both parties to provide detailed reasons for their decisions. I certainly don't see it that way. As long as everybody says what they'll do - and then does what they said - that's all that can be reasonably expected at this stage of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sillypeoples Posted December 6, 2012 Members Share Posted December 6, 2012 [quote=SpaceNorman;47229521Your comments seem to suggest that even a casual meeting (like a single audition) constitues a "relationship" that obligates both parties to provide detailed reasons for their decisions. I certainly don't see it that way. As long as everybody says what they'll do - and then does what they said - that's all that can be reasonably expected at this stage of the game.You are probably right but I think most just stop returning phone calls and emails out of fear of confrontation......I tend to send a note, severing the relationship cleanly...certainly not required as you say by Emily Post standards...and can provide some butt hurt when giving reasons...by I don't like loose ends...I like clean breaks. Out of sight, out of mind. Done. Move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members maarkr Posted December 9, 2012 Members Share Posted December 9, 2012 I live in an area that's not a large population area. I advertised for a year on CL (prob the best way to search in our area). Finally got in with some guys that seemed to get along until the head guy thought I was being too controlling by offering potential songs to learn. So the bassist didn't like the guy either so we tried to get more players. He wanted to switch to guitar, so it took us a year of having people come and play and finally have 4 guys that get along for now. If u start from scratch, be up front with what songs you want to do and your talent, as well as other expectations. Stick to it. If you get wackos, they won't like you and leave...that's OK. If you get guys that think they are too good and leave cause they want to play out right away...that's OK. You won't work well as a group until you find people that's satisfied with each other's talent and want to play similar genres. It takes time, communication, and some give and take, or you can move on. But I've also met some wierdos that I understand why they will never work in a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beatpoet Posted December 9, 2012 Members Share Posted December 9, 2012 Originally Posted by wades_keys My theory is this: there are too many players and not enough gigs. Therefore, many "start up" or less motivated players give up on the idea of working towards gigs before they even start. They don't WANT to do the work to get the gigs. They just want to "jam". To them, not showing up is no big deal: they're probably on the other side of town "jamming" with some other group of dudes, or hitting the craigslist again, and again..... Further on from them wanting to jam, I think those types just want to have "fun". It's like they can't separate their band time from their social life, so they're all enthusiastic when they meet and discuss the band (especially if the venue for the meeting is a pub). As soon as they get to a glum rehearsal room, with grey carpet on the floor and walls, and they're expected to learn a bunch of songs (ie. do some work), they're like "this isn't fun". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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