Members rodclement Posted January 21, 2012 Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 We have this Irish bar in our area that we have been trying to add to our monthly rotation for a while now with no success, I have gotten to know the owner and staff very well but no gigs... In December I get a call from the owner asking if we can fill in a date for him since one of his usuals cancelled, this is the week prior so I move our schedules around and make it happen. We pump face book, get about 30 people there and have a great night with many compliments from the staff, etc. A couple of days goes by and I do a follow-up with the owner, he is very happy and all but still unwilling to change his regular line-up since they have been always the same, and it works for him... Now he calls me again and asks us to sub for another act in a couple of weeks and here we go again...no promotion from his side, no full pay since we are "subbing" and no commitment to a spot in his rotation... I have no problems doing a last minute gig but it needs to be one or the other, either we are subbing and getting full pay, or we are giving him a break with the promise that we will eventually make it into the rotation. Just venting here, we are doing the gig since we have the date open any way, we do most private gigs so doing an open venue is always good exposure but it sucks to promote to our friends, with no support from the venue, or even full pay, not so sure if I will be so wiling to comply next time... Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jersey Jack Posted January 21, 2012 Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 Why would a subbing band not get full pay? I mean, you are doing the gig, so why wouldn't you get the $? Are you suggesting that the regular band gets a cut even when they don't play? I would just talk to the owner. Ask him explicitly if filling in is a way to get into the regular rotation. If so, you do what you have to do. If not, you can decide to take the gigs or not with full awareness. FWIW, I wouldn't take a gig for less than the going rate unless there was some promise of getting into the regular rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 21, 2012 Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 Like Jersey Jack, I'm thinking "WTF?" about subbing for less $$$...you're doing HIM a favor by covering his ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 21, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 I should clarify that less pay than our usual rate, not what he pays other duos. I did the gig for less pay than usual with an implied suggestion from him that we would be considered for rotation and now he asks us to fill again, for less pay, yet no inclusion in the rotation...that's why I am pissed! His logic is that since we are filling in and last minute, we will not draw as many people, hence less pay, BS! I have been there when his regulars play and they draw alright! Flies that is! The real issue is that we get paid more than most duo's around here do so our regular rate is already high, the bartender told me that our "discounted" rate is more than what the owner already pays some of the regular acts...in the owners mind he is already paying us in full, if we go into rotation, he would have to pay us OUR usual rate, not HIS usual rate. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_big_e Posted January 21, 2012 Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 First time up you were looking for a way in so it paid (so to speak) to take less than your normal rate for the gig. He's seen you play, he's seen your draw, now he's just taking the piss. He's thinking he can get this good act (above his normal 'grade') for the same or only slightly more than he's paying his regular acts when needed. Why wouldn't he do that. He's already said he's no interest in changing his regular rotation. You know the situation now. If you're not happy paying that gig on this basis for the agreed upon pay (less than your normal rate) then don't do it. Even if you get the gig, it seems to me it's likely that he's only going to pay you at this rate so you've lost out. Unless there's a god reason to keep at working this venue and trying to get in I think you'd be better of expending your energies elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 21, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2012 I agree 100%, hence me venting my frustration... Next time he calls, I will play if we have an open date that works for us, and if he pays our rate. The root issues is local musicians playing for peanuts and driving the market down! Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted January 22, 2012 Members Share Posted January 22, 2012 I should clarify that less pay than our usual rate, not what he pays other duos.I did the gig for less pay than usual with an implied suggestion from him that we would be considered for rotation and now he asks us to fill again, for less pay, yet no inclusion in the rotation...that's why I am pissed! His logic is that since we are filling in and last minute, we will not draw as many people, hence less pay, BS! I have been there when his regulars play and they draw alright! Flies that is!The real issue is that we get paid more than most duo's around here do so our regular rate is already high, the bartender told me that our "discounted" rate is more than what the owner already pays some of the regular acts...in the owners mind he is already paying us in full, if we go into rotation, he would have to pay us OUR usual rate, not HIS usual rate.Rod Ah, now it makes sense. You probably can figure out why he isn't putting you in rotation, right? He has established what he is going to pay his acts, they have all agreed to that. You are higher, giving him a discount just to 'help him out' but if he were to put you into rotation, you would expect to get paid your regular rate, right? He probably can't justify the expense and this is why you aren't there. We're running into a similar problem with a local club. They have a specific amount of money they pay all their bands. One band from out of town recently asked for more money. I have been told that they are no longer going to be hired because of that. So obviously the bands know what they are getting into when they work there. They are getting a specific amount and you either take it or leave it. The bands in rotation have all taken it and a lot of them also drink a lot, so the club basically gets back a lot of their money. Our band doesn't really do that, so we haven't been a first call group because of that (we don't hang out at the bar every week). If we do get into rotation, it will be a miracle. But one thing I know for sure, we won't be asking for a raise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted January 22, 2012 Members Share Posted January 22, 2012 breaking in to an established rotation can be tough, when a bar has been working with acts on a regular basis. we have acts that have played our home dig, that I know will never get a regular slot. They get booked when they need to fill in an open night when the regular guys cant be there for his night. thats basically just how it works. Venues like to keep their first string line up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 22, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2012 I agree with you both, my problem is with the lack of vision by the owner...this venue has two floors, on one he does acoustic acts and on the other he does dj. When we played there, more people where in our floor than with the dj, we had people dancing and the bar had the best comparable night in along time, according to the bar manager...what the owner wants is a quiet upstairs and a busy downstairs, where the dj is so I guess that by doing our jobs well, we conflict with the owners vision for his venue...oh well... Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Quarterwave Posted January 23, 2012 Members Share Posted January 23, 2012 Sometimes it's good to turn a venue down.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members doezer Posted January 23, 2012 Members Share Posted January 23, 2012 it sounds pretty simple from here...youre too expensive for him. your acts discounted rate is dearer than what he pays at top level for duos... and therein lies your problem, which will never resolve unless you decide youd really like the gig regularly and take the financial hit,or vice versa although somehow i wouldnt see that happening... because then he would open up a whole can of worms with other acts etc.. maybe u should just continue as is, i.e. using each other occasionally when it suits you both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 23, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 23, 2012 it sounds pretty simple from here...youre too expensive for him. your acts discounted rate is dearer than what he pays at top level for duos...and therein lies your problem, which will never resolve unless you decide youd really like the gig regularly and take the financial hit,or vice versa although somehow i wouldnt see that happening... because then he would open up a whole can of worms with other acts etc..maybe u should just continue as is, i.e. using each other occasionally when it suits you both. This is where my mind is at right now...if he calls and we have an open date that works for us and we can use to promote our duo and possibly get more clients, great! But I will no longer try to break into his rotation, if he doesn't see the value then it's well past me trying to explain it to him. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pinkfloydcramer61 Posted January 24, 2012 Members Share Posted January 24, 2012 As an aside, has anyone here ever took a gig for initially lower pay, with the expectation that the pay would go up on later gigs, and actually have it work out that way? In my experience, that is very rare. I have seen alot of solo/duo acts attempt that and be disappointed- even when the initial gig went very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted January 24, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 24, 2012 After reading this over, Rod, I have to think that this is never going to work out to your satisfaction. The owner isn't going to up the ante unless you can prove that his mediocre pay attacts mediocre talent and that you can bring in a much more sizable crowd every time you play, so you are worth the price. And, since yo uhave already performed and brought in your following, you probably won't convince him of that...because you don't want to spend too many nights playing for his mediocre pay. And to way2def, once, we took a gig at a low rate to prove our worth, and wound up not only being regulars, but being the highest paid band in the rotation because, on top of it all, the owner liked what we did, and would come in on the nights we played just to hang out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 24, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 24, 2012 Agree ang agree. Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2012 Well the weirdness continues! Now we are invited back, for the third time, offered our full fare, but still not in the official rotation and that's fine for me! We have now played there once a month for the last 3 months, same as if we were in the official rotation but with no obligation to commit to a date! And this time we are on their website calendar... Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted January 30, 2012 Members Share Posted January 30, 2012 When I can't figure out someone else's actions, I (sometimes) recall that I often can't figure out my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted January 30, 2012 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2012 Genius! I may have to use this one from time to time! Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Telecruiser Posted January 30, 2012 Members Share Posted January 30, 2012 Just forget about him. If you have an established rate then charge it. If he doesn't pay it then move on. With me, I just don't need the heartburn. Trying to figure out what the owner needs or wants to do can't be done unless you are standing in his/her shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rodclement Posted February 14, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 14, 2012 ...thread resurection...got a call today and we are now in the official rotation...first Thursday of every month at our full rate plus a full bar tab. Took longer than i would have wanted but the outcome is what i had planned on, good room, once a month, great for exposure! Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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