Budget PA for starting out

[macca1980]

Hi,

 

I am starting a duo very soon, with one guitar 2 vocals & a cajon drum. We are just at the rehearsing stage & its sounding ok.

Any suggestions for a good PA, we will be playing small pubs to start off.

I have been told that a PA with 250w per speaker would be sufficient for our needs.

 

Does a 250w per side mean its a 500w PA?

Should you get speakers that can handle more than the output of the mixer to prevent them burstin ?

[Terry Allan Hall]

Yeah, pretty much...for acoustic music, figure 1 watt per audience member, so 500 watts is plenty, and will allow you to get up to reasonably large venues. OTOH, if you go "electric", figure about 2-3watts per audience member, so venues up to 200 folks...or more power.

 

You might consider where you'll be taking this venture, in deciding how many channels your PA should have...for instance, I'd only buy a 4-channel it I knew I'd only be playing solo, which gives you 1 channel for voice, 1 channel for instrument, and a couple of spares, "just in case"...

 

OTOH, for 1 guitar, 2 voices, and hand percussion, a six-channel is the least number of channels you should consider...but what if you eventually want to add another guitar, or a bassist, and they both sing? Potentially, that's 8 channels needed...and it's often less expensive to bite the bullet and get the right mixer from the get-go, if possible (it would've saved me quite a bit of cash! ).

 

A good rule of thumb is that you can never have too many channels or too many watts...My PA is 3 X 333 watts/12 channels, and that's for my trio (vocals/guitar, vocals/bass, vocal/percussion - which comes to 7 to 8 channels, w/ 4 more for when guests sit in, or I hire an extra menber to play higher-$$$ gigs).

 

So, the moral of this long-winded story is: think about where you're going, and buy accordingly, even if you have to buy used...

[Telecruiser]

What's your budget? You get one type of PA for $500-$1000 and another for $1500-$3000. There are those that are happy with a budget Carvin system and there are a lot of folks that love the Bose system. I use 2 JBL PRX 612's and couldn't be happier.

[macca1980]

Thanks for your reply, i will look further into this

[joshmac]

Also, can someone recommend a solid 8-10 channel mixer that wont break the bank?

[Miko Man]

 

Also, can someone recommend a solid 8-10 channel mixer that wont break the bank?

 

 

Unless you are talking about a Greek bank, take a look at the Soundcraft EPM8. Eight preamps, and two stereo channels, for a total of 10 channels. Real faders, not knobs; three band EQ on the channels. ~$300 U.S. YMMV. Mark C.

[richardmac]

Yamaha MG102C. Only $99, decent mixer. The Soundcraft is better, the Yamaha is "good enough."

 

macca1980, this topic is near and dear to my heart! One of the biggest reasons I was excited to get this forum here (solo and duo) is to discuss PA systems, because we have unique needs. The most important question is how much money you want to spend, which Telecruiser already asked. But this can be a difficult question if you don't know a lot about small PA's.

 

I would strongly encourage you to continue to have a dialog in this thread as you audition various speakers and systems. There's a TON of experienced solo musicians here who really understand small PA needs.

 

Here's some general guidelines. If you spend less than $400 on an entire system, it will be crap and you will end up buying something better for more money. NOTE - I'm talking new. Used is a totally different beast. I may get raked over the coals for saying this, but on the low end I'd consider the Fender Passport 150 for $400. It can handle two vocals and a guitar, and despite the fact that the speakers are tiny, it actually sounds pretty decent for not a lot of money. It's lightweight, compact, and very easy to set up.

 

The downside is that the Passport system will only cover 50 - 100 people if they're all sitting quietly. If you want to be able to manage being heard in a venue with 50+ people who are drinking, you need to drop more money on a PA. Buy once, cry once, as they say. For mixer/amp, I like the Yamaha series. The EMX312SC is 300 wpc into 4 ohms per side and $469. It has a great track record. The more expensive EMX512SC is 500 wpc into 4 ohms and is the better deal, for $569. For speakers, if weight doesn't matter, the EV ELX112's are killer speakers for $600 per pair. IMHO you will not find a better sounding $300 speaker anywhere. The drawback is that they're plywood and they're 35 pounds, so not lightweight but not killer heavy either.

 

You can go in between - you can buy Behringer instead of Yamaha, and you can buy Peavey PR12's instead of EV's. Behringer has many supporters and many detractors - it's sort of a gamble. Their stuff is inexpensive and decent sounding, but the reliability is a coin toss. If you buy Behringer, get an extended warranty and have a backup plan in case it craps out at a gig, and you'll be OK. IMHO it's better to spend the money on something good. The Peavey PR speakers are favorites of budget musicians because they're cheap ($189 for a 2 way 12 inch) and they weight next to nothing and they're very durable. They sound OK, as long as you don't push them too hard. Crank them up and they sound like ass. Put them next to the EV speakers and you'll fall down laughing at the difference. Everyone seems to buy a pair of PR 12's, and then eventually buy something better.

 

There's always the BOSE debate. You can get the low end BOSE system for the price of a EMX312SC and a pair of ELX112's. The Bose system is lightweight and compact and easy to move and set up. But it can't match the EV speakers at the same price. You'd have to buy the GOOD Bose system at double the money to match the sound quality. IMHO.

 

Which brings up the final point - lightweight, inexpensive, good sounding. Pick 2. That's the joke in live sound, but it's true.

[ptkbass]

 

Yamaha MG102C. .

 

 

I'd not consider anything without on board reverb. Even if you already own outboard effects, the gear requirements for a coffee shop/winery/small duo gig should lean heavily towards a small footprint, easy load in-n-out, and easy/quick setup and tear down. The vocals need 'verb. Outboard gear means a rack and lotsa goes-inta's and goes-outa's just for a little 'verb.

[wardjames]

 

Yamaha MG102C. Only $99, decent mixer. The Soundcraft is better, the Yamaha is "good enough." For mixer/amp, I like the Yamaha series. The EMX312SC is 300 wpc into 4 ohms per side and $469. It has a great track record. The more expensive EMX512SC is 500 wpc into 4 ohms and is the better deal, for $569.

 

 

The reason I like this advice if you're going budget is the powered mixer gives you a good back up option once you get a better PA if something in the PA goes down. Once word of caution is that you DO NOT want to buy Behringer Powered Mixers. The watts listed is VERY misleading. I have one of the PMP4000's, and I wouldn't want to use it (unless I absolutely had to) in a live setting (and then only for monitor use). It say's 300 watts at 8 ohms per side, but I don't know that I believe that. Actual watts vs. marketing watts is another thing to take a look at. See the live sound forum for stuff on this.

 

Anyway...I think a good powered mixer is a valuable tool now and even when you get some better gear in the future.

[dboomer]

A rule of thumb like "watts per person" is basically useless. That's like trying to figure out how fast a car can go by how many miles per gallon it gets. It also has almost no relationship for the quality of the sound or the coverage of the speaker.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Where did you come up with those figures? i have read that you should figure 10 watts per person indoors and 15 outside.

 

37 years of earning a pretty good living as an acoustic-based entertainer.

[richardmac]

 

I'd not consider anything without on board reverb. Even if you already own outboard effects, the gear requirements for a coffee shop/winery/small duo gig should lean heavily towards a small footprint, easy load in-n-out, and easy/quick setup and tear down. The vocals need 'verb. Outboard gear means a rack and lotsa goes-inta's and goes-outa's just for a little 'verb.

 

 

Yeah, that's a good point, actually. I didn't notice that it didn't have reverb.

[richardmac]

 

A rule of thumb like "watts per person" is basically useless. That's like trying to figure out how fast a car can go by how many miles per gallon it gets. It also has almost no relationship for the quality of the sound or the coverage of the speaker.

 

 

I think people just like to be able to ballpark things, but yeah, it doesn't make sense to me either. 1 watt per person means I could do a small gig for 20 people with a stereo setup with 10 watts per channel, and that would never work for me - I use backing tracks and I sing plus play keyboard or guitar. In my case, it's more like 10 watts per channel per 1 person. But I recently did a gig for 200 people using 600 watts total and it went absolutely fine. It was an older crowd, though, that didn't want to be blasted out. So yeah, I'd agree with you, dboomer. There are many variables - the music you're doing, the crowd, the room, the purpose (are you background music or are you "the show") and so on.

 

Best advice is to bring more power than you need.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Hi, I am starting a duo very soon, with one guitar 2 vocals & a cajon drum. We are just at the rehearsing stage & its sounding ok. Any suggestions for a good PA, we will be playing small pubs to start off. I have been told that a PA with 250w per speaker would be sufficient for our needs. Does a 250w per side mean its a 500w PA? Should you get speakers that can handle more than the output of the mixer to prevent them burstin ?

 

 

If you are starting from scratch. I would buy two powered speakers with 12 to 15 in speakers. Start with one if you have to. Get a passive mixer with effects. a couple stands and some mics, that will get you started. Buy more gear as you need it. One good quality powered speakers is better than 3 sup par ones. With a duo ,you can get a ton of milage out of a small amount of quality gear.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Also, can someone recommend a solid 8-10 channel mixer that wont break the bank?

 

 

I have a yamaha that has treated me right for several years. 8 hole passive mixer with fx I think knobs are more stable than sliders and also cheaper.

[Miko Man]

 

I have a yamaha that has treated me right for several years. 8 hole passive mixer with fx I think knobs are more stable than sliders and also cheaper.

 

 

Yamaha makes a lot of nice gear. I agree that knobs are generally cheaper than sliding faders. I find that a fader tends to have more travel than a knob, and thus it is easier to make finer adjustments with a fader. I also find that it is easier to see the relative amount of change using a fader than with a knob. YMMV. Mark C.

[Shaster]

To the OP - Budget?

 

The relatively new Soundcraft EFX line are nice mixers. So are the Yamaha mixers in that same class. I've used both. The Mackie Pro FX are not so nice but your mileage may vary.

 

I might prefer the Soundcraft EFX or EPM...because they have an internal power supply. That means no wall wart to use, loose or abuse. Just tuck an inexpensivie extra IEC cable in your guitar case for those Homer Simpson moments. But having said that, I really like the Yamaha small format mixers. They are very user friendly. I was doing a solo at a casino and they had this mixer http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_sound/mixers/analog-mixers/mg_series_cx_models/mg82cx/?mode=model with two Mackie SRM 350's. I'm not a huge Mackie fan, but as a total package this was a very simple system to operate, and it sounded good.

 

Whatever you do, get enough channels for any future projects - unless of course your first mixer is so cheap it can just be used for a back-up.

 

And don't forget to check out the Peavey PV series, if you're into Peavey.

 

BTW, I would seriously avoid the Fender Passport system. They are quite limited in their application IMO. And I would also avoid the Yamaha Stagepass or similar systems if you're ever thinking of micing the cajon drum. You might very well need some 12 inch or 15 inch speakers. Again not for the guitar or vocals but for the cajon - if it ever needs micing. Maybe you'll add a bass or something. It's always good to think ahead.

 

As far as watts, there's continuous, program and peak, so even if there was a magic formula you would have to define which watts, and which kind of music and venue and SPL expectations - you get the picture. You could try looking at the SPL ratings, but once again they can be arrived at differently from manufacturer to manufacturer.

[ptkbass]

 

I might prefer the Soundcraft EFX or EPM...because they have an internal power supply. That means no wall wart to use, loose or abuse. .

 

 

That, IMO, is a big big deal. Those proprietary wall warts are for {censored}.

[fingerpicker]

Why do the two of you (you know who) hate on eachother with personal attacks?

 

In fairness Carvin makes some good gear~~ and for an acoustic group you can get alot of mileage out of it. Im using the LM15a powered speakers and they sound great and I dont even use a mixer for my solo act! I have a pretty killer pedalboard setup with guitar/vocal fx at my feet so its just two speakers (unless i need the third one for monitor/more coverage).

 

Looks super clean too.

[Surrealistic]

I put my small PA system together a couple of years ago. A six channel Yamaha MG82CX (which has its own built-in FX - not the best FX I've ever heard but they're useable) and a pair of db Opera Lyric 15" 300W powered speakers. Does a really nice job in rooms for up to around 200 people and it cost me less than 500 GBP (around $750) from a couple of sellers on eBay.

[Louis Schwartz]

Budget is, as several have noted, a key questions here. For what it's worth, if you've got about $1000 to spend, give or take (and that seems to be the entry point for decent quality gear for a small acoustic ensemble looking to play small venues), then you're best bet is a small passive mixer like the Yamaha or Soundcraft mixers that have been recommended (the ones with effects)--or for a little more money, one of the Allen and Heath ZED mixers, plus either one or a pair of the best 10" or 12" powered speakers you can afford. You can get a Yamaha MG124cx and a pair of RCF 310a powered speakers for just a little over $1000. If that breaks the bank, you could go for 1 RCF 312a and the mixer for about $700 or go for one of the smaller mixers. If you don't need more then 4 mic inputs and a few stereo line inputs, something like a Soundcraft Notepad 124fx, which can still be had at Musician's Friend for $99, and a pair of RCF 312a's will only set you back about $900 ($850 if you get the 310a's), and you'll have a very nice little PA! Although I do agree with those who have warned you here about how quickly you can use up mic inputs. Get as many as your budget and your tolerance for size and portability will allow. And the smaller mixers are very basic in terms of function. Getting one of the larger ones will give you features you may not think you need now, but that you may find yourself growing into later (especially if you find yourself playing gigs that require monitors so you can hear yourselves and each other. One nice thing about starting off now with a pair of speakers like the 310a is that you can use those now, and later use them as monitors if you upgrade to a pair of larger main speakers. The RCFs, by the way, are comparable in quality to the QSC K series speakers or the powered versions of the Electro-Voice Live X series, but they simply sell for less. I use one 312a with a ZED10FX mixer for small acoustic gigs and it serves me very well. A great-sounding speaker for that price. The RCFs are scarce on the used market right now, but buying used can bring the QSCs or Electro-voices (or comparable/nearly comparable powered speakers from JBL or Yamaha or Mackie) down close to or below the RCF price. A used mixer in good shape can also be a real bargain.

 

The other option is to get a powered mixer like something in the Yamaha EMX series or one of the Soundcraft GigRac units or similar items made by Yorkville, Mackie, or Peavey, and the best-quality passive speakers you can afford. The main difference here is that the power amp is in the mixer, rather than the speakers, and that puts some limits on the feature set of the mixer. That may not matter to you now, but it may later. Good powered speakers also give you some advantages in terms of easy power-matching and sound processing, but for your purposes the subtle differences might not matter as much as other considerations (at least at this point). I use a Yorkville M810, a pair of Yorkville YX15 speakers (as mains), and the RCF 312a plus a pair of YX10s (as monitors) for my full, semi-acoustic band (guitars, voices, hand-drums, accordion, clarinet and acoustic bass) and it serves us very well for the sort of small-to-medium sized local gigs we play. But if I had the money, I would buy a larger, more flexible passive mixer, another RCF 312a (for the mains) and a pair of 310a's for monitoring. I should add that I don't much like the YX10s--they're all I've got right now, but they will be the first thing to go when I start to upgrade. I have no complaints about the YX15s. They're solid, reliable speakers for our modest, mostly acoustic purposes.

 

I bought the core of the Yorkville system (the M810 and the two YX15s) a few years back for about $1200, including speakers stands and cables, and a couple of decent Apex mics (one new, one used), 2 mic stands, and 2 mic cables. All used except for the one mic and the mic cables, but in very good shape and the powered mixer and the speakers still had a year left on their warranties. Got it all from a local sound system rental company that was cycling them out of rental usage. Good deals can be found on the used market--especially for powered mixer/passive speaker set-ups.

 

Louis

[John Bartus]

Some suggestions:

 

Speakers: Mackie Thump 15's -- powered, lightweight, and recently on sale as low as $299 each. The 12" Thump is even cheaper.

http://www.mackie.com/products/thump/

 

Mixer: Behringer XENYX X1222USB -- Four mono mic/line channels, loads of stereo channels and inputs, onboard FX and graphic EQ, more, and just $239.

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X1222USB.aspx

 

As always, YMMV.

[modulusman]

Some suggestions: Speakers: Mackie Thump 15's -- powered, lightweight, and recently on sale as low as $299 each. The 12" Thump is even cheaper. http://www.mackie.com/products/thump/ Mixer: Behringer XENYX X1222USB -- Four mono mic/line channels, loads of stereo channels and inputs, onboard FX and graphic EQ, more, and just $239. http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X1222USB.aspx As always, YMMV.

 

the biggest problem with the the thumps is according to their specs they don't get loud. A single mackie 450 would be as loud as a pair of thumps at least on paper. The problem with the mixer is it's a behringer.

[andy43]

I use an A&H Zed 10fx mixer and a single RCF 312a and it works great for me. Fairly popular setup because of how affordable it is, but the mixer and speaker are both top notch. Highly recommended.

[glepko]

 

I use an A&H Zed 10fx mixer and a single RCF 312a and it works great for me. Fairly popular setup because of how affordable it is, but the mixer and speaker are both top notch. Highly recommended.

 

 

the only post i read, and i'd suggest the same - or consider the m-audio gsr's for a huge savings (no experience with those yet but on order) we play through a single yorkville nx25p a lot or a single RCF front and RCF as monitor - they're the real deal