Members RoboPimp Posted June 5, 2005 Members Share Posted June 5, 2005 Is it possible in a small club for the physical kick drum sound and the kick coming from the subs to compete/cancel each other out? I swear this is what's happening with my system. When I play CDs on break the thump is phat, when the band starts playing the kick drum definitely seems less powerful and I'm sending a huge amount more power through the subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted June 5, 2005 Members Share Posted June 5, 2005 In some rooms I get the best kick with the kick channel normal, and in some rooms I get the best kick with the kick channel polarity reversed. The difference is not huge, but ...... If your mixer does not have a polarity switch, make an adapter cable with pins 2 and 3 reversed at one end. Make sure you have a high-pass filter on the subs XO out, so you are not wasting power on signals that the subs are not capable of reproducing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 5, 2005 Members Share Posted June 5, 2005 It would have to be an awfully small room, and you would have to be damn lucky to pick the perfect spot for everything to happen. You would probably have better luck winning a million dollars in a casino IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted June 6, 2005 Members Share Posted June 6, 2005 It may only make a difference where I happen to be sitting, but if something makes it sound better to me, and does not make it sound worse to everyone else, it makes for a more enjoyable evening of mixing. I doubt anyone else would notice the difference anyway, as it sometimes takes me a few A-Bs to decide which I prefer. Is there a spot in the room where it makes a BIG difference? Maybe. If I had a remote control polarity switch I could investigate :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 6, 2005 Members Share Posted June 6, 2005 It's as likely that there's places in the room where the exact opposite is true also. The average should net out to zero. That's why I have learned not to worry about things that yo do not have control of, nor work to solve a "problem" that has no solution that nets out to an average positive. If it gets better for one but worse for another, it's not a solution but an excercise in wanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratthedd Posted June 6, 2005 Members Share Posted June 6, 2005 RoboPimp, How are you micing the kick drum? Are you getting enough of a signal on the input to make the kick cut through the mix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted June 7, 2005 Author Members Share Posted June 7, 2005 Originally posted by ratthedd RoboPimp,How are you micing the kick drum? Are you getting enough of a signal on the input to make the kick cut through the mix? audix D6 right at the edge of the hole in the front of the kick drum, PFL on board is nice and hot, and as I said it seems as if my canned music has big thump but then it seems to drop off when the band is playing. I did notice that the head of his kick drum was so loose it was wrinkled around the edge. maybe that's not helping? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tom_s252 Posted June 7, 2005 Members Share Posted June 7, 2005 Originally posted by RoboPimp I did notice that the head of his kick drum was so loose it was wrinkled around the edge. maybe that's not helping? Definitely not helping! Depending on the attitude and knowledge level of the drummer, either ask him nicely or tighten it up for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 10, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted June 10, 2005 Originally posted by RoboPimp audix D6 right at the edge of the hole in the front of the kick drum, PFL on board is nice and hot, and as I said it seems as if my canned music has big thump but then it seems to drop off when the band is playing. I did notice that the head of his kick drum was so loose it was wrinkled around the edge. maybe that's not helping? Did you try moving it completely inside the drum? I would normally say that this isn't very probable, but perhaps the "outside" acoustic energy from the beater head is cancelling the energy generated inside the drum, and if there's a place I'd expect this to happen, it's at the edge of the hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted June 11, 2005 Members Share Posted June 11, 2005 Originally posted by RoboPimp Is it possible in a small club for the physical kick drum sound and the kick coming from the subs to compete/cancel each other out? I swear this is what's happening with my system. When I play CDs on break the thump is phat, when the band starts playing the kick drum definitely seems less powerful and I'm sending a huge amount more power through the subs. First we don't know what you use for subs and placement but the answer to your question is yes. Your subs can be "fighting" your bass drum as far as output. The bass drum is for all practicial purposes a sub with a large driver being driven by a foot. Just as you can improperly place sub drivers in relation to room walls and floors and each other you can place your subs in the wrong location to the bass drum to cause cancellation. This can also be happening to the subs in relation to the bass players rig on stage. This is very noticeable in small rooms as you describe. What you should do durning sound check is have the drummer hit the bass drum and slowly bring up the bass drum in the mains. The bass drum should slowly right away go up in level as the mains are brought up. If they are out you will hear a decrease in the bass drums output at first as they cancel then as the Main pa's output overruns the bass drums ability to cancel the level with start to climb again. As someone mentioned I would highly recommend a cable to invert pins 2 and 3 to check for this. Remember this has to do with the "Back wave" of the sub or its output as it wraps around the box polarity inverted reaching the "positive" waves from the bass drum meeting aprox half way. If they meet 180 degrees out there will be major cancellations going on in these small rooms that will effect the bass drums output through out the room. The same with the bass player on stage. You will not notice this just at your mix location but through out the smaller rooms. With boards with a phase-polarity switch you will hear a difference when switched one way or the other. If you don't it means they are aprox 90 degrees out of phase with each other and don't cancel or augment each other. Should you have a digital delay per channel you could add delay to the source and listen for the greatest cancelation then invert or return to normal the channel for the greatest summation of the two sources. This is not black magic just good engineering. With a loud drummer with a big drum in a small room this is not all that uncomon. Just the fact that you noticed it means you are listening closer than you think. I never worry about people who say something just isn't right. I worry about the people who say I don't hear it. Give it a try. In small rooms unless they are 90 degrees out you should hear a improvement if they are canceling right now. Dookietwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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