Members Axisplayer Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 It calls for EAW/Meyer or equivalent FOH capable of cruising at 125db at FOH (minimum 30 feet from center stage.) All tri-amped or better. 6 wedges (min 15"+2" horn,) drum box (triamp or better with 18" preferred bottom,) 2 side fills triamped, all capable of overcoming 119db stage volume. Separate lighting designer (with moving lights, crowd blinders, floor cans/underlighting, strobes, etc.) as well as separate FOH and monitor engineer. The guy expected a system for 200-300 dollars for the night......I told him no politely. Suggested he might be looking at a minimum of 10-15 times that amount. Mentioned that if he can find a system like that for what he wants to spend, give them my card and tell them I can keep them working regularly...... The kicker is that it is for a club that holds 200-300 punters on a good night. It is a nationally known touring band, but I don't think they understand what sort of place they are playing in....... Their rider says failure to meet specs is grounds to cancel performance. Glad I won't be the one they scream at when the system they want isn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 Originally posted by Axisplayer It calls for EAW/Meyer or equivalent FOH capable of cruising at 125db at FOH (minimum 30 feet from center stage.) All tri-amped or better. 6 wedges (min 15"+2" horn,) drum box (triamp or better with 18" preferred bottom,) 2 side fills triamped, all capable of overcoming 119db stage volume. So that Kustom PA won't quite cut it? Run, don't walk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 Welcome to the world or "ego-rock" fantasy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 $200-$300 a night get's you a 5KW system with some par tree's for lighting if you're lucky in my neck of the world; for monitors you get one or two splits with no more than 4 monitors. Hell that must be one hell of a stage to accomodate 6 monitors. The system spec'ed would be a couple grand I'm sure. Good call punting on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 waldorf, md! fabulous. locals are coming out of the woodwork. wow 300 bucks gets you that much up there? 30 minutes south, 300 bucks gets you a decent PA, maybe two moving lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 Originally posted by milesdf waldorf, md!fabulous. locals are coming out of the woodwork.wow 300 bucks gets you that much up there? 30 minutes south, 300 bucks gets you a decent PA, maybe two moving lights. You could have caught us at Cryer's in Leonardtown last Saturday or Legend's in Waldorf this Saturday. If you ever make it out, introduce yourself to me and I'll buy you a beer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 Originally posted by flanc You could have caught us at Cryer's in Leonardtown last Saturday or Legend's in Waldorf this Saturday. If you ever make it out, introduce yourself to me and I'll buy you a beer! Cool man, im up at school right now but ill check around next time im down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 $300 with delivery and pickup gets you a PA on a stick in boston, and maybe a couple 300w pars on sticks. What they describe is in the $2000-3000/day range here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 19, 2005 Share Posted October 19, 2005 Originally posted by flanc $200-$300 a night get's you a 5KW system with some par tree's for lighting if you're lucky in my neck of the world; for monitors you get one or two splits with no more than 4 monitors. Hell that must be one hell of a stage to accomodate 6 monitors. The system spec'ed would be a couple grand I'm sure. Good call punting on that one. A couple years ago I helped a (panic stricken) local gal hook up a "system" she had rented for one day from a local full serve music store. Application: background music and announcements at a wedding reception. This "system" was comprised of: 1) 2 ea. somewhat beat Shure SM-58's, plus:2) 2 ea. scruffy looking straight mic stands (with one good clip and one broken clip).3) 2 ea. functional mic cables4) 1 ea. Mackie powered mixer (with a few broken/missing knobs)5) 2 ea. 12 & 1 Mackie speakers on sticks (with smashed grills)6) 2 ea. dysfunctional speaker stands7) 2 ea. 30ft. zip-cord speaker cables Customer picks up the system, sets up the system, runs the system, returns the system, healthy damage deposit is returned after the gear is checked back. I believe the one day rental price was $250 plus salestax (salestax being another $25 or so). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATOMICDOG1 Posted October 19, 2005 Members Share Posted October 19, 2005 With my B system, I get $300 a night, more depending on distance... thats 2 MTL1x subs with two JBL 4732a's, an A&H 24 channel GL2200, and 4 monitor mixes (mackie 16 channel for mons), plus two par 4x par 56 trees. Qsc amps all the way around. Its a decent bar system. What that rider is talking about would be around $2.5k to $3k around here- not including the lights. Assuming that they also spec'ed a pair of 40 channel VCA consoles and specific effects units (and I bet they did ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by ATOMICDOG1 What that rider is talking about would be around $2.5k to $3k around here- not including the lights. Assuming that they also spec'ed a pair of 40 channel VCA consoles and specific effects units (and I bet they did ) And a slew of mics (UHF wireless), DI boxes, backline, pool table & Jacuzzi, supplied drum & guitar & Hammond organ techs, 10 cases of imported beverages, a couple buckets of Popeye's fried chicken (white meat only, deskinned and deboned), 3 limos, accommodations for 40 at a first class hotel, dancing girls, a 5 gal bucket of "no brown" peanut M&M's, and complimentary tickets at the 50yd. line for the Superbowl... no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by Axisplayer It calls for EAW/Meyer or equivalent FOH capable of cruising at 125db at FOH (minimum 30 feet from center stage.) You know: I've always wondered about the legal implications of this... where the band management is on-record requiring a system capable of operating at levels that's well know to cause instant and permanent hearing loss? And... apparently intent on fully utilizing said specified system to it's full potential (how could you draw any other conclusion?) Premeditated intent to cause harm (malice aforethought). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by Audiopile You know: I've always wondered about the legal implications of this... where the band management is on-record requiring a system capable of operating at levels that's well know to cause instant and permanent hearing loss? And... apparently intent on fully utilizing said specified system to it's full potential (how could you draw any other conclusion?) Premeditated intent to cause harm (malice aforethought). nah, he can always say that he hasnt planned to use the system this loud, and if he doesnt hurt anyone he wont be challenged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by ATOMICDOG1 With my B system, I get $300 a night, more depending on distance... thats 2 MTL1x subs with two JBL 4732a's, an A&H 24 channel GL2200, and 4 monitor mixes (mackie 16 channel for mons), plus two par 4x par 56 trees. Qsc amps all the way around. Its a decent bar system. Man are you screwing yourself. Come to Boston, I'll keep you busy 7 nights a week a that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members B. Adams Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by where02190 Man are you screwing yourself. Come to Boston, I'll keep you busy 7 nights a week a that price. You're right, but the midwest is a much different market than Boston. Just look at the cost of housing here versus there... And if he was charging much more than that, he'd be working a lot less often. But as for the original post, I'm sure there's a contact number on the rider. Give the guy a call and tell him what the place is like, what you've got, and see if it'll work. The worst that happens is that it doesn't, and then you're still not out anything but a phone call and a few minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by B. Adams But as for the original post, I'm sure there's a contact number on the rider. Give the guy a call and tell him what the place is like, what you've got, and see if it'll work. The worst that happens is that it doesn't, and then you're still not out anything but a phone call and a few minutes. You bet. Either they're gonna be workable, or smoking good stuff. FWIW: I've made of few calls of this nature where the tour manager said "you have the scaled down rider". Of-course, that's when I took the hint that this was outta my league and suggested they "have a nice day" (clunk). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Damn, I can see aiming high for a PA rider but there's no way they'll get close to that. A couple grand would get ya there in seattle I bet. Seattle is a weird place though since not many bands come thru. I charge about 300 a night and thats some older EV tops, dual 18 subs, 4-6 wedges on 4 mixes, a mackie 32-4 or Yamaha 01V (my descretion). For a little more you get some lights. p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by Audiopile You know: I've always wondered about the legal implications of this... where the band management is on-record requiring a system capable of operating at levels that's well know to cause instant and permanent hearing loss? And... apparently intent on fully utilizing said specified system to it's full potential (how could you draw any other conclusion?) Premeditated intent to cause harm (malice aforethought). I imagine that IF anybody's hearing was damaged, and they were able to get ahold of the rider, they'd have a slam-dunk case. Unfortunately, there's a fairly wide gulf between a.) lawyersb.) people who know what "125db" meansc.) fans who are used to going to concerts and coming home with ringing ears.and d.) a group of people on a jury who would find in favor of somebody who "knowingly went to a concert with loud music". Still, the evidence is clear cut, IMHO. The hard part would be actually proving that the PA actually hit/crossed the 125db threshold where the person was standing during the show. The OTHER hard part would be finding a "fan" who would actually want to sue their favorite band. Hell, most fans would probably settle for some free CD's and a 'meet and greet' with their rock heroes. They can't regulate that the specs the companies promote are even correct in many cases, right? "The system specs out at 125db, but we all know that the number is inflated..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 20, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted October 20, 2005 Just because the rider calls for a system capable of 125dB does not imply that the band intends to use it to capacity. If this were true, every car manufacturer would be sued on a daily basis from crash survivors....."well the speedometer reads to 150mph, and the engine has 250HP....." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by Craigv Just because the rider calls for a system capable of 125dB does not imply that the band intends to use it to capacity. If this were true, every car manufacturer would be sued on a daily basis from crash survivors....."well the speedometer reads to 150mph, and the engine has 250HP....." Not necessarily. If the rider called for a dozen live hand grenades and then somebody actually set one off in the audience and hurt somebody, the rider would be evidence that the grenades were supposed to be there and the "accident" defense wouldn't hold up as well. By saying that they "need" 125db capability specifically, if somebody is injured, they could use that in a suit against the defendant. While it wouldn't "prove" that the PA actually ever got above 125db, it would force the question as to why the promoter specifically requested gear that posed a hazard. If they, on the other hand, specified that the PA needed to go to 115db, they'd be on pretty firm ground because they could more easily claim that the time exposure wasn't great enough to cause a problem. With 125db being widely touted as causing "immediate damage", even an accidental squeal of feedback at that level puts people in charge of the event at serious risk from a liability standpoint. The car analogy is different. You can buy/purchase/use all kinds of dangerous things...cars, guns, knives, power tools...whatever. If you hurt yourself (and as long as the hazards of the item in question are specified, i.e. warning tags, etc.) then you can't sue the manufacturer. You CAN go ahead and try to sue yourself, but that's obviously not practical. If you hurt somebody ELSE with this stuff, however, then you CAN be sued. So if you run somebody over because you were doing 130 in a school zone, the odds are pretty good that the excessive speed involved will only make your punishment worse and open you up to civil lawsuits. Same thing with a PA system. Unless you warn people that there's a potential that 125db noise will be thrown at them, and that they WILL suffer hearing damage from it, and then have them waive their rights to sue you, theoretically the COULD sue you if they wanted and recover damages. It's no different than if the roof fell in on the venue. The venue didn't PLAN to have the roof collapse, but if it does it's not an expected part of what the patrons signed up for. Same thing with going deaf at a concert. BTW, semi-related story: in regard to suing car makers for making cars that go fast, I sat on a jury about a year ago in a civil case where a landscaper had rented a stump grinder and had accidentally "stump grinded" his leg off. He was trying to sue the manufacturer and the rental company. We found that the guy screwed up and that the machine...as dangerous as it was...performed within the posted specifications. So the guy got nothing (despite some of the elderly jurors trying to get him some sympathy cash). This guy knew the risks (there was signage all over the machine telling him to stay clear of the blades) and he screwed up. If he had ground up somebody else, then he could have been sued for neglegence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted October 20, 2005 Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by Old Steve By saying that they "need" 125db capability specifically, if somebody is injured, they could use that in a suit against the defendant. While it wouldn't "prove" that the PA actually ever got above 125db, it would force the question as to why the promoter specifically requested gear that posed a hazard. If they, on the other hand, specified that the PA needed to go to 115db, they'd be on pretty firm ground because they could more easily claim that the time exposure wasn't great enough to cause a problem. With 125db being widely touted as causing "immediate damage", even an accidental squeal of feedback at that level puts people in charge of the event at serious risk from a liability standpoint. That's my take on the situation. It's my opinion that calling for (in writing) 125dB cruise capability at the mix position is needlessly hanging your ass way out over the edge. I'd be hesitant to be a party (enabler) to something like this that has the proven potential to cause some serious damage. Kids screwing around and making mistakes is one thing. A professional being a party to reckless behavior is not defensible. I dunno.... it's one of those things to ponder... just a coffee shop discussion subject that I've wondered what other folks think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 20, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 I have to say that the discussion here has been a lot to ponder. The promoter wrote back (I have been dealing with him and not the band so far...) and said the rider is for their BIG shows and that he wanted me to do the show anyway. He proposed, as was mentioned here, that I write back a counter offer of what I have for them. Even if they accepted it, the original rider makes me feel like I am in for a night of trouble since my gear is FAR from what they are used to. The band has toured Europe, played the Garden a few times, and has roots from some big names in punk rock. This is not the league my system was intended for since I am primarily a local bar type provider. (GL2200/32 ; SR4733X over LS808 per side ; RMX amps @ 7k FOH, 2k mons ; 8 cans in front and a truss of 8 cans in back ; MPro 212 monitors.....you get the picture.) I have visions of my gear laying in a burning pile at the end of the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members qtuner Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 I'd also bet the reason that the promoter wants you, is that you're the only one that showed interest, and everyone else said no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 20, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 I didn't show any interest. He called me, and asked if I was free for a date, and I said yes. He asked what I charge and I told him. He showed me the rider and I said no...... It might be price related, but I am competitive in this area so I doubt it. I have worked for him before though so it might be familiarity..... I am not rushing to write him a counteroffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATOMICDOG1 Posted October 20, 2005 Members Share Posted October 20, 2005 Originally posted by where02190 Man are you screwing yourself. Come to Boston, I'll keep you busy 7 nights a week a that price. Lol, thats just the starting rate... only available at a club 3 blocks from my shop. The owners a friend of mine, he let's me keep the system set up there most of the summer since we do most of the shows there. It really helps when you don't have to transport the system and set up and tear down every night. Most of the time its $450 to $600 depending on who its for and where I have to bring it and whether I'm running it or paying someone to run it. My A system is triple that one with better consoles and monitors. That one goes out for $1k to $1200 on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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