Members GZsound Posted March 17, 2007 Members Share Posted March 17, 2007 Dave, your experience is different than mine, and if there is a problem for a customer it becomes my problem too. Buying a product for yourself is one thing, but selling to a customer that you must also service and maintain under an installation warranty is an entirely different matter. You make another good point. I have six Behringer PMH 2000 powered PA system in permanent install locations now that have been in place for over a year without failure or complaint. To each his own.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted March 17, 2007 Members Share Posted March 17, 2007 I've said this before, but when one of my clients asks me what kind of gear I use and why I choose it over other gear, my reply is usually ''Because of the build and sound quality and because of the company's record of producing reliable equipment.'' I know this makes my clients feel better about choosing me as their DJ for their special occasion, where everything has to go right. If I owned a Behringer or Nady or Pyramid etc... type system, my answer of ''Because it was the cheapest thing in the music store'' would probably not have the same effect.... If your client is paying you good money for your services, I believe the best investment you can make in your business is to provide your clients with the most reliable, best sounding equipment you can afford. A satisfied client will quite often be a repeat client. When my competition comes to see me (which happens often enough since many places I play in have more than one hall/room), and they see my Yorkville, Yamaha and Peavey equipment, and get to hear the sound of my rig, they know I am serious about providing a quality service that undeniably sounds better than their (downloaded) MP3s playing on their laptops connected to their Pyramid mixer sending a distorted and already over compressed (low MP3 quality) signal to their ''never in a million years'' 1000 watt Pyle Pro amplifier driving some inefficient floor standing Gemini double 15s with 7 piezo tweeters. Wow. That was one long sentence.... Al - Party-Time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 17, 2007 Members Share Posted March 17, 2007 And overseas production is not a morality issue, but rather the way our products and ideas have been "bootlegged" and are now being manufactured overseas. That was the point. It is standard business practice and as I said, if it bothers you, then use the same standards with everything you buy, don't just cherry pick a company to dislike. I agree with your assement of the FCC violations, but the intellectual property protection laws are broken on a daily basis by the types of products and countries I mentioned...which was why I mentioned them. When you have had intellectual property "bootlegged", or stolen, you might have a different opinion. I know that I have a different opinion than you do on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted March 17, 2007 Members Share Posted March 17, 2007 to be perfectly fair, over the years i have seen a gl2400 go poof in the middle of a show, and also a soundcraft medium size desk. both shows ended at that point. and my stupid 1604vlz has had the occasional channel go poof once or twice. currently my gl2200 is acting up a little with channel 24 and the left side led meters. a wise mechanic said to me once, "ford, chevy, dodge, they all break". still, i wouldnt buy a beartrainer. yeek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 17, 2007 Members Share Posted March 17, 2007 Sure everything CAN break, but the statistics will give you a good indication of how OFTEN it would be likely to break. Different brands and model lines have different statistical MTBF's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted March 17, 2007 Members Share Posted March 17, 2007 you know, i gotta say (flame suit on) the one company i have had the least amount of experience with it not functioning is........peavey. i tend to get in arguements about this locally with the boys but i have really only seen one catastrophic peavey failure, and that one warned the user for two years before it literally caught on fire. an old school (cs400 maybe?) had a cooling fan die in it and ran hot as blazes for two years. one day it let the smoke out. peavey fixed it and sent it back for $90. amazing. it still works today. that and i pulled my peavey guitar amp out of 9 feet of water and it still works, speaker too. i cant figgure that out. (a lot of other stuff didnt make it, but the peavey works as good as when i bought it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 Don't listen to the gear snobs! So your total post of TWO qualifies you as an expert...? The trollmeter is PEGGED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TuMadre Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 So your total post of TWO qualifies you as an expert...? So...Real world experience means nothing on these boards? Only post count qualifies one as an expert? yea...OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 So...Real world experience means nothing on these boards? Only post count qualifies one as an expert? yea...OK Surely you'll understand the skepticism of someone who appears out of (seemingly) nowhere with an opinion the exact opposite of the majority of the thread, with reasons to quantify it being such things as "I'm doing it because everyone else says not to!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarharv52 Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 So...Real world experience means nothing on these boards? Only post count qualifies one as an expert? yea...OK Real experience does count.I am still a noob around here with 30 years stage and PA experience.I now know my technical knowledge was pretty low just like my budget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gruvjack Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 Another Behringer thread that's going in the same direction as the others (surprise, surprise). For the record, I went through 3 Behringer mixers within 5 years. Pots went bad, buttons went kaput, and my faith in the brand went the way of the dodo. Never again. That's my personal experience with their track record. I bought a Soundcraft and have not looked back. I've been on more arguments about Behringer than I care to admit, the latest one being with a friend that swears that his used Composer is just as good as any DBX (and justifiably a lot cheaper). He used it to record a few demo tracks with his band and played at SXSW recently. To the OP, I say to you: do what you must and good luck. To the Behringer advocates: go buy Lotto tickets; you're all on a damn good streak to not have your gear fail miserably yet. To all, let's call it a day and move on. V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GZsound Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 Oh, but recommending a product with a mere 1 year warranty is a better recommendation? Than buying used? You betcha.. I have purchased used gear that appeared to be in fine working condition until I got it in the studio and could carefully appraise it.. Guess what? I wasted my money and no recourse. A new piece of gear with a one year warranty trumps a used POS with no warranty all day long. But feel free to buy those lotto tickets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ Swydez Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 Than buying used? You betcha.. I have purchased used gear that appeared to be in fine working condition until I got it in the studio and could carefully appraise it.. Guess what? I wasted my money and no recourse. A new piece of gear with a one year warranty trumps a used POS with no warranty all day long. But feel free to buy those lotto tickets. But why not buy (or suggest) a piece of equipment that has a 3-6 year or more warranty on it? That would be smarter than buying a product with a mere 1 year warranty on it... I know that is a key factor in deciding which gear I buy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 18, 2007 Members Share Posted March 18, 2007 Than buying used? You betcha.. I have purchased used gear that appeared to be in fine working condition until I got it in the studio and could carefully appraise it.. Guess what? I wasted my money and no recourse. A new piece of gear with a one year warranty trumps a used POS with no warranty all day long. But feel free to buy those lotto tickets. Who in their right mind would buy a used POS? I buy and sell used equipment all the time, in fact it's part of my business. IF you consistently buy used gear that's got problems, then perhaps you should reconsider buying used gear. BUT, used gear can be an excellent value and all the used gear I sell comes with a warranty that ranges from 90 days to as much as 2x the manufacturer's original warranty so the purchaser definately has recourse and it's local and our repair shop is in-house. I don't generally sell used Behringer though, too many problems new for me to have the confidence to take that risk on myself selling it used. There are other brands that I don't buy or sell used also, it's not the brand but my track record with those brands in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted March 19, 2007 Members Share Posted March 19, 2007 As in most areas of commerce, the well-informed buyer has an opportunity to buy used "gems" for a real value in the live-audio world. There are a number of ways you can mitigate the risk of buying a clunker. One way is to have first hand expertise and skill. Another is to have an honest broker, such as Agedhorse suggests, work in the middle to take some of the profit in return for a warranty. In any event, I think buying a used POS...is never, buy definition, a good idea. The Behringer debate will rage on in future threads in this and other forums I am sure. My dad worked in the trades as union electrician and he was very particular about his tools. When it came to his tools, he used to always recite a quote that has stuck with me and is particularly relevant to this debate in my opinion: "The bitter taste of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten". With that said, I freely admit to owning a few pieces of Behringer gear and I've had mixed experiences. I have a meaurement mic that has worked just fine for the few times that I've called on it. I have a mixer stays in my office/Den and it has had a number of quality problems (phantom power stopped working, on channel is dead) but it is still fine for what I ask of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GZsound Posted March 19, 2007 Members Share Posted March 19, 2007 Who in their right mind would buy a used POS? I buy and sell used equipment all the time, in fact it's part of my business. IF you consistently buy used gear that's got problems, then perhaps you should reconsider buying used gear. BUT, used gear can be an excellent value and all the used gear I sell comes with a warranty that ranges from 90 days to as much as 2x the manufacturer's original warranty so the purchaser definately has recourse and it's local and our repair shop is in-house. I don't generally sell used Behringer though, too many problems new for me to have the confidence to take that risk on myself selling it used. There are other brands that I don't buy or sell used also, it's not the brand but my track record with those brands in general. I should buy my used stuff from you.. Most of the used stuff on ebay doesn't have any warranty. And I haven't been burned a lot because I normally buy new equipment with a full warranty and avoid used gear whenever possible. If I buy used, I use Craigslist which allows me to fully check out the equipment in person before I hand over my cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 19, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 I was giving my opinion on posts other than yours specifically. However, you did mention reviews of Behringer and so I mentioned reviews of Mackie... You know, apples and apples. My point was that there are reviews of just about every piece of gear and only very few get excellent reviews repeatedly. You must take into consideration the sheer number of products sold with any review. And overseas production is not a morality issue, but rather the way our products and ideas have been "bootlegged" and are now being manufactured overseas. That was the point. It is standard business practice and as I said, if it bothers you, then use the same standards with everything you buy, don't just cherry pick a company to dislike. I agree with your assement of the FCC violations, but the intellectual property protection laws are broken on a daily basis by the types of products and countries I mentioned...which was why I mentioned them. Just look how many Chinese microphones there are out there. Many built by the same company in China. Simply taking a design from somebody and making a million copies of it. And yet, I hear no anti Nady or any other company rhetoric on these forums. Just all Behringer, all the time. That's all. Let's get the Nady comment out of the way. I've repeatedly advised people to stay away from "Nady, Kustom and Behringer". Feel free to go back and look through the threads to see this. So it's not "all Behringer, and the time". But you don't see a monthly Nady discussion the way we see the Behringer threads, for one reason: Nobody ever fights the Nady issue. Mention Behringer, or for that matter, Carvin in a negative way and you'll get a {censored}storm of arguments from supporters. These threads go 4 or more pages every time. So they stand out. Regarding overseas production and intellectual property; Country of manufacture has nothing whatsoever to do with whether the device was made legally or is a copy. Most if not all major suppliers of SR gear have a Chinese presence. Can you provide info or evidence that I'm "cherry-picking" a company to "dislike"? There are plenty of products I don't like. Were you around for the BOSE PAS discussion? Or my bitch-and-moan with dboomer about MI-grade mixers? How about my experience renting Kustom wedges? The Bill Fitmaurice speaker discussions typically go 10+ pages, and I have little good to say about most of what goes on there. Bottom line for me is that Behringer offers me nothing...I don't like how they do business, and I don't like most of their products. Sorry if that's not in agreement with your opinion, but I don't think I've posted anything that I can't back with reasonable evidence supporting my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 19, 2007 Members Share Posted March 19, 2007 If I buy used, I use Craigslist which allows me to fully check out the equipment in person before I hand over my cash. It's always a good idea to check the used equipment out. There are lots of folks who sell used gear with recourse and/or warranty. Of course you may not get the "killer deal" on a POS though. There are plenty of E-Bay transactions on "new" geat that isn't quite new, or carries no warranty, which you may not find out until you need to claim a warranty repair only to fnd out it was not sold through an authorized channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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