to compress or not to compress?

[alekke]

Hi all!

I read a little something about this from the search, but I still want your opinion about this.

 

I play guitar and lead vocals in my death/thrash band (see signature for info - we are serious band)

I have old peavey PA-400 powermixer and celestion CR 2x250W speakers.

In a few days I'm gonna buy new sennheiser E835, and I was thinking of buying some compressor to even my vocals volumes (because I play and "sing", and the genre that we are in) and protect the speakers.

 

As I dont know much about compressors, and dont want to spend fortune on it I lay my eye on this: MINICOM COM800

http://www.behringer.com/COM800/index.cfm?lang=ENG

 

First: tell me something about the idea of buying compressor for vocals. Is it somethig that is a must for me?

Second: any experience on the MINICOM?

[tlbonehead]

Definitely not a plus. Save for some decent PA gear and work on your singing/mic technique.

[Sonic Violence]

don't know that particular unit, but I would venture to guess adding a compressor may be more trouble than its worth...and you you dont need a compressor to protect your speakers.

 

That being said, I am taking a leap here and thinking the problem you may be having is vocal passages that are more 'singing' vs. passages that are more 'scream'? If it is, I have sometimes had sucess using a compressor ...but, I would also say an upgrade with your pa might be a way better investment in the long run.

 

What is the actual problem you are having in regards to the vocals? maybe a compressor is not what you need first...

[alekke]

I'll listen to you, and pass by the MINICOM.

 

But I thought that compressor will help me since I play the guitar and sing and dont have the abillity to controll the mic with my hand plus, I practically scream in the mic so I don't want unnecessary distortion and clipping. It must be equal volume all the time.

[alekke]

don't know that particular unit, but I would venture to guess adding a compressor may be more trouble than its worth...and you you dont need a compressor to protect your speakers. That being said, I am taking a leap here and thinking the problem you may be having is vocal passages that are more 'singing' vs. passages that are more 'scream'? If it is, I have sometimes had sucess using a compressor ... but , I would also say an upgrade with your pa might be a way better investment in the long run. What is the actual problem you are having in regards to the vocals? maybe a compressor is not what you need first...

 

Yes, it is sreaming, not singing.

 

It's not much of a problem, it's more like somethin I would like.

I would like that there is no clipping heard when I yell, and that there are no drastic volume changes when I go too close or far away to the mic.

 

allthough, compressor is a cheaper solution, what best buy powermixer would you recommend?

[tlbonehead]

 

I'll listen to you, and pass by the MINICOM. But I thought that compressor will help me since I play the guitar and sing and dont have the abillity to controll the mic with my hand plus, I practically scream in the mic so I don't want unnecessary distortion and clipping. It must be equal volume all the time.

 

Unless you have a really garbage mic you shouldn't be getting any clipping/overload there. If you are getting distortion/clipping, you are either clipping the mic input/preamp, or the overall system. Maybe it just ibn't loud enough for you? As for the rest, why would you have to "control the mic with your hand"? That makes no sense. You can move your mouth closer to/farther from the mic while you play guitar, and you can also vary your singing/screaming volume to get the proper volume. That's all part of the art of singing in a live setting using a mic/sound system. You certainly don't want to skip that learning process.

[alekke]

Yeah, but I am mooving all the time and must look at the guitar often not to make faults and mic is just standing still.

It would help a lot having that little Britney Spears mic that goes around the head, but that would look silly in a death metal band.

Other than that I'm cool with else.

 

About the clipping, yeah, maybe the powermixer is too weak, cause speakers are on 8ohm and mixer has 2ohm paralell outs.

Mic I have is beta58 (borrowed - but I'm buying sennheiser 835 next week)

[agedhorse]

That's nowhere near enough PA for the type of music you are doing IMO. If you need that kind of volume and you are clipping the mixer-amp's power amp, you need more PA (both amps and speakers) first. Save your money and upgrade THEN consider a compressor once you work a little on your technique with the new system.

[tlbonehead]

Yeah, but I am mooving all the time and must look at the guitar often not to make faults and mic is just standing still. It would help a lot having that little Britney Spears mic that goes around the head, but that would look silly in a death metal band. Other than that I'm cool with else. About the clipping, yeah, maybe the powermixer is too weak, cause speakers are on 8ohm and mixer has 2ohm paralell outs. Mic I have is beta58 (borrowed - but I'm buying sennheiser 835 next week)

Well, you just need to practice. I've played guitar and sang all my life. And others certainly make it work fine. Short-cuts usually end up short on results, especially in this case. It doesn't make sense to try and get a device that makes up for someone not paying attention to where they are situated with the mic.

[alcohol]

I must say that Death Metal sung in the Croatian language sounds like even more Death Metallic than sung in English.

[oscarzacosta]

I do a lot of PA work and I consider a compressor key piece, both for protecting the system (don't let anybody kid you. it can save your gear) and for vocal treatment although you'd be better off inserting the compressor on the individual mic channel.

 

 

personally I think a good cheap compressor is the dbx266.

 

oh and for day to day, quick operation, OverEasy is key.

[agedhorse]

Look at the OP's situation... a compressor is not an appropriate solution to HIS problem.

[oscarzacosta]

 

Look at the OP's situation... a compressor is not an appropriate solution to HIS problem.

 

 

 

 

"protect the speakers."

 

right there its certainly appropriate to his problem. anybody running a PA the way he describes needs a clamp on the system in case something unexpected happens.

 

and while the rest of what he is trying to do is a little fuzzy, a compressor certainly is something that would help, although not solve, his particular issue.

[alekke]

OK! Now I am in even bigger dilema!

Truth is that I need to practice, and my system is not quite professionall.

Before few last posts I thought I am gonna buy sennheiser and that is it!

 

It is hard to be a guitarist and a singer with 800$ salary and maintain on a professionall level. All that equipment ... and I just bought those godamn speakers and didn't consider of changing powermixer for a while.

 

sorry on my english expression, allthought I'm a croat so I need to ask few questions:

 

@ alcohol I must say that Death Metal sung in the Croatian language sounds like even more Death Metallic than sung in English.

What croatian metal did you hear? We sing on english - sounds more natural

 

@ oscarzacosta oh and for day to day, quick operation, OverEasy is key.

OverEasy, is that some peace of gear?

I was allways more in a guitar world than in a PA, so I'm not much into compressors and stuff like that.

(edit: just saw that OverEasy is a button on a dbx 266, and another expensive toy)

 

Lets say that I dont have money for the whole system. I'm buying new mic now, and if accedently I loose current powermixer, what would you reccomend?

 

And for me being restless by the mic, compressor yet is not the solution?

Or maybe it is?

[moody]

 

"protect the speakers." right there its certainly appropriate to his problem. anybody running a PA the way he describes needs a clamp on the system in case something unexpected happens. and while the rest of what he is trying to do is a little fuzzy, a compressor certainly is something that would help, although not solve, his particular issue.

 

 

As someone who runs a pretty small PA and owns a compressor. If you don't know how to do it you can do a lot worse with a compressor than without. I personally tried for a little while but have gone back to leaving it out until I can get somebody to train me or something - I just can't get a better sound with it (dbx 166xl).

[alekke]

It has 4 knobs per channel, how hard can it be? Also, I'm a very quick learner! All I need is one day googling to figure the basics. Everithing else depens on the equipment.

 

I stress here again that I dont sing, I scream!

 

Anyway, if compressor would not work for my "singing", I could use it for guitar, no? So it's not the waste of money.

 

If that behringer up there is crap, it leaves me dbx 266 or alesis 3630.

[oscarzacosta]

its often hard to really appreciate the difference compressors make at first but they do indeed, down deep, do have an effect and they have been in use for a long time precisely because of that effect.

 

a quick rule of thumb in my world (and there are a lot of worlds out there) is to set the ratio to 3:1 and the threshold so that the orange light (overeasy light) is lit occasionally. not exactly a scientific approach but it will help get more power out of your PA by preventing spiking and help smooth your vocal.

 

of course a compressor inserted on a single channel is easier to work with for mic issues but one on the output set up as described will help and be fairly easy to run.

 

only way to learn to use the gear is to turn it on and turn it up. you'll get it eventually. if idiots like me can run them you certainly can.

[tlbonehead]

its often hard to really appreciate the difference compressors make at first but they do indeed, down deep, do have an effect and they have been in use for a long time precisely because of that effect. a quick rule of thumb in my world (and there are a lot of worlds out there) is to set the ratio to 3:1 and the threshold so that the orange light (overeasy light) is lit occasionally. not exactly a scientific approach but it will help get more power out of your PA by preventing spiking and help smooth your vocal. of course a compressor inserted on a single channel is easier to work with for mic issues but one on the output set up as described will help and be fairly easy to run. only way to learn to use the gear is to turn it on and turn it up. you'll get it eventually. if idiots like me can run them you certainly can.

NTL, the OP has a 30+ year old mixer head (I think its that old) and a pair of very budget speakers, has understandably poor sound, and you are recommending a comp in this situation. Seems way down the list on things that would make the most difference.

[oscarzacosta]

well, the guys question was specific to purchasing a compressor. I must admit how to get a compressor in line with that Peavey might be an issue but as I remember those things there is a main insert somewhere.

 

indeed a better PA would help but being who he is and where he is I'm not sure thats an option, not to mention I applaud his attempt to learn more about the science of what hes doing rather than go for the "more PA" option.

 

it has been my observation thru the years that a compressor can do more noticeable good to a cheap system than an expensive one.

[alekke]

Speakers are not that bad. Good celestions. Can be driven very loud.

I think that powermixer is what's causin the clipping problem because of it's 2ohm outputs.

 

"being who he is and where he is I'm not sure thats an option" I'm not like in Asadabad or something! We have perfectly normal offer like you guys!

my town! I love my town!

 

 

I just dont want to spend huge amount of money on something like that. I have to eat. I'm just interested in a best option for a lowest cost.

 

So, the best option would be to leave the compressor and wait for a 6-7 months and buy new powermixer? Would behringer do? Alesis?

[Sonic Violence]

oscarzacosta you're right. it was in regards to a compressor...but, it was "to compress or not to." Thats why he got the replys he did.

 

 

Alekke, I hear you on the money thing. It happens to about everybody at one time or another.

 

I am not familar w/ the speaker line, but I have seen those old pa heads, tho not in quite awhile.

 

I think one of the earlier posts hit the nail on the head...unless there is something wrong w/ the mic, you are most probably clipping the inputs or the system. A very simple way to look at it might be like this: If it's distorted/clipped when you sing, turn down the input gain (can you on those old heads?). If it's then too quiet, or it still clips and distorts, you probably dont have enough PA.... and no effect unit of any kind will be of much help.

 

I think you are approaching it right by buying a good mic...the next step I would suggest is looking at a new (or used?) PA head....Save the money you would use to buy a compressor and put it to saving for that. If your old head still works ok, you can always try and sell that too. You might be able to save by looking at other mics than the E835. Every little bit would count.

 

Good luck.

[oscarzacosta]

"oscarzacosta you're right. it was in regards to a compressor...but, it was "to compress or not to." Thats why he got the replys he did."

 

 

well actually I thought it was "to compress or not to compress" not "compress or buy a new PA" but I get your point. personally I think that if hes going to buy new PA gear getting a new power amp might help his ohmage issues and save him some money at the same allowing for expansion in the speaker world.

[agedhorse]

The problem with your clipping has nothing to do with the 2 ohm output, it has to do with the powered mixer being very low power... it's roughly delivering to each speaker 125 watts. The mixer uses the "PA-400" power amp module, a standard power amp that was used in many products, including the bass amp products.

 

A compressor set to 3:1 ratio and easy over threshold detector would need to be set to start compressing at roughly 50-75 watts to provide 6dB(V) compression before clipping. While this will help perceived loudness a litytle bit, I still think waiting to spend hard earned money on a better (much larger) powered mixer or seperate power amp and mixer would be a better solution. Until then, turn down and practice within the limits of the gear you have.

 

Informationally, in this situation IF a compressor was to be used to "Maximum" benefit, something like 6:1 - 10:1 ratio and a threshold setting that provided maybe 12dB of gain reduction before the amp clip/limit point was reached would be more appropriate, but it's still like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

[alekke]

Manual says load impedance 8 ohm: output at 1%THD 80W, at 5% 95W. More impedance, less power - it is connected, right?

heres the manual http://www.peavey.com/media/pdf/manuals/thepa400.pdf

 

Curently I use friends Beta 58, and it clips, so it's a {censored}ty powermixer. It's not hard clipping but still getting on my nerves.

I'll try to use lower input volume and more master. Now I my input volume is at 12 o'clock, and master at 1 - 1 and a half o'clock.

 

edit: can clipping harm my speakers?

 

You say to buy something else rather than E835? I decided on it cause I read that they are better than SM58 and they are cheaper. OK, new help needed!

[alekke]

 

"oscarzacosta you're right. it was in regards to a compressor...but, it was "to compress or not to." Thats why he got the replys he did." well actually I thought it was "to compress or not to compress" not "compress or buy a new PA" but I get your point. personally I think that if hes going to buy new PA gear getting a new power amp might help his ohmage issues and save him some money at the same allowing for expansion in the speaker world.

 

 

this seems like a good idea!! Buying a second hand poweramp and combine it with peavey untill I save money for a real mixer.

Peavey has a lot of outs and returns. Some of them could be used to combine it with extra poweramp to increase the power section!

Hell, I use Crate SPA-200 for my guitar rig (one from the avatar), and I was going to buy new tube poweramp anyway, so I could use Crate for te PA for start - to see how will it work!