CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 31, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 Some of Fords cars are pretty good, they're called mazdas.As to the biased source, If you've spent that much time, money and effort making something that is the equivelent of something already available then of course you are going to justify it to yourself and others. I will believe the claims when I see and hear the items in a double blind test with all other factors being equal.And personally, I have a lot less time than money most of the time anyway. There's history here that you may not know about. I built a pair of BF's Tuba 24's. Andy supplied the drivers, another forumite (damn I wish I could remember his name) paid for the plans, and I provided wood, miscellany and labor. I built them to the spec, A/B'd them as a 40hm pair against the JBL SRX 18's BF claimed they'd kick ass against, and it was a joke. Of course, I was accused of not building them well enough, that the chamber must be leaking air, but I installed a hose bib onto the lid and pumped the chamber to 1.5psi and it held for an hour. I even had to lacquer the dust covers on the drivers to seal them since they were mesh. Then the accusation turned to my assembly method....I rabbet and dado my cabinets, instead of using squarecuts on angled joints and filling the resulting gaps with polyurethane adhesive which is the hack method promoted by BF. Somehow this was deemed inferior and prone to leakage. Sorry, but I knew what I was building and made certain the joints were very tight, nailed and completely glue-filled. There are no leaks. The cabinet worked fine for what it is....a very old horn-loaded design that's extremely labor intensive and results in a peaky subwoofer. But you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and execting the same performance of a 600w 18" cabinet from a 200w 10" cabinet is ludicrous. So hopefully you can see why I'm a tad more than just skeptical of any claims from the BF crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members preacherman672 Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 There's history here that you may not know about. I built a pair of BF's Tuba 24's. Andy supplied the drivers, another forumite (damn I wish I could remember his name) paid for the plans, and I provided wood, miscellany and labor.I built them to the spec, A/B'd them as a 40hm pair against the JBL SRX 18's BF claimed they'd kick ass against, and it was a joke. Of course, I was accused of not building them well enough, that the chamber must be leaking air, but I installed a hose bib onto the lid and pumped the chamber to 1.5psi and it held for an hour. I even had to lacquer the dust covers on the drivers to seal them since they were mesh. Then the accusation turned to my assembly method....I rabbet and dado my cabinets, instead of using squarecuts on angled joints and filling the resulting gaps with polyurethane adhesive which is the hack method promoted by BF. Somehow this was deemed inferior and prone to leakage. Sorry, but I knew what I was building and made certain the joints were very tight, nailed and completely glue-filled. There are no leaks.The cabinet worked fine for what it is....a very old horn-loaded design that's extremely labor intensive and results in a peaky subwoofer. But you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and execting the same performance of a 600w 18" cabinet from a 200w 10" cabinet is ludicrous.So hopefully you can see why I'm a tad more than just skeptical of any claims from the BF crowd. Heres a some links, read all for the piezo story: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290.htm http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/prosoundhire/dr290%20review.htm http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2718 And where are your measurments of both cabs? Or can you STILL not get the free measurement software to work? Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 31, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 And where are your measurments of both cabs? Or can you STILL not get the free measurement software to work? Les No Les, I haven't wasted any more time with those subs. Nobody needs to take my word for it; those who trust my opinion can do so, those who don't can ignore it and learn for themselves. I'm sure you'll keep finding people to buy ancient designs they could find elsewhere for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kevin T Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Knowing how to eq? OK but on the powered EON I'm referring to theres only a 2 band EQ so I do turn down both bass & Treb to 10 oclock I'm just looking for better options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Good grief! Read the "piezo story" and then look at the eq curves required to achieve even reasonable flatness. IIRC, each pixel on the Behringer RTA is 1dB in "high res mode" so that's a +/-3dB at best equalized result and it looks like it may be +/-5dB on some photos except that it's hard to see on the monitor to be sure. That's with between 6 and 10dB of CORRECTION!!! He says repeatadly that major eq is a must. My cabinets are that flat with NO eq, and they are easy to get flatter with a couple dB here and there, nothing radical. Same applies with say the JBL MP's or SRX's, and both work perfectly acceptably in many cases without eq and certainly don't require all that correction. This is an old story, as Craig mentions. They are not bad speakers, but they aren't $3000 box killers either. (Don't forget the absurd claims that they stop the EAW KF650/850/SB boxes at 1/10th the price) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Good grief! Read the "piezo story" and then look at the eq curves required to achieve even reasonable flatness. IIRC, each pixel on the Behringer RTA is 1dB in "high res mode" so that's a +/-3dB at best equalized result and it looks like it may be +/-5dB on some photos except that it's hard to see on the monitor to be sure. That's with between 6 and 10dB of CORRECTION!!! He says repeatadly that major eq is a must. My cabinets are that flat with NO eq, and they are easy to get flatter with a couple dB here and there, nothing radical. Same applies with say the JBL MP's or SRX's, and both work perfectly acceptably in many cases without eq and certainly don't require all that correction. This is an old story, as Craig mentions. They are not bad speakers, but they aren't $3000 box killers either. (Don't forget the absurd claims that they stop the EAW KF650/850/SB boxes at 1/10th the price) You shouldn't have to do major work just to correct the peakiness of a speaker. I run eq's flat in general and presently don't have one on my mains (I do intend to get something eventually). I know I don't have a great system, but it doesn't sound awful without eq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Harmonycat Posted February 1, 2008 Members Share Posted February 1, 2008 I did say at the very top of the thread that I am not actually even looking at the moment. If I did I would probably get one of the Selenium drivers that were recommended above and import them from the states (significantly cheaper than local). Price wise I could get away with about $40-45 a piece plus postage, I've seen some piezos cost that much. As to where I am situated. Parramatta, second largest city in Aus and about 30 minutes from the largest city in Aus so I'm sure there would be someone close by. Well...Moody my man.....every statement that you have made in this thread indicates that you are astute and wise enough to separate the "wheat from the chaf". There are guys on this forum with incredible depth of knowledge...learned the old fashioned way...through doing. These folks are the backbone of this forum and despite the many years I have been involved with sound, it does my heart good to read that others "hear" the same as I do. An "educated ear" is something that is indeed a gift. Combine that with certain people's "mind blowing" depth in this field and and you get the feeling that you are fortunate to cross the paths of others thousands of miles away, who you would never meet in your life otherwise. Reinforcement is wonderful and is a term that does not just apply to sound. It can be a confimation of theory or or an opening in perception. Some here are just great at reinforcement. Those Seleniums are sweet...anybody who has used them will tell you so. I am pleased that someone else did. And.....if someone points out that there is a "quackiness" in using another method of high frequency reproduction, then you can believe it. There is a "Doctor in this Sonic House".....his Avatar however, makes me believe that he is a Veterinarian.....:poke: Hey...somebody has to keep the Bovine Fertilizer from overflowing and keep the Animals in check.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 1, 2008 Members Share Posted February 1, 2008 If I was a vet, I would post one of my nastier pictures. Work & ride with vets all the time though. My point, and the points by some of the others here, is to add a little reality to some of the suggestions and bragging where the premise does not match with what is the generally accepted reality. It doesn't mean it's a terrible thing but is not necessicarily quite as represented IN MY OPINION. There is quite a range between good and great. Claiming something is "great" rather than just good should be backed up with proof, and we have not seen what I would consider proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 1, 2008 Members Share Posted February 1, 2008 OK but on the powered EON I'm referring to theres only a 2 band EQ so I do turn down both bass & Treb to 10 oclock I'm just looking for better optionsYou add an EQ before them. Unless you are using them on their own w/o any other mixing capabilities. BTW, Set them so they sound the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 1, 2008 CMS Author Share Posted February 1, 2008 I'm glad Andy saw what I saw. I was going to just leave this one be...I'm tired of that whole thing. I didn't read the lengthy diatribe word for word, but I don't recall any mention of applying *any* EQ to the JBL's. Seems a bit odd that a 'head to head' comparison "review" might apply EQ to one subject and not the other. But perhaps I missed something. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I did. So, this leaves us with the lingering question; Is Bill going to include a processing box with his plans for these piezo arrays? Is the cost of a Behringer (how fitting with the 'LCD' approach to sound) DEQ considered in the comparison cost/value? At any rate, the curious should definitely go check out what BF has to offer, ask questions here and there, and make their own decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 1, 2008 Members Share Posted February 1, 2008 Yes, for some folks Bill's speakers are a good value and meet the needs very well. There's nothing wrong with them for some applications but they aren't "better" then the pro boxes... they are a viable alternative to the entry/mid-level MI level boxes though and worth building if a somewhat complex wood project is desired and expectations are not for a $3000 box killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members preacherman672 Posted February 2, 2008 Members Share Posted February 2, 2008 Nobody needs to take my word for it; those who trust my opinion can do so, those who don't can ignore it and learn for themselves. Which is exactly what I did when you wrote the original review. PTL Les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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