Members Axisplayer Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 On a semi-different topic, I find that too many sound professionals don't think of their role as "musical" enough. I think they should consider the art of running sound as "playing an instrument." When I quit performing, all my friends thought I was crazy because I AM a good guitar player. They kept telling me I would miss it "just being a soundman." I told them they had it all wrong. People spend years as the first chair violinist just waiting for the chance to be the conductor. The conductor doesn't play anymore. I am now the conductor. If you have never played any instrument you will make a terrible conductor or soundman. I didn't give up anything. I graduated to conductor from first chair guitarist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Pfft. Well, shyeah...in an ideal world we could afford sound at every show.I'm a huge perfectionist. I'm sure it drives the rest of the band crazy, but I would LOVE to have perfect sound at EVERY show! I would love to have perfect everything at every show. But I can't ask the guys to play for free (break even with their tab) just so we can pay a sound guy. Just a wild guess - this wouldn't happen to be your 1st gigging band, would it??? The reason I ask is, anyone who's gigged for awhile knows the reality of the situation: you NEED a PA to play a gig - and a decent PA - and someone able to run it - isn't cheap, and never will be... If you can't afford to pay for such a PA and person to run it, then *maybe* you're not ready to play out - regardless of how much you *think* you are... Furthermore, the economics of this situation is much more YOUR problem than it is of the owner/operator of your local PAs... I've played in bands for over 30 years, and got into sound a couple of years ago - at 1st, it was because my band needed a rehearsal PA... Gradually, I ended up with around $15k in sound and light gear - that my band uses, and that I rent out when we're not gigging... My band typically gets $400-$600 per gig, and they're fortunate that I don't charge them for the use of my PA - when I run sound for other bands, I get $250-$300... In other words, I make more money by running sound than I do playing in my own band - and that's par for the course in this biz... Now, before you jump to conclusions - my band is pretty good(we just got added to a show Dokken is doing next month, for example), and we stay pretty much as busy as we want to be - however, that doesn't change the economic realities of this situation... *IF* I hadn't ponied up, my band would still be paying out $250-$350 per gig for sound and lights - regardless of how much we - as a band - got paid... If this sounds a bit harsh, that's just the way it is... Soundmen aren't "raping" you - your band just isn't earning enough to be in this game, plain and simple... Typically, fledgling bands do openers for quite awhile for more profitable acts(whom pay for the sound and lights for the gig) - before booking their own gigs - if you're trying to skip this step, you're going to run into these sort of problems(amongst others)... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 But I can't ask the guys to play for free (break even with their tab) just so we can pay a sound guy.If you ever want to "crawl up outta the mud" of them low paying gigs - yes, you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Special J Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you have never played any instrument you will make a terrible conductor or soundman. This is simply not true. At least the sound guy part. I know several GREAT soundmen who were not musicians beforehand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 My experience has been otherwise. I have heard that from many people over the years and have come to believe it. There may be some exceptions, but that is what they are...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sorocknroll Posted July 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 When I quit performing, all my friends thought I was crazy because I AM a good guitar player. They kept telling me I would miss it "just being a soundman." I told them they had it all wrong. People spend years as the first chair violinist just waiting for the chance to be the conductor. The conductor doesn't play anymore. I am now the conductor. If you have never played any instrument you will make a terrible conductor or soundman. I didn't give up anything. I graduated to conductor from first chair guitarist. It's great to hear you say that.I wish all sound guys had that attitude.No matter what you're doing in any facet of life, you should be doing it because you want to, not because you can't do something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sorocknroll Posted July 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Just a wild guess - this wouldn't happen to be your 1st gigging band, would it???The reason I ask is, anyone who's gigged for awhile knows the reality of the situation: you NEED a PA to play a gig - and a decent PA - and someone able to run it - isn't cheap, and never will be... If you can't afford to pay for such a PA and person to run it, then *maybe* you're not ready to play out - regardless of how much you *think* you are... Furthermore, the economics of this situation is much more YOUR problem than it is of the owner/operator of your local PAs...I've played in bands for over 30 years, and got into sound a couple of years ago - at 1st, it was because my band needed a rehearsal PA... Gradually, I ended up with around $15k in sound and light gear - that my band uses, and that I rent out when we're not gigging... My band typically gets $400-$600 per gig, and they're fortunate that I don't charge them for the use of my PA - when I run sound for other bands, I get $250-$300... In other words, I make more money by running sound than I do playing in my own band - and that's par for the course in this biz... Now, before you jump to conclusions - my band is pretty good(we just got added to a show Dokken is doing next month, for example), and we stay pretty much as busy as we want to be - however, that doesn't change the economic realities of this situation... *IF* I hadn't ponied up, my band would still be paying out $250-$350 per gig for sound and lights - regardless of how much we - as a band - got paid...If this sounds a bit harsh, that's just the way it is... Soundmen aren't "raping" you - your band just isn't earning enough to be in this game, plain and simple... Typically, fledgling bands do openers for quite awhile for more profitable acts(whom pay for the sound and lights for the gig) - before booking their own gigs - if you're trying to skip this step, you're going to run into these sort of problems(amongst others)... - georgestrings We have a PA at every show... When I said "I wish we could afford sound at every show", I meant I wish we could afford to PAY for sound at every show.Obviously we don't do a show without sound. I'm chuckling at how silly that sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sorocknroll Posted July 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Just a wild guess - this wouldn't happen to be your 1st gigging band, would it???The reason I ask is, anyone who's gigged for awhile knows the reality of the situation: you NEED a PA to play a gig - and a decent PA - and someone able to run it - isn't cheap, and never will be... If you can't afford to pay for such a PA and person to run it, then *maybe* you're not ready to play out - regardless of how much you *think* you are... Furthermore, the economics of this situation is much more YOUR problem than it is of the owner/operator of your local PAs...I've played in bands for over 30 years, and got into sound a couple of years ago - at 1st, it was because my band needed a rehearsal PA... Gradually, I ended up with around $15k in sound and light gear - that my band uses, and that I rent out when we're not gigging... My band typically gets $400-$600 per gig, and they're fortunate that I don't charge them for the use of my PA - when I run sound for other bands, I get $250-$300... In other words, I make more money by running sound than I do playing in my own band - and that's par for the course in this biz... Now, before you jump to conclusions - my band is pretty good(we just got added to a show Dokken is doing next month, for example), and we stay pretty much as busy as we want to be - however, that doesn't change the economic realities of this situation... *IF* I hadn't ponied up, my band would still be paying out $250-$350 per gig for sound and lights - regardless of how much we - as a band - got paid...If this sounds a bit harsh, that's just the way it is... Soundmen aren't "raping" you - your band just isn't earning enough to be in this game, plain and simple... Typically, fledgling bands do openers for quite awhile for more profitable acts(whom pay for the sound and lights for the gig) - before booking their own gigs - if you're trying to skip this step, you're going to run into these sort of problems(amongst others)... - georgestrings Thanks for the advice.I'm gonna quit the band and cancel all my gigs, though, since you don't think I belong in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sorocknroll Posted July 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 This is simply not true. At least the sound guy part. I know several GREAT soundmen who were not musicians beforehand. As do I. In fact, many many many many musicians could never cut it as a soundman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Terrible may have been a strong word, but I stand by the concept. I don't think you can ever be great at mixing without having played an instrument. That is my experience. We will just have to agree to disagree because it is subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sorocknroll Posted July 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Terrible may have been a strong word, but I stand by the concept. I don't think you can ever be great at mixing without having played an instrument.That is my experience. We will just have to agree to disagree because it is subjective. Fair enough. God knows, the majority of opinions on virtually anything musical or band-related are going to be developed by experience...and that's something that varies for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 I know several GREAT soundmen who were not musicians beforehand.Still, it's a bit of a handicap you'd have to overcome. If nothing else bands are more comfortable with taking advice from someone who knows the difference between the sound of 9's vs 10's, 10's vs 12's, a Fender vs a Marshall, and can play a couple simple licks on the drums, guitar, bass and keys . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zonked Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 I wouldn't say that going from guitarist to soundman is like moving from musician to conductor. Conductors of bands are people like James Brown. Soundmen and are an important part of the support team, just like lights, stage etc Additionally, most people I know who are musicians aren't really investing countless hours learning an instrument with a secret desire to become soundmen. As far as hiring sound for a beginning band is concerned, you do what you can. Borrow, buy used, and work within your means and build up a decent working PA. When you are good enough and people want to pay you to see you perform, then you can employ a sounman and/or sound if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Still, it's a bit of a handicap you'd have to overcome. If nothing else bands are more comfortable with taking advice from someone who knows the difference between the sound of 9's vs 10's, 10's vs 12'syou mean guitar string gauges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 We have a PA at every show... When I said "I wish we could afford sound at every show", I meant I wish we could afford to PAY for sound at every show.Obviously we don't do a show without sound. I'm chuckling at how silly that sounds. Hey, I'm just taking you at your own words - OK, given THIS post, how exactly do you get "sound" without paying for it??? - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members georgestrings Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Thanks for the advice.I'm gonna quit the band and cancel all my gigs, though, since you don't think I belong in the game. Now I'm thinking you're either trolling, or are an idiot - I'm not sure which one just yet... - georgestrings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Special J Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Still, it's a bit of a handicap you'd have to overcome. If nothing else bands are more comfortable with taking advice from someone who knows the difference between the sound of 9's vs 10's, 10's vs 12's, a Fender vs a Marshall, and can play a couple simple licks on the drums, guitar, bass and keys . Not necessarily. For one-off gigs, the bands don't know me from Adam and would have no idea if I was a musician or not. I don't think any of that stuff makes a bit of difference. None of it helps your technical abilities. The only relation is in the art of mixing vs. the art of playing. One has very little to do with the other and mixing is just one part (and the most subjective part) of being a sound reinforcement professional (how about that title?). Some ear training may give you an edge over the next guy, but I think you would do just as well to be a music fan and have listened intensely to lots of different music, than to be, say, a heavy metal bassist. Perhaps having never played an instrument would make you a more objective mix engineer, whereas being a guitarist might lead you to always mix the guitars a little too loud. I think most most sound guys are or have been musicians due to the nature of the business. Most guys got started because they owned/operated their band's PA, but some of the pioneer sound men were hi-fi repair guys, not musos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KF650SB1000 Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Terrible may have been a strong word, but I stand by the concept. I don't think you can ever be great at mixing without having played an instrument.That is my experience. We will just have to agree to disagree because it is subjective. I'd rather have a person who loves the sound of a band than a musician as FOH engineer... One thing I've noticed or tends to happen is that when a "___(instrument)___ player" is mixing bad, the tend favor the "___(instrument)___" over everything else within the band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 you mean guitar string gauges? You win the prize - close enough though the 10's vs 12's would more likely refer to speaker sizes as very few electric guitarists use .012" high "e" strings . Extra credit question - what's the best way to piss off a percussionist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Special J Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 Still, it's a bit of a handicap you'd have to overcome. If nothing else bands are more comfortable with taking advice from someone who knows the difference between the sound of 9's vs 10's, 10's vs 12's, a Fender vs a Marshall, and can play a couple simple licks on the drums, guitar, bass and keys . Not necessarily. For one-off gigs, the bands don't know me from Adam and would have no idea if I was a musician or not. I don't think any of that stuff makes a bit of difference. None of it helps your technical abilities. The only relation is in the art of mixing vs. the art of playing. One has very little to do with the other and mixing is just one part (and the most subjective part) of being a sound reinforcement professional (how about that title?). Some ear training may give you an edge over the next guy, but I think you would do just as well to be a music fan and have listened intensely to lots of different music, than to be, say, a heavy metal bassist. Perhaps having never played an instrument would make you a more objective mix engineer, whereas being a guitarist might lead you to always mix the guitars a little too loud. I think most most sound guys are or have been musicians due to the nature of the business. Most guys got started because they owned/operated their band's PA, but some of the pioneer sound men were hi-fi repair guys, not musos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 You win the prize - close enough though the 10's vs 12's would more likely refer to speaker sizes as very few electric guitarists use .012" high "e" strings . Extra credit question - what's the best way to piss off a percussionist? what do i win??? I know you were just throwing out examples, but i think string gauge is not far above pick color on overall sound contribution Nor would it clue me in as to the competency of a soundperson. although it may be somewhat helpful to break the ice when conversing with a player onstage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 All good points SJ. I heard a demo album the other day and I instantly knew the studio guy was a guitarist - could barely hear the keys and the vocals were just below the guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 ... i think string gauge is not far above pick color on overall sound contribution . I can hear the difference between 9's and 10's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Special J Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 So how do you piss off a percussionist?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted July 7, 2009 Members Share Posted July 7, 2009 I can hear the difference between 9's and 10's for sure. i won't doubt you. I think that if someone started conversing with me onstage about string gauge I'd be instantly worried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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