Tone pot wiring...

[Jazzer2020]

Long story about how I go here...

But basically I am trying to get my Gibson SG neck tone pot to work.

A couple of days ago I was able to experiment with a bunch of different cap values.
I simply hooked up the caps with alligator plugs and found the best sounding ones.

I narrowed them down to two.

Then when I decided on one I soldered it into place.

But now it doesn't work!!!
It's been frustrating.
Obviously something isn't connected right, or the soldering was messed up.

I unsoldered the cap and took a photo.
Does anything look obvious from the photo?

Last month I bit the bullet after trying to get my Gibson ES-175 wired to eliminate a pop/crackle
and brought it in to a shop. They re-wired and put in all new parts. Ouch!

Hope I don't have to to it again with this guitar.
 

[badpenguin]

Alas, the picture is garbage.

2 Humbuckers/3-Way Toggle Switch/2 Volumes/2 Tones (guitarelectronics.com)

2 Humbuckers/3-Way Lever Switch/2 Volumes/2 Tones (guitarelectronics.com)

one modern, one vintage.

Edited May 3, 2022 by badpenguin

[Jazzer2020]

Thanks.

I know I can get dozens of wiring diagrams.
I know the correct wiring for my guitar.

What I wanted to know is if you could see anything obvious that was sticking out?
A bad wire, solder etc. etc.

I can see the other vol/tone pot, how it's wired. It's working fine.
And I wired the tone cap in it (you can't see it in the photo).

Edited May 3, 2022 by Jazzer2020

[badpenguin]

The picture doesn't tell me anything. It tells me one pot isn't in the circuit, and that's all. Perhaps a better pic, you know, overhead, showing the entirety of the electronic cavity would be more helpful.

[Jazzer2020]

Here are some more photos.

I made an interesting discovery just now (for me).
I thought I had found the solution, but it turned out to just be a discovery.
With a cap hooked up I was playing through an amp.
There was no difference in sound, as I turned the tone pot.

Then I moved the alligator clip to attach the cap to the other tab on the tone pot.
Bingo! I thought. All of a sudden I was getting a very muted dark sound.
But as I turned the tone pot, the tone remained the same all the time.

So attaching the cap to one tab gave one extreme, and attaching it to the other
tab gave the other extreme. That's all. 
 

(In the first two and last two photos I have desoldered some extra solder from the wire going to the volume
pot, near the black cloth cover.)

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Jazzer2020

[badpenguin]

Ok, so it sounded as if you had the tone set to zero, despite the setting. Something is grounding out on the tone pot. Pull the tone pot and add some electrical tape to the bottom of the lugs, then do the same to the volume control. The black paint there is shielding paint and might be causing a short.

[Jazzer2020]

7 hours ago, badpenguin said:

Ok, so it sounded as if you had the tone set to zero, despite the setting. Something is grounding out on the tone pot. Pull the tone pot and add some electrical tape to the bottom of the lugs, then do the same to the volume control. The black paint there is shielding paint and might be causing a short.

Yes something definitely seems to be shorting out.

As I mentioned in my first post, before I did any soldering, I simply used alligator clips to test out more than half a dozen different caps.
I did that SUCCESSFULLY. Meaning, each time I put the cap in the circuit I could turn the pot and listen to the effect of each cap, from 10-0.
The caps were all working in the circuit.

It was only when I soldered one cap in the circuit (also having soldered an attachment wire to the hot lead because it was too short)
that I started to have this problem (the cap was not working).
 

I tried your suggestion of using electrical tape on the tab ends but that didn't work.

Is there a way I can test the connections using a multi-meter?
I'm thinking of the switch, the pot leads etc.

If I can't do that, I'm thinking of replacing all the pots and starting from scratch. 
 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Jazzer2020

[daddymack]

looking at the 'spaghetti spider' soldered to that one pot by the switch, I would probably start there....

yes, you should trace each connection with a VOM, and test the 'hot lead' and see if it is shorted to ground.

[Jazzer2020]

4 hours ago, daddymack said:

looking at the 'spaghetti spider' soldered to that one pot by the switch, I would probably start there....

yes, you should trace each connection with a VOM, and test the 'hot lead' and see if it is shorted to ground.

Thanks again for your help!

Here are a few observations that may give some clues to you.

First I tested the hot lead without using the VOM.
I simply disconnected the hot lead from the volume pot tab and no sound of course.
Then I connected it and sound came through as expected.

Then I connected the volume tab to the tone tab directly with a wire (no capacitor).
Sound came through. Is this expected?

Then I connected the volume tab to the 2nd tone tab directly with a wire (no capacitor).
No sound. Is this expected?

If this wasn't helpful or didn't give anything unexpected, could you please tell me what to check
for specifically with the VOM. I'm not sure what to trace back and where to do it?

[daddymack]

view this video...you could skip to about 10:00 in.

On your SG there is no simple 'do this', IMHO, because of the terribly sloppy solder and wire routing. If you brought this to me, I would unsolder all that spider...first...and then re-do it neatly.

Then I would be able to start looking for shorts.

but...for your approach, when you do this: " I connected the volume tab to the 2nd tone tab directly with a wire (no capacitor)"

check the hot lead to ground with the VOM.

[Jazzer2020]

3 hours ago, daddymack said:

view this video...you could skip to about 10:00 in...

On your SG there is no simple 'do this', IMHO, because of the terribly sloppy solder and wire routing. If you brought this to me, I would unsolder all that spider...first...and then re-do it neatly.

Then I would be able to start looking for shorts.

but...for your approach, when you do this: " I connected the volume tab to the 2nd tone tab directly with a wire (no capacitor)"

check the hot lead to ground with the VOM.

Thanks for the video!

I checked the hot lead to ground. The hot lead does not go to ground!

I did another test which I think has gotten to the root of the problem.
I believe I somehow fried my neck tone pot.

When I connect the neck volume pot to the bridge tone pot, it works.
That is, I can control the tone of the neck pickup using the bridge pot!

Would you agree with me that I have troubleshooted the problem?

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Jazzer2020

[daddymack]

possibly. Replace the tone pot and see...

That was my first inclination based on your posts.

What year is your SG?

'frying' a potentiometer is not an easy thing to do, they should last decades [my '62 Melody Maker still has its original pots].

[Jazzer2020]

1 hour ago, daddymack said:

possibly. Replace the tone pot and see...

That was my first inclination based on your posts.

What year is your SG?

'frying' a potentiometer is not an easy thing to do, they should last decades [my '62 Melody Maker still has its original pots].

It was the pot!

So much for the spider wiring on the Volume pot.

I swapped out the existing for a spare 500K I had hanging around from ages ago
and it worked!
Now I have to decide on a cap value and I should be good to go.

My SG is circa early 2000's.
It went through a traumatic experience early in its life when I decided to weigh it.
I got out my scale and was intending on weighing myself with and without the guitar
to figure out its weight.

But things didn't go according to plan when I put the guitar on a stand next to the scale
and a couple of seconds later watched the guitar fall forward and swing face down onto a tile floor!
The neck snapped apart immediately near the headstock.
 

[Mikeo]

23 hours ago, Jazzer2020 said:

It was the pot!

So much for the spider wiring on the Volume pot.

I swapped out the existing for a spare 500K I had hanging around from ages ago
and it worked!
Now I have to decide on a cap value and I should be good to go.

My SG is circa early 2000's.
It went through a traumatic experience early in its life when I decided to weigh it.
I got out my scale and was intending on weighing myself with and without the guitar
to figure out its weight.

But things didn't go according to plan when I put the guitar on a stand next to the scale
and a couple of seconds later watched the guitar fall forward and swing face down onto a tile floor!
The neck snapped apart immediately near the headstock.
 

OMG

I hate to say this, but many a luthiers have made a fine living repairing Gibson headstock.

I am not in the club. YET.

One of  SG's is 42 years old and in killer shape. My other SG is a classic with P90's.

 

 

 

[Jazzer2020]

31 minutes ago, Mikeo said:

OMG

I hate to say this, but many a luthiers have made a fine living repairing Gibson headstock.

I am not in the club. YET.

One of  SG's is 42 years old and in killer shape. My other SG is a classic with P90's.

Yes after it happened, I learned how common broken headstocks are on Gibsons because of the
headstock angle.

I like the SG's and bought mine because I was looking for a lighter Gibson guitar.
I used to have an original 1968 Les Paul (original owner) but sold it years ago
at a ridiculous price. The guitar was too heavy for me.
 

Breaking the headstock was an interesting learning experience for me.
It happened on a weekend and so I was in a panic because my regular
luthier was closed until Tuesday!

I couldn't bear to see the guitar in pieces, so I tried to fix it myself.
Long story short, I managed to glue the neck back together and was
surprised when all went well.

It inspired me to get out my broken violin bow that I had snapped in two
years before. I was also successful at gluing it back together and it plays
and sounds just as good as before the accident.
 

One interesting thing I learned was that the glue is so strong that if
the neck or bow should ever break again it is almost certain it would be in a different
location from the glued part!
 

 

 

[Mikeo]

1 hour ago, Jazzer2020 said:

Yes after it happened, I learned how common broken headstocks are on Gibsons because of the
headstock angle.

I like the SG's and bought mine because I was looking for a lighter Gibson guitar.
I used to have an original 1968 Les Paul (original owner) but sold it years ago
at a ridiculous price. The guitar was too heavy for me.
 

Breaking the headstock was an interesting learning experience for me.
It happened on a weekend and so I was in a panic because my regular
luthier was closed until Tuesday!

I couldn't bear to see the guitar in pieces, so I tried to fix it myself.
Long story short, I managed to glue the neck back together and was
surprised when all went well.

It inspired me to get out my broken violin bow that I had snapped in two
years before. I was also successful at gluing it back together and it plays
and sounds just as good as before the accident.
 

One interesting thing I learned was that the glue is so strong that if
the neck or bow should ever break again it is almost certain it would be in a different
location from the glued part!
 

 

 

Les Pauls are supposed to be heavy. The do make weight relief-ed ones, but who wants to pay for air.

I bought my LP standard in 1982.

I ordered it from a same dealer in my old home town.

It was supposed to be a custom, but Norlin turned it into a standard, new they saw my order come through. Note the maple neck. There's a few small dings in it after 40 years.

It's a weird color gold too.

Mostly when I gigged with and electric I used a Tele and a Strat. Yeah they are lighter for sure.

 

 

I'd buy another Gibson Les Paul, but this time I want a 1960 Flame top.

I'm holding out, cause I am semi retired and looking. 

I'm not a collector, but I have more than a few guitars kicking around. My wife is waiting for me to die, so she can hoe the house free of music gear. If she dies first, I'm gonna bury her in the back yard cheap and buy a few more guitars.

 

[Jazzer2020]

34 minutes ago, Mikeo said:

Les Pauls are supposed to be heavy. The do make weight relief-ed ones, but who wants to pay for air.

I bought my LP standard in 1982.

I ordered it from a same dealer in my old home town.

It was supposed to be a custom, but Norlin turned it into a standard, new they saw my order come through. Note the maple neck. There's a few small dings in it after 40 years.

It's a weird color gold too.

Mostly when I gigged with and electric I used a Tele and a Strat. Yeah they are lighter for sure.

 

 

I'd buy another Gibson Les Paul, but this time I want a 1960 Flame top.

I'm holding out, cause I am semi retired and looking. 

I'm not a collector, but I have more than a few guitars kicking around. My wife is waiting for me to die, so she can hoe the house free of music gear. If she dies first, I'm gonna bury her in the back yard cheap and buy a few more guitars.

 

Nice looking guitar!
Mine looked similar, but a finer detailed gold top, not paint-looking
and a one piece neck, different knobs.
And of course it had the P-90 pickups. 
Around the time I sold mine I picked up a Squier strat.
I've got a ton of guitars but only two solid bodies; the Squier and the SG.