Members Chickentown Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 I've had close-calls with fights breaking out near my FOH racks or people screwing around and shoving each other into speaker stacks, but luckily no real damage. Maybe some of you have experience or a game plan. It seems like there might be different approaches for recouping a damage loss in different scenarios. How would you handle the situation (both immediately and in terms of follow-up) if someone in a club: 1) just walked up and gave your mixer a pre-meditated beer bath 2) was fighting and your gear was a "civilian casualty" 3) steals something - grabs a road case and whisks out the back door during the show I know we'd all be pissed and have some great revenge ideas, but I'm more interested in the practical - sorting out fault and getting gear fixed or replaced if possible. A game-plan. I'm talking about a small club environment assuming I have a simple, low cost insurance rider on my home policy. Let's assume the dive bar also has insurance Cops and police reports? Bar insurance vs. my insurance? Maybe this is too sprawling a topic, but any successful practices and experiences in this area would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 The only reliable protection from damage losses is a valid insurance policy. Talk to your agent (or call and agent if you don't have one) and ask about what's called an "Inland Marine" rider or policy. Be sure to let them know you use the gear professionally if they tell you that your homeowner's policy will cover it. Regarding who is responsible; that's up to the insurance company to determine, and would be based upon invetigation and possibly police reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chickentown Posted November 10, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thanks, Craig. Yep - I've got an "Inland Marine" policy and the agent knows I haul my gear to clubs to use professionally. So it's always my insurance that covers when the damage or theft occurs in a club? Do the cops get called? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thanks, Criag. Yep - I've got an "Inland Marine" policy and the agent knows I haul my gear to clubs to use professionally.So it's always my insurance that covers when the damage or theft occurs in a club?Do the cops get called? Always call the cops. A police report prevents the "I don't know what you're talking about" response you could get from a venue owner. It might be true if the owner isn't there all the time. It's not always your insurance that should cover a loss. But your insurance company (and its lawyers) are in a much better position to determine whether subrogation is possible. And it's better to be paid quickly by your insurance company and letting them handle pursuit of a subrogation than attempting to get anything from a venue's insurance. You've got zero leverage in that instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 FWIW, I should add that some loss is inevitable in this business. Your deductible, and common sense should determine whether you go after an owner for a theft or damage issue, or let it go. Losing the gig may cost a lot more than losing a mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chickentown Posted November 10, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Thanks for the advice, Craigv! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 I was worried I'd be dealing with something like this on a gig this past Saturday. Drunk older man stumbling around on the dance floor, falls backwards and hits the back of his head square on the edge of a metal drum riser. Lots of bleeding, an unconscious old man, and a wedding party turned sour. Fortunately, he came to slightly thereafter, and nobody faulted anyone at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MFlanagan Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 I was worried I'd be dealing with something like this on a gig this past Saturday. Drunk older man stumbling around on the dance floor, falls backwards and hits the back of his head square on the edge of a metal drum riser. Lots of bleeding, an unconscious old man, and a wedding party turned sour. Fortunately, he came to slightly thereafter, and nobody faulted anyone at all. Yet... Don't be surprised if a lawsuit gets filed. Just because they don't make a claim right then and there doesn't mean that there isn't one in the works once people start telling them to sue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Chickentown - Besides your insurance policy, I believe your relationship with the club (and how expensive their lawyer's suits are) would effect the outcome. I recall one incident where a fight broke out while I was on a break. I rushed to the stage, but my guitar had already been knocked over. Luckily, except for some very minor dings, they only took a pick-up out - didn't see how that happened. I knew the club owner and as he knew I was a scotch afficionado at the time, he gave me an expensive bottle, equal to the probable cost of the pick-up. It was a fair deal at the time:) But.... I recall another gig at a very high end restaurant, for an office Christmas party of about 200 people. A well dressed (pearls, furs...) but inebriated woman fell into the leader's saxophone. That ended the gig for him right there, and we did the rest of the night without him. Neither the agent, the restaurant, nor the company whose party it was would help in anyway. Because it again was on a break, the woman, who had been sitting 10 feet from us all night, had been spirited away by her husband (so we were told). So the saxman couldn't even approach her. He ended up eating the whole $500 repair bill. His only recourse would been the courts. Let's see, lawyers bill at $300 to $500 an hour for that kind of stuff and.... well that wasn't going to work, especially since the restaurant had probably already consulted their lawyer(s) before refusing to pay (a freebie phone call most likely). Can't really say those are success stories, but maybe there aren't many out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dangordan Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Yet... Don't be surprised if a lawsuit gets filed. Just because they don't make a claim right then and there doesn't mean that there isn't one in the works once people start telling them to sue. Sue the drunk for getting the drum riser bloody. There are venues where disorderly conduct is common and most where it's rare and handled by venue staff. I had a large stumbling drunk almost fall on my mixer 2x in one evening and it was up to me to shove him away to prevent it. No amout of $ will have me walk thru the doors of that place again. If you're having insurance claims on a regular basis you're working the wrong venues and you insurance company will drop you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 It has been my experiance that club owners are about the last in line to step up and offer to do anything. Usally right behind the insurance company. We fried a drive rack in one venue due to miswired plugs, and still got nothing, other then the satisfation of giving the venue free tech support to figure out the problem, and tell them to hire a electricial to fix it. you need liablity insureace to deal with the "guys break stuff". However, I dought you will ever make a claim for gear, because someone grabed a case and walked off with it. The raise in rates, and the dedutable, will make it "not worth it" for the gear stolen - insureance companyies make a living off of this attitude. The execption is if the whole rig is stolen. Example - guy walks off witih mic case worth .. 1100$. firstly the mics will be worth 700, cause they are used. (insure might pay replacement value, but I don't know ....) then you will have 500 or 1000$ deducable, and cause you made a claim your rates will increase by like 20% for the next 3 years. .. worth it? now a 20 000$ rig is stolen ... that is different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Yeah, we're hoping we don't hear anything from it. The bar never even called an ambulance, they just had the band start up as soon as the place was cleared. Classy joint. To add insult to injury, they cut us off after the first set because "not enough people cared about the band and they could just make as much off the radio playing". At which point we tore down and left, with much less in our pockets than we'd like, and took the crowd with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Example - guy walks off witih mic case worth .. 1100$. firstly the mics will be worth 700, cause they are used. (insure might pay replacement value, but I don't know ....) then you will have 500 or 1000$ deducable, and cause you made a claim your rates will increase by like 20% for the next 3 years... worth it?now a 20 000$ rig is stolen ... that is different. That's not always the case for the jump in rates. I was told by my State Farm rep that as long as they don't pay out more than 1k on the claim it doesn't cause a rise in your rates. This was on a mobile policy for my guitar rig when I was gigging all the time. It also wasn't under a home owners poilicy because I didn't own a home at the time. However, just for extra info. They told me that the 1k limit without a rise in premium alsoapplied to me auto policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 Example - guy walks off witih mic case worth .. 1100$. firstly the mics will be worth 700, cause they are used. (insure might pay replacement value, but I don't know ....) then you will have 500 or 1000$ deducable, and cause you made a claim your rates will increase by like 20% for the next 3 years... worth it?now a 20 000$ rig is stolen ... that is different. That's not always the case for the jump in rates. I was told by my State Farm rep that as long as they don't pay out more than 1k on the claim it doesn't cause a rise in your rates. This was on a mobile policy for my guitar rig when I was gigging all the time. It also wasn't under a home owners poilicy because I didn't own a home at the time. However, just for extra info. They told me that the 1k limit without a rise in premium also applied to my auto policies. Of course every company has a little different details in the poilicies but you never know until you check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 10, 2009 Members Share Posted November 10, 2009 If the club or promoter carries insurance then either you or your insurance company will go after them assuming they were negligent. At our venue, every promoter is required to carry insurance and name the venue and tech suppliers as additionally insured. At least that buys a defense against getting dragged into an injury suit even if you had nothing to do with it. Also, they will pay for damage and losses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 10, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 10, 2009 For smaller losses, no lawyer is needed. Small claims court is held in every jurisdiction, and the upper limit of claims is typically around $1500-2000. This limit should cover most insurance deductibles, and help in the decision process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 Depending on the territory you work, it's advised to have the right tool for the job. To some degree, you gotta roll with the punches. Back when I was doing a lot of production work for grunge acts playing college frats, I used entirely different gear than I use now working mostly convention ballrooms. During my grunge era I sandwiched a layer of Saranwrap between the compression drivers and hornflairs of my wedge monitors. Also, I purposely ran hornloaded FOH stacks because the drivers were recessed and more out of harm's way. Also, I Scotchguarded all of my exposed cone drivers. Also, I worked a lot of shows mixing under a clear vinyl cover. Also, I used a lot of Yellowjacket cable covers. I pressed dents in SM-58 balls out with the blunt end of a drum stick... over, and over, and over... till the mesh screen started to come unraveled. I didn't bring any 421's to shows. The list goes on and on of the stuff I used to do to nerf the system. I expected and prepared for the worst, and was pleasantly surprised when the worst didn't happen... and charged accordingly. Oh, and I always carried a receipt book with me... for the times when somebody clearly broke it on their own willful accord, they just bought it and I sold their new to them broken gear for full retail with a receipt. It got a little heated a few times (pressing the point that they need to exchange legal tender for their broke it, you buy it purchase)... but keeping a cool head and pointing out there's lots of witnesses, and destruction of personal property of this value is potentially a felony in this state... and we can drop any legal intervention with the exchange of receipt and broken stuff for dead presidents. They got a souvenir, I got the ways and means to replace the stuff they broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 don't leave home without this https://www.musicproinsurance.com/default.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 For smaller losses, no lawyer is needed. Small claims court is held in every jurisdiction, and the upper limit of claims is typically around $1500-2000. This limit should cover most insurance deductibles, and help in the decision process. Lawyers often find a legal way around small claims just to drive a financial point home. Sadly, "back off" works pretty good in that context Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 Lawyers often find a legal way around small claims just to drive a financial point home. Sadly, "back off" works pretty good in that context You know the old saying: Most small towns don't have enough going on to support a lawyer, but they generally have enough going on to support two lawyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 You know the old saying:Most small towns don't have enough going on to support a lawyer, but they generally have enough going on to support two lawyers. Yup. That sums it up well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phil Clark Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 Yeah, we're hoping we don't hear anything from it. The bar never even called an ambulance, they just had the band start up as soon as the place was cleared. Classy joint.To add insult to injury, they cut us off after the first set because "not enough people cared about the band and they could just make as much off the radio playing". At which point we tore down and left, with much less in our pockets than we'd like, and took the crowd with us. You really should have contracts. If we show up and set up, we get paid in full, regardless of whether we play a note or not. Most of our shows are outdoor shows, usually for some event, and we usually get to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted November 11, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted November 11, 2009 You really should have contracts. If we show up and set up, we get paid in full, regardless of whether we play a note or not. Most of our shows are outdoor shows, usually for some event, and we usually get to play. A contract is only as good as your ability to enforce the terms. If you aren't willing and able to hire attorneys to sue for breech, there's no point in writing the terms. A lot of shady venues will simply stonewall you and dare you to sue. What's the point of paying $350/hr legal fees for a gig that pays a few times that? The best way I've found to deal with venues you can't trust is to require 50% payment the week prior, and the balance when you arrive at the venue. No cash, don't unload the truck. This also weeds out the places that are cash-insolvent, not sure whether they want a band or soundco, or might be double-booking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 We've known that other bands have had a problem there, so we've catered to exactly what the owner wanted. We've played there at least a half dozen times without issue. It's not the kind of place a contract would have helped because most likely it never would have been signed... and if it was, we'd have to go to court to make good on it anyway, which to be frank, I don't have the time or desire to do for bar-gig pay. We got paid a third of our pay to play a third of our set, which rips us off on setup and teardown, but means I got to go to sleep before midnight for a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Phil Clark Posted November 11, 2009 Members Share Posted November 11, 2009 It's not the kind of place a contract would have helped because most likely it never would have been signed... and if it was, we'd have to go to court to make good on it anyway, which to be frank, I don't have the time or desire to do for bar-gig pay. With us, no signed contract = no gig. That simple. Threats of suing do go both ways. At least with a contract you have an agreement in writing. That said, Craigv's option is also good. Half upfront or you don't even show, and the balance before you bring in even one piece of equipment would work, if you can get that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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