Members dennis a Posted June 18, 2010 Members Share Posted June 18, 2010 Out of curiosity, does anyone here actually have first (or second) hand experience with a show stopping digital-console failure?* Almost show stopping. A problem with a M7CL surfaced just before sound check. The BE was on the phone with Yamaha tech support for over an hour and the Yamaha tech walked the BE through a partial disassembly of the Centralogic section of the mixer in order to identify the problem. The problem could not be identified on site and we had to find a replacement console at 4PM on a Sunday afternoon. Does such an experience turn me back into analog man? Absolutely not! My take on this episode is "s*** happens". Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 18, 2010 Members Share Posted June 18, 2010 So, do most of yous guys gig without a backup mixer these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fishmanrod Posted June 18, 2010 Members Share Posted June 18, 2010 I have never had a mixer go, and I have never had to find a back up. I have had channels go, speakers fry, outboard gear pop, amps go, but never the board. The shows I play, it would cost me a years worth of income for a second board. I suppose I could buy a cheap used Behringer or an old Mackie to act as a backup, but man I hate to spend the dough. I was at a show last night, as an audience member, and saw the biggest console I have ever seen. Last year at Mayhem fest (disturbed, slipknot) they had a pretty nice A and H (don't recall the model) for a crowd of maybe 10,000, and it was maybe 48 channel and a nice board, BUT last night was a free show in Burligton, ONt, MAYBE 3000 and the board was HUGE. I swear the case was 10' long by 4' wide. It FILLED the width of the scaffolding they had it set up on. The back of it must have been 18" high. No it was not two mixers. I could not get close enough to see what it was. What a monster, though. Sounded pretty good, too. So how do you have a spare for that?? Steal the monitor board and hope for the best? It would take 45 minutes just to move the stupid thing out of the way! LOL Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted June 18, 2010 Members Share Posted June 18, 2010 So how do you have a spare for that?? Steal the monitor board and hope for the best? It would take 45 minutes just to move the stupid thing out of the way! Behind the scenes on AC/DC's Black Ice tour as it visits the Palais Omnisports de Bercy in Paris, February 2009. Features an interview with sound engineer Paul 'PAB' Boothroyd on his use of an Electro-Voice X-Array PA system and two Midas mixing consoles, the new, digital Pro 6, and the vintage analogue Pro 40. [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted June 18, 2010 Members Share Posted June 18, 2010 BUT last night was a free show in Burligton, ONt, MAYBE 3000 and the board was HUGE. Burlington, huh? About a 45 minute drive from my stompin' grounds. About the board, I've worked with 3L a few times and have mixed on their Series 5 console. That thing is huge, and they're based out of Mississauga so it could be them. Do you know what speakers they were using? 3L uses a turbosound flashlight rig... so if the hangs were big ass cube-shaped speakers, it's 3L. Ashen-White from Toronto has some EAW line arrays and a few large-framed analog boards. I work quite a bit with Soundbox in Hamilton, but their shtick is mostly in the Christian market. They've got a sweet dV-DOSC rig and went mostly digital on the consoles. Just got a couple new iLive rigs and a couple new digidesign Profile rigs. Haven't used the Profile yet, but I hear it's a little more convoluted than the iLives, which are super easy to use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NUSound Posted June 19, 2010 Members Share Posted June 19, 2010 Yes, the Digico didnt wanna work (for me), musta been broken. So I tossed it to the side (where it was ready to go for the next act in .5 seconds when that acts FOH engineer uploaded his settings to it). I settled into the backup the old standby (Heritage 3000), and mixed the show there, with 3 VCA groups not working, and a headache from having to reset another BE's settings when I was done. Didn't work, or didn't do what you wanted? There is a learning curve (hours for even a quick study) on all of these consoles... that's one HUGE advantage that analog still holds... every analog board is fundamentally the same, whereas every digital console is either trying to redefine the mixing experience or feel as close to analog as possible which means there are a lot of different approaches being presented. Yes, an Pro-6 {censored} the bed and that engineer ended his relationship with digital consoles that moment. Large well known act and engineer so no names. Not saying it can't happen with any console, but it SEEMS to be more common with the more complex digital consoles. I'm convinced that this is largely due to confirmation bias. People see a new technology that is based on something we have all watched fail (computers) and just say "not surprising" when something does go wrong. Unlike most of the guys who come into this forum saying, "I want to use my $50 Wal-Mart laptop live, how does this sound?" these consoles are built from the ground up with software AND hardware in mind designed to work as a system. I'm not saying that bad things don't happen, but usually by the second software version, these boards are rock-solid. Any engineer that swears off digital forever is a bit of a fool. I'm sure there was a time when DSP's were scorned for being unreliable. Anyone know of a tour that is using all-analog speaker processing? I realize that it seems like I'm throwing this guy under the bus simply because his experience is completely different than mine... if the day comes that I'm sitting in a silent venue with 1000 people staring at me wondering why they can't hear anything, I'll probably be saying the same thing. If my dog bites me, I'm going to get rid of the dog and probably hate dogs for a while... then I'll get over it and buy a new dog. Hopefully one with better feature too... like auto-walk, and self-feed. Almost show stopping. A problem with a M7CL surfaced just before sound check. The BE was on the phone with Yamaha tech support for over an hour and the Yamaha tech walked the BE through a partial disassembly of the Centralogic section of the mixer in order to identify the problem. The problem could not be identified on site and we had to find a replacement console at 4PM on a Sunday afternoon. Sounds like a hardware issue. I had a major issue with my (not mine, but I'm the only one that uses it) M7 when I updated the firmware the morning before soundcheck... updating morning of... dumb choice on my part. Called yamaha, downgraded, problem solved. Fix out on Wednesday of the following week. So, do most of yous guys gig without a backup mixer these days? +1 I swear the case was 10' long by 4' wide. It FILLED the width of the scaffolding they had it set up on. The back of it must have been 18" high. No it was not two mixers. I could not get close enough to see what it was. What a monster, though. Sounded pretty good, too. Part of the beauty of digital... you can pack 96+ channels into a frame the same size as 48 channels of analog. So how do you have a spare for that?? Steal the monitor board and hope for the best? It would take 45 minutes just to move the stupid thing out of the way! That's exactly what I would do, digital or analog, if it was the fastest solution. Haven't used the Profile yet, but I hear it's a little more convoluted than the iLives, which are super easy to use. Careful... you may be eating your words (in a good way) once you get a chance on that Profile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NUSound Posted June 19, 2010 Members Share Posted June 19, 2010 Let's see if I can draw this out some more: IMO: The analog market is slowly dying. The Studiolive, IMO, marks the beginning of the end as it shows that reliability and features are improving, as price is falling. Digital is moving from the Tour/Production house-only market and into the hands of the weekend warrior so that in ~10 years the question will have shifted from "Analog or digital?" to "Which digital board?" You can disagree with me on the time frame, but frankly, digital is the future, nobody can really believe otherwise. Typewriters, $150 4-function calculators, and cassette tapes all support my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 19, 2010 Members Share Posted June 19, 2010 Iagree, digital is going to take over... but only when the reliability and user interface provide a secure and reasonably common experience to the user. The Pro 6 failure was substantial and costly. This was a fairly large show (~3000 seats) and sold out. While his reaction was maybe a little over the top, I can certainly understand the feelings based on being in the hot seat at the time of the failure. I think some of the little glitches may also play into the feelings of some users. Things that don't work right then fix themselves. Not conforting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 19, 2010 Members Share Posted June 19, 2010 Don't think I'd bet the farm on a digital console . Analog mixer failures tend to be partial and you can patch around them usually I'm told. Is it really that expensive per show to carry a spare vs the liability of loosing a show? Or could you link two smaller consoles and make do with half your channels if you had to? The iLive system seems nice in that a spare stage box and one of the mini-surfaces as a spare would do yah for both FOH and monitor world I'd think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 19, 2010 Members Share Posted June 19, 2010 I have heard some stories about Pro6 failures - mostly work-aroundable glitches with the displays or whatever, but it does show the risk of a company getting into digital without much history in it. And I wouldn't be surprised if the BE in question was a "Midas or we don't play" sort, and only consented to try a digital board if it had the magic purple Midas paintjob. Looking at other companies - Yamaha and Roland have been building digital gear forever, and their stuff is pretty bulletproof (it took several months after the V-Mix 2.0 came out for 2.001 to appear, and the bug list was basically feature stuff). Would you be worried about using a Yamaha or Roland synth live? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 The BE was a Midas kind of guy (and it was their board they were carrying, sound co's provided racks and stacks only) and that's exactly why he tried to use the Pro 6. I am nervous with anything very complex. An analog console can be a very simple, reliable piece of gear. No reason why digital can't go that way either except that it's really easy to get feature creep and the features get in the was ofthe basic functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 I am nervous with anything very complex. An analog console can be a very simple, reliable piece of gear. No reason why digital can't go that way either except that it's really easy to get feature creep and the features get in the was ofthe basic functions. How is analog any different? Lots of failure points in a big analog desk, though generally you could route around if you had some spare auxes or whatever. As a repair tech I sort of know the Yamaha mixers (disclosure - I work for a Yamaha dealer). While the popular conception of a digital mixing board is that it's a computer with a big sound card and a big mouse (control surface), some manufacturers do a more modular approach. Yamaha does that - when you look at the service manual, there are DSP chips that are allocated to very specific functions. The digital audio being passed between chips and I/O have actual circuit board traces assigned to reverb returns or whatever. If something goes bad, you don't just have a mysterious gremlin but "the EQ on channels 34-37 don't pass audio". In other words, something you can route around. Either analog or digital will not work if the power supply dies. Points to analog for a much quicker reboot if there's a temporary power dropout, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 Analog is different because you don't have multiple timing issues, no managing of bits of data at very high speeds, no sync'ing of all of this stuff together, no high speed math operations, no variable logic that affects the basic core of the data. Power supplies are fairly easy to make robust with over-voltage protection, redundant supplies, OCP, etc. Other than Soundcraft (electrics by Lucas) most manufacturers have managed to make very bullet-proof power supplies. An analog console, even a big one, is a very simple machine. There is input, output and power. All of it easy to make reliable under a reasonable budget. The cheap analog consoles may not be as reliable, but what about a cheap digital console? It would suffer from many of the same mechanical quality issues but also be more vulnerable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 Yamaha has been making digital consoles for a long time, I'd bet the farm on a PM5D no sweat. I haven't heard any horror stories of the large format Yamaha digital boards. That said, and even reliability aside, I still like to mix in Analog. It's nice knowing exactly where my signal is and where it's going at any given time. Recallable scenes, flying faders, FX on every channel, expandable I/O, integrated recording solutions, smaller frames... those are all tangible features with real-world application, but for me, nothing beats standing at that big purple dinosaur, seeing real-time feedback from all my inputs, verbs, and compression. When analog either is unfeasible or the advantages of digital far outweigh analog at given budget, I'll mix digital no problem. I'm mixing more shows on the iLive and every time I use it I like it a little more. Other than Soundcraft (electrics by Lucas) most manufacturers have managed to make very bullet-proof power supplies. Come to think of it, I've come across more than a few large Soundcraft consoles with blown PSU's. Oftentimes we're wondering why only half the board is lit-up, only to realize the main PSU is down and have to switch to backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 An analog console, even a big one, is a very simple machine. There is input, output and power. All of it easy to make reliable under a reasonable budget. The cheap analog consoles may not be as reliable, but what about a cheap digital console? It would suffer from many of the same mechanical quality issues but also be more vulnerable. Having seen a big analog console freak out with the VCA's going every which way when a bit of rainwater got in, I don't think that analog is any less susceptible. I've also seen a damaged channel module put nasty hash on the PSU rails in an analog console, rendering all the other channels useless as well. Not to downplay the "every egg in one big basket" worries about a digital console, but I do think that the reliability of analog is a bit overstated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dennis a Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 When analog either is unfeasible or the advantages of digital far outweigh analog at given budget, I'll mix digital no problem. I probably do more system tech gigs than I do live sound. The time involved in prepping a large format analog console with it's outboard equipment racks is a tad excessive by the time you have added all of the pieces spec'd by the client, tested them, and tested all of the interconnecting looms. Also, the amount of truck space saved by using digital on monitors as well as FOH is substantial. For me, this outweighs any small risk of equipment failure. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Flogger59 Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 I use both analog and digital. When I plugged into an APB (analog) board for the first time (after years of digital), I had this moment of "I forgot what analog sounds like". Chuck Auguskowski feels that the impression of low end extension on an analog board is due to the limited sampling rate of digital boards. He thinks that digital will catch up to analog in that respect when they start using 200kps and up sampling rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurfu Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 Of course...as long as you kept the string tight....... The twisted pair of wires that feed your home phone can be up to a few miles long before it reaches your central office. Before the days of digital transmission, the entire signal for a long distance call was analog point-to-point and there were amplifiers built into the chain to boost the signal as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 I probably do more system tech gigs than I do live sound. The time involved in prepping a large format analog console with it's outboard equipment racks is a tad excessive by the time you have added all of the pieces spec'd by the client, tested them, and tested all of the interconnecting looms. Also, the amount of truck space saved by using digital on monitors as well as FOH is substantial. For me, this outweighs any small risk of equipment failure. Well, in my case the differences for analog and digital aren't so substantial. All in all it results in one more outboard rack and one more trunk for the snake. Setup time is the same, everything's on multi-pin disconnect... but multi-pin connectors pose their own problems as another possible point of failure. That is of course given a rig that's already prepped and ready to go, as opposed to setting up and testing a rig from scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 20, 2010 Members Share Posted June 20, 2010 Chuck Auguskowski feels that the impression of low end extension on an analog board is due to the limited sampling rate of digital boards. He thinks that digital will catch up to analog in that respect when they start using 200kps and up sampling rates.Chuck is a hell of a nice guy but I'm not buying that. Sample rate does affect the higher frequencies quite a lot but even at 44.1khz is so far above the 100hz range that it can't affect the bass frequencies. I believe a great analog board with low to moderate negative feedback pre's can actually add the "right" kind of harmonic distortion that we perceive as "warmth" and better bass extension - this is basically what my beloved MaxxBass 101 unit does. Digital boards tend to include painfully accurate pre's that add zero "warmth". There is no reason one couldn't include or emulate a "warm" pre on a digital console - some can but are quite limited as to how many fx "units" they have and need one per "virtual preamp" they provide. Don't quote me but I know Chuck has a good grasp of all this and perhaps indulges in a bit of misdirection as to what his designs really have going on in there. A rumored future hybrid board should be a real arse kicker for sure . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted June 27, 2010 Members Share Posted June 27, 2010 I've seen more issues with digitals than analog... Our LS9 bit the dust (literally) after our second show with it. The motorized faders got gritty or stopped working when a Vegas dust storm crept up (and the dolt sound crew didn't find some way to partially lid the darned thing... that's another story). Even a small analog from a brand I don't like was in better shape after the same show (was being used as a breakout mixer on the same system, in the same storm...) We had a PM5D that worked fine for years, then one day when we fired it up to take off any settings that the A1 left on it, it was smoking and didn't work. Yamaha tech support had us take out all the add-on cards and fire it up, it worked fine, a card had gone bad and rendered the entire board useless (and smoking...) Other than a few incidents, though, gear will last pretty well with little abuse, so many times it just came down to that... When I had the hood open on the 5D, it seemed that it would be fairly simple to replace whole sections, if need be, but nothing on individual channels (without a hassle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted June 27, 2010 Members Share Posted June 27, 2010 Forgot about the original post.. We had guys who would swear that you could not go more than 300 feet with copper. The same guys had no issues running our 450 foot main snake at shows... Those were the guys who loved to show that they had all the control software in their laptops, but always asked for my help when they were trying to actually use any of it, and I was just the shop tech.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 27, 2010 Members Share Posted June 27, 2010 Forgot about the original post..We had guys who would swear that you could not go more than 300 feet with copper. The same guys had no issues running our 450 foot main snake at shows... Those were the guys who loved to show that they had all the control software in their laptops, but always asked for my help when they were trying to actually use any of it, and I was just the shop tech.... Bingo... baby!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted June 27, 2010 Members Share Posted June 27, 2010 Bingo... baby!!! Andy, I took a sabbatical or whatever you want to call it when the HC2.0 thing went down. Found out today that it is back to normal! Glad to be back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted June 27, 2010 Members Share Posted June 27, 2010 I took a sabbatical or whatever you want to call it when the HC2.0 thing went down. Found out today that it is back to normal! Glad to be back! Yeah, HC2 was only live for a couple weeks, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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