Members KyleDMastering Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Hey everyone, Some colleagues of mine and I are putting together a charity concert series in our local town and the sound reinforcement is my responsibility. I have a background in the studio environment and doing live sound for friend's bands here and there for many years - but there was never a monitoring situation...usually just a 1X15" two way for mains. Long story short, we've all accumulated alot of gear over the years and have a pretty nice setup put together - Mains, Subs, Monitors, Driverack pa+, DBX 215 graphic eqs etc... that can really make our charity series a success and help the St. Jude's Children fund. My question to all the experts is...After mic and monitor placement, and eq filtering, what else can i do to prevent feedback in my wedges and side fills? I have a pair of dbx 215's for my 4 monitor mixes and I've done some notching with some good results in sound checks @ our studio, however, my concern is that I might be missing something. So I want to know it all about feedback...suppressing it, notching it out...etcetc I thank you all in advance! Kyle D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 I have a pair of dbx 215's for my 4 monitor mixes and I've done some notching with some good results in sound checks @ our studio, however, my concern is that I might be missing something. So I want to know it all about feedback...suppressing it, notching it out...etcetc 15 band EQ's are really inadequate for that job and first learning how to EQ monitors at a big important event is really a bad idea . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Experience, (really) good monitors, proper eq, appropriate (read as not studio type) mics, and a willingness to go along withgood judgement and commen sense (which comes with experience) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Easiest way is also the hardest: control the stage volume so monitors don't need to cause bleeding. If you can do that, gear requirements drop radically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KyleDMastering Posted October 15, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 15 band EQ's are really inadequate for that job and first learning how to EQ monitors at a big important event is really a bad idea . I appreciate your feedback, we'll be doing full rehearsals @ our studio and have several smaller gigs lined up before the first "big" show, so that's why I'm want to get as much info as possible first and work the kinks out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 I appreciate your feedback, we'll be doing full rehearsals @ our studioGet some 31 band GEQ's and do your rehearsals in a room that doesn't have "studio acoustics". Practice with this:http://sft.sourceforge.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mkfs9 Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Also remember no two venues are the same. Experiece will win in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Other small things that help: make sure the vocalist understands they can't be a foot away from the mic, stage volume can be a factor if you're having to turn the mics up to compete with a too-loud guitar amp. Low ceilings or close back walls don't help. Try not to introduce any FX through the monitor mix (if that is even a factor for you) And it's always nice if the singers don't wander all over the stage with the mic. I use a pair of 15 band EQ's on my monitors and they work well enough. I wish I had 31's but it will have to go on the list. If you set your mics and monitors properly, the singers know how to use a mic and the stage volume is no more than necessary, you probably won't need to notch anything out. TW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KyleDMastering Posted October 15, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 I appreciate all the incoming advice guys. The building where our studio is has an empty space that is ANYthing but treated, I'm going to see if we can do it there. (Thanks RR). We do have some good musicians on the bill which will be nice, but you never know with musicians and their mic technique/on stage antics. I was thinking of just having a little FWI/Feedback talk before the show to make sure they know that they have to do their part too! What do you guys think of using one 15band dual for my mains and then getting an extra 31 dual band for the main monitors and getting by with the second 15band dual for the other two monitor mixes? Thanks again...very helpful!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hornplayer Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Other small things that help: make sure the vocalist understands they can't be a foot away from the mic, stage volume can be a factor if you're having to turn the mics up to compete with a too-loud guitar amp. Low ceilings or close back walls don't help. Try not to introduce any FX through the monitor mix (if that is even a factor for you) And it's always nice if the singers don't wander all over the stage with the mic. I use a pair of 15 band EQ's on my monitors and they work well enough. I wish I had 31's but it will have to go on the list. If you set your mics and monitors properly, the singers know how to use a mic and the stage volume is no more than necessary, you probably won't need to notch anything out.TW +1 on what Tomm and others have said. My experience is, if stage volume is under control, monitor feedback takes care of itself. That is, you won't need to turn the monitors up so much as to cause feedback in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 Yeah, buy a 31 band for the more critical monitor mixes and you can get by with the dual 15s for FOH/mix3/4. Also ditch any sidefills, for most of us on the small/med scale and any issue of feedback is a concern don't use them. Go with a straight up wedge mix only. Be prepared to run IEM's here and there. Some bands will have a lead singer that will hand you a box you're supposed to feed a mix to. Basically you just need to be able to do this without tearing apart any racks and repatch quickly when done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted October 15, 2010 Members Share Posted October 15, 2010 I second losing the sidefills, along with keeping the stage volume sensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philw44 Posted October 16, 2010 Members Share Posted October 16, 2010 When people ring out monitors i see a lot of folks and then just whipping it all the way down, or at least about 6dB. This is especially easy to do on EQ's with short throw faders. Find the frequency and bring it down slowly until it stops ringing... You don't want to cut out more than you require. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 16, 2010 Members Share Posted October 16, 2010 When people ring out monitors i see a lot of folks and then just whipping it all the way down, or at least about 6dB. This is especially easy to do on EQ's with short throw faders.Find the frequency and bring it down slowly until it stops ringing... You don't want to cut out more than you require. Bingo... winner advise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 16, 2010 Members Share Posted October 16, 2010 I second losing the sidefills, along with keeping the stage volume sensible. Nothing wrong with sidefills if used correctly. In fact, they can improve perceived volume without relying as heavily on the wedges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KyleDMastering Posted October 17, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2010 Hey Everyone, I'm really thankful on all the helpful responses here. I picked up dual 31band for the more "precise" monitor mixes and I'm considering loosing the side fills. All in all there will be (2) 15" wedges, (2) 12" wedges (each getting 300 watts) and then a powered drum wedge getting 200 watts so I think the need for side fills might have been unnecessary. What worried me was that there's some hip hop acts who wont have a band behind them...just the backing track's they perform to...but I think 1400 watts of rms power should be fine for them Any other tips - keep em coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KyleDMastering Posted October 17, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2010 Nothing wrong with sidefills if used correctly. In fact, they can improve perceived volume without relying as heavily on the wedges. Would you mind elaborating on what you feel correct usage of a side fill is? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted October 17, 2010 Members Share Posted October 17, 2010 Ditto to all the good advice so far. If you are mixing many different types of acts, be sure to give yourself some headroom on the monitors. I usually set them up with the vocal mics almost all at nominal on the aux send knob for each channel, then I turn up the monitors main mix output level up to a point that it is too loud onstage. I ring the wedges out there. This way I know that if the artist really 'needs' more headroom and the stage volume has already been taken care of (backline amps, etc...) that I have enough room to spare on the mix out. Keep in mind, some of these guys are just plain deaf. Years of playing on concert stages means they 'need' an insanely high volume to hear themselves. With Hip Hop artists, be aware that they like it loud (in my experience) and have horrible mic techniques. This all leads to mucho headaches when trying to please these artists.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomm Williams Posted October 17, 2010 Members Share Posted October 17, 2010 One piece of side-related advice, tell the performers to keep their f***ing feet off your monitors. Everytime I work with a Metal or Rap act, I come back with bent speaker screens from the performers standing on them. This is usually young kid bands with little experience who watch too much MTV. I'll usually give one warning and then the monitors come off the stage. Your equipment is too valuable to be abused. Another bad habit of Rappers is they want to point the mic out at the audience. Sometimes it gets pointed right at the monitor and then bad things happen. Have a chat about feedback and it's causes. It might save you from chasing frequencies. It's these very things that make me avoid (or up my prices) on these types of acts. TW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted October 18, 2010 Moderators Share Posted October 18, 2010 What worried me was that there's some hip hop acts who wont have a band behind them...just the backing track's they perform to...but I think 1400 watts of rms power should be fine for them Wouldn't it be better to play the tracks thru sidefields, and use the wedges for the live mics? Also, rappers love to cup the mic. No cure for that. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 19, 2010 Members Share Posted October 19, 2010 Sidefills generally have better bottom end, and are used to fill in, are used to reinforce tracks playback, correct for LF rollaround from the subs, and to provide the equiv. of stage and auditorium walls outdoors. They are also used to up the overall stage volume for shows where loud is good. For RAP, I suggest that you be prepared to get your butt kicked really bad. Don't do those gigs alone, keep an eye on things, don't start a fight that you can't hope to win, have plenty of PA (which I don't think you have), etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dukey Posted October 19, 2010 Members Share Posted October 19, 2010 INHO Rap artists have no mic technique at all - mostly they cup the lower end causing the mic to feedback, sometime they completely surround the basket pointing the mic upside down (You know that's cool because all great rappers on MTV also do it that way-what they forget is that when making a video the artist mostly doesn't sing live but lipsyncing the pre-recorded tracks), they don't control their speech (when using words with a P or a B) it's a worst case scenario for proper mic handling - besides that, I think rap is a complete waste of energy - who'd want to listen to a guy who's rhymin' to otherwise maybe good music. Most rap music is so bass heavy that it's almost impossible to get a decent sound anyway. Just be prepared to get a load of crap because something's not right and they're blaming you for that. I had the same experience a few weeks ago. Most important is to keep stage volume to the lowest possible. Whenever somebody comes up to me and says that they only play through a full stack Marshall which sound good only when driven to 9, I say that they have no idea what they're talking about. In a live band situation where everything's miked a 15w tube amp is more than enough - after all your amp is only needed so the gitarist can hear himself - the rest of the band should hear him through their monitors (as loud as they desire). The lower the stage volume the better your monitormix will be. have funGreetzWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KyleDMastering Posted October 25, 2010 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Hey everyone, Just wanted to thank you all again for all your feedback (no pun intended haha) and knowledge. We've been running rehearsals now for a week and I'm learning alot about feedback just by experience. Thanks Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 25, 2010 Members Share Posted October 25, 2010 Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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