Keyboard Plyr. Wants to Run Stereo Stage Monitors, Film at 11

[GigMan]

Ok I have a Soundcraft MFXi8 mixer - nice piece of equipment. Will run it nxt. weekend to QSC K12's for mains, QSC K10's for floor monitors - as a small PA for vocals, maybe acoustic gtr. and will run my keyboard thru the mains as well... for a small 3 piece set up (keys, gtr. drums).

 

Would like to run keys into the monitors in Stereo - as stereo keys sounds so nice thru the K series, I've used both the K10's and the K12's as a dedicated keyboard rig on various occasions. The MFXi8 mixer has two Aux Sends plus built-in FX, so I could use one K10 for the Aux. send that's panned Left and one K10 for the Right - run one floor monitor as the "Left" channel and the other as the "Right"... run the keys inputs into separate channels, pan hard Left and Right on them - it should work, right?

 

In this configuration I actually create extra work for myself to keep the vocals in "both" monitor channels - as I normally would only use one monitor mix for such a small group set up - but still, if it gives me that great Stereo sound for the keys, it's worth it! Plus if it really sounds good, I can skip bringing a kybd. amp - I have a stereo Motion Sound KP200S (that I'd normally run to the the mixer and put a little in the Mains, not much in the monitors) but it'd be nice to have one less piece of gear to bring.

[lifeloverwg]

Once the drums start up I doubt anyone on stage is going to hear the nuance of stereo keys. Seems to me two separate monitor mixes would be a better use of time and resources. Even stereo in the mains is often wasted effort in many venues. What kind of performance space are you talking about?

 

YMMV, Winston.

[Shaster]

It will work if both aux sends are configured the same - for example both are post aux. Otherwise there will be potentially annoying tone and gain differences.

 

The seduction of on stage stereo sound has tempted many. I can't say it's often worth it, but it's your gear and your gig - have a good one.

[TimmyP]

Only the keyboard player will care. Everyone else just needs to know what the keys are doing. Give the player a set of Grado open air phones with which to listen to his keys. S/he'll be able to hear everything else on stage the same as always.

[Coaster]

ridiculous. i am a keys player and i would never think of doing it stereo. absurd.

[GigMan]

Only the keyboard player will care. Everyone else just needs to know what the keys are doing. Give the player a set of Grado open air phones with which to listen to his keys. S/he'll be able to hear everything else on stage the same as always.

 

yah, that's me, the OP - I'm the kybd. player & I own the PA (at least for this gig), so that's why I'm thinking about it.

 

And it's not for the subtle nuances but more just because the acoustic piano patches (which I rely on ) sound waaay waaaay better in stereo.

 

As for the venue, it's a small bar/restaurant deal and only a 3 piece, pop/rock Motown/R&B stuff - so it won't be too heavy and it will be noticeable, or at least if it is EVER going to be noticeable, this is a gig where it would be noticeable (the difference of running keys thru the monitors in stereo, that is).

[GigMan]

ridiculous. i am a keys player and i would never think of doing it stereo. absurd.

 

Coaster - I respect your right to scoff... - - as I've read many of your posts and I know that you are out there slugging it out in the clubs on the weekends and not sitting home wanking around in your basement - so you probably think running in stereo is a big waste of time and adds extra time, effort and equipment to your load in & tear down routines.

 

- - but I will say this:

I don't know what your rig is (what kybds. you play & thru what amplification) but once you've heard a digital piano or synth thru a stereo setup - either a pair of active PA cabs. (like the QSC K12's, or K10's, JBL EONs or Mackie SRM450's, etc.) or a true Stereo keyboard amp like a Motion Sound KP200S (which I also have) - - there's NO GOING BACK. Stereo keys sounds so much better - and yes, I understand that the audience may not hear the difference or subtle nuances or care or be any where near the "Sweet Spot" of the stereo imaging, or whatever... but it doesn't matter. It's just one of those things - you do it for yourself, if nothing else. Most sounds really pop thru a stereo rig - esp. the acoustic piano samples (I have a Yamaha S90ES, a Roland RD300GX and a Korg Triton Le).

[GigMan]

It will work if both aux sends are configured the same - for example both are post aux. Otherwise there will be potentially annoying tone and gain differences. The seduction of on stage stereo sound has tempted many. I can't say it's often worth it, but it's your gear and your gig - have a good one.

 

Thx Shaster -

I think both Aux Sends on my Soundcraft MFXi8 are pre-fader (although one is switchable to Post-fader as well) - so they should have the exact same level, tone, gain, whatever.

[Majoria]

I can't think of the last time I ran my mains in stereo, even in small rooms.

[Coaster]

Coaster - I respect your right to scoff... - - as I've read many of your posts and I know that you are out there slugging it out in the clubs on the weekends and not sitting home wanking around in your basement - so you probably think running in stereo is a big waste of time and adds extra time, effort and equipment to your load in & tear down routines. - - but I will say this: I don't know what your rig is (what kybds. you play & thru what amplification) but once you've heard a digital piano or synth thru a stereo setup - either a pair of active PA cabs. (like the QSC K12's, or K10's, JBL EONs or Mackie SRM450's, etc.) or a true Stereo keyboard amp like a Motion Sound KP200S (which I also have) - - there's NO GOING BACK. Stereo keys sounds so much better - and yes, I understand that the audience may not hear the difference or subtle nuances or care or be any where near the "Sweet Spot" of the stereo imaging, or whatever... but it doesn't matter. It's just one of those things - you do it for yourself, if nothing else. Most sounds really pop thru a stereo rig - esp. the acoustic piano samples (I have a Yamaha S90ES, a Roland RD300GX and a Korg Triton Le ).

 

and i am saying that in a hostile environment with glass, concrete, loud drums, bass, guitar, vox wedges all at the edge of extreme volume coupled with loud patrons that require a delicate balance of pain/intelligibility with anywhere from 12 kilowatts to 20+kilowatts of FOH that you are lucky enough to get one good signal to hear yourself with and still be able to focus on the other things going on without adding to the messy muck in the environment.

 

not that every night is like that, but i find anything else to be the exception. i run my keyboard through a 75w watt PA amp (rough guess, 125 into 2 ohms so who knows into 8) and a single 15" and no HF horn. i've tried and tried and tried all kinds of things and i keep going back to that. anything with HF horn in it sounds great until you add the above paragraph situation, and then no matter what i do that horn proceeds to rip my head off and damage my ear even if i put the speaker at ear level and turn it down requiring me to run it in all the other wedges causing other problems. so i end up firing the 15" into my chest off an aux on the FOH/MON board sitting right next to me on stage so i can mix some vox into it if needed in some of the more hostile places we play. i never need bass or drums, and NEVER EVER guitar or the timbales behind me but sometimes do need some vox to take cues from the vocals.

 

so do i care about stereo? hell no. i'm happy when i can get one channel good enough to hear myself and not stomp on anyone else, and not rip my face off. of course all i am doing is playing RH lead all night with occasional LH chord stuff, usually pretending to be another inst altogether (guitar leads, accordians etc) which can take both hands to play a single note lead at the speeds required and the style of music we play is almost exclusively improvised form based on audience participation, chop up your typical songs into leads/verses/chorus/bridges/breakdowns and then mix it up on the fly according to how the audience is dancing while figuring out where "the music bus" is going though subtle cues from each other and its a lot to deal with.

 

plus, i provide the PA/mics/wedges and mix all of it, route all of it, make it all work adn run out and check it during the bfreif moments i am not playing.

 

so yeah. one is hard enough.

[Coaster]

 

I can't think of the last time I ran my mains in stereo, even in small rooms.

 

 

i run mains in stereo, separate eq per side. reverbs and FX are stereo, mix is mono.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Stereo keys sounds so much better - and yes, I understand that the audience may not hear the difference or subtle nuances or care or be any where near the "Sweet Spot" of the stereo imaging, or whatever... but it doesn't matter. It's just one of those things - you do it for yourself, if nothing else.

 

 

I'm with you 100% in this regards. I absolutely LOVE sitting in the little stereo field that exists between my two floor wedges when I'm playing my keyboard rig. While I wish and hope that others might hear some of the different - the bottom line for me is that I love how it sounds - and feel more inspired by it.

 

I too provide PA for most of the gigs I play - and virtually always set my rig up in stereo - even though I don't really do much in terms of actively managing the stereo image.

 

My PA (MixWiz, Yamaha Club V Mains and Subs, QSC2450 power amps) is wired for stereo (i.e., MixWiz L/R outputs into L/R Channels on a QSC245). Granted most "mono" inputs get panned to center ... however, keyboard outputs go into a Yamaha MG12/4FX submixer - with each L and R output of each sound engine (CP300, RD700SX and Motif ES Rack unit) going into a dedicated channel on the submixer - panned hard left and hard right. The L and R output of my MG12/4FX submixer go to a dedicated channels on the MixWiz that are panned hard left and hard right.

 

However, rather than running my keyboard stage monitors off the MixWiz - I run the "Group Output" from my MG12/4FX submixer into a QSC1450 that drive a pair of JBL JXR112M floor wedges (yeah, I know JXR....). I run an AUX mix off the MixWiz into a channel on my MG12/4FX that contains the mix of everything else (i.e., vocals, sax, a smidgeon of guitar) that folded into my floor wedges as well. I love my stage sound through this setup. It's clear as a bell and leaves me with headroom to burn. I can't imagine ever going back to my old "keyboard combo amp" days.

 

Yeah ... I lug some extra gear to make it happen. But heck, for the 4 hours of sonic enjoyment I get - it's a small price to pay.

[StratGuy22]

So you have 2 monitors for yourself?

 

Our keys player uses a keyboard amp for themselves, and a monitor for vocals...

[SpaceNorman]

 

So you have 2 monitors for yourself?

 

 

All of my stage monitoring is handled by a pair of JBL JXR wedges - each drive by one channel of a QSC1450 - with program material "mixed" by my keyboard submixer so that it includes the output from each of my keyboard / sound modules (3 sound engines total - 2 channels each) plus an AUX SEND from the FOH board that contains everything else (typical a vocal mix, sax plus a smidge of guitar and bass).

 

I place the wedges on the floor, at a 45 degree angle on the left and right side of my keyboard bench - slightly behind me. I have the best seat in the house in terms of sound - with complete control over my overall stage volume as well as the blend of a "monitor mix" (the AUX SEND I received from the FOH board) and my keyboards.

 

In terms of total speakers/power - it's not much different than having a typical "keyboard amp" for instrument amplification and a wedge for "vocal monitors". I end up with two boxes - each with a 12" and a horn.

[GigMan]

I'm with you 100% in this regards. I absolutely LOVE sitting in the little stereo field that exists between my two floor wedges when I'm playing my keyboard rig. While I wish and hope that others might hear some of the different - the bottom line for me is that I love how it sounds - and feel more inspired by it. I too provide PA for most of the gigs I play - and virtually always set my rig up in stereo - even though I don't really do much in terms of actively managing the stereo image. My PA (MixWiz, Yamaha Club V Mains and Subs, QSC2450 power amps) is wired for stereo (i.e., MixWiz L/R outputs into L/R Channels on a QSC245). Granted most "mono" inputs get panned to center ... however, keyboard outputs go into a Yamaha MG12/4FX submixer - with each L and R output of each sound engine (CP300, RD700SX and Motif ES Rack unit) going into a dedicated channel on the submixer - panned hard left and hard right. The L and R output of my MG12/4FX submixer go to a dedicated channels on the MixWiz that are panned hard left and hard right. However, rather than running my keyboard stage monitors off the MixWiz - I run the "Group Output" from my MG12/4FX submixer into a QSC1450 that drive a pair of JBL JXR112M floor wedges (yeah, I know JXR....). I run an AUX mix off the MixWiz into a channel on my MG12/4FX that contains the mix of everything else (i.e., vocals, sax, a smidgeon of guitar) that folded into my floor wedges as well. I love my stage sound through this setup. It's clear as a bell and leaves me with headroom to burn. I can't imagine ever going back to my old "keyboard combo amp" days. Yeah ... I lug some extra gear to make it happen. But heck, for the 4 hours of sonic enjoyment I get - it's a small price to pay.

 

SpaceNorman! Great to hear from you - I knew there was another kybd. plyr. running in stereo here somewhere... I haven't posted this issue on the Keys, Synths and Samplers forum yet - but there's not that many live players there...

 

But from what you've described, it sounds like you are running the main PA in stereo but your kybd. rig is NOT - even though you have two physical spkr. cabinets surrounding you... ie, just because you're sending a stereo signal of your keys to the Mains - when you feed it back into your monitoring system by running the "Group Output" from my MG12/4FX submixer... that's not really Stereo, is it?

[GigMan]

and i am saying that in a hostile environment with glass, concrete, loud drums, bass, guitar, vox wedges all at the edge of extreme volume coupled with loud patrons that require a delicate balance of pain/intelligibility with anywhere from 12 kilowatts to 20+kilowatts of FOH that you are lucky enough to get one good signal to hear yourself with and still be able to focus on the other things going on without adding to the messy muck in the environment. not that every night is like that, but i find anything else to be the exception. i run my keyboard through a 75w watt PA amp (rough guess, 125 into 2 ohms so who knows into 8) and a single 15" and no HF horn. i've tried and tried and tried all kinds of things and i keep going back to that. anything with HF horn in it sounds great until you add the above paragraph situation, and then no matter what i do that horn proceeds to rip my head off and damage my ear even if i put the speaker at ear level and turn it down requiring me to run it in all the other wedges causing other problems. so i end up firing the 15" into my chest off an aux on the FOH/MON board sitting right next to me on stage so i can mix some vox into it if needed in some of the more hostile places we play. i never need bass or drums, and NEVER EVER guitar or the timbales behind me but sometimes do need some vox to take cues from the vocals. so do i care about stereo? hell no. i'm happy when i can get one channel good enough to hear myself and not stomp on anyone else, and not rip my face off. of course all i am doing is playing RH lead all night with occasional LH chord stuff, usually pretending to be another inst altogether (guitar leads, accordians etc) which can take both hands to play a single note lead at the speeds required and the style of music we play is almost exclusively improvised form based on audience participation, chop up your typical songs into leads/verses/chorus/bridges/breakdowns and then mix it up on the fly according to how the audience is dancing while figuring out where "the music bus" is going though subtle cues from each other and its a lot to deal with. plus, i provide the PA/mics/wedges and mix all of it, route all of it, make it all work adn run out and check it during the bfreif moments i am not playing. so yeah. one is hard enough.

 

I totally see your point, Coaster - in that environment I wouldn't bother either... but for my gig this coming Saturday where I want to try this "stereo monitors" trick - it's much different situation: a 3 piece band (keys, gtr. & drums) in a small bar area of a restaurant - no bass player. I have another gig in April that will be similar configuration & it's a retirement banquet, so even more laid back & even more opportunity to hear the nice stereo keys thru "stereo monitors"

[SpaceNorman]

 

...But from what you've described, it sounds like you are running the main PA in stereo but your kybd. rig is NOT - even though you have two physical spkr. cabinets surrounding you... ie, just because you're sending a stereo signal of your keys to the Mains - when you feed it back into your monitoring system by running the "Group Output" from my MG12/4FX submixer... that's not really Stereo, is it?

 

 

I believe that in my setup - it really is stereo (to the extent that the keyboard patches are really created to be a stereo signal source). It lefts the keyboard as Left and Right Channels. It's connected to the board in seperate channels (panned hard left and hard right respectively). The board puts it onto the Main buss and the Group Out buss - both of which have discrete left and right channel outputs - which are in turn connected to left and right channels of an amplifier out to two seperate speaker cabinets.

 

When I call up patches like some of the heavily effected e-pianos that obviously make use of two channels like that slow panning tremelo effect - the sound "travels" between the two monitor wedges - and from where I'm sitting it sure as heck sounds stereo.

 

While I've read some pretty esoteric explanations about what constitutes true stereo in some of the other forums that have left me scratching my head - I'm pretty certain that because my setup maintains two discrete channels from signal source to speaker, my stage monitor setup is stereo.

[Bugzie]

I rent a keyboard rig out a couple of times a month. I use a Traynor K4 keyboard amp as the players monitor with a pair of HPR122i's for front of house. The traynor puts out a stereo signal for about 6 feet then dies quickly, but more than one keyboardist has mentioned how nice it was to be able to hear the keys in stereo. FYI its a biamped unit with seperate right and left tweets and mids and a summed mono low end. Seperate R/L inputs and DI'd R/L outputs.

A B3/Leslie patch will be extremely noticable on any decent set of keys today when played in "stereo."

[MickeyKeys]

 

I rent a keyboard rig out a couple of times a month. I use a Traynor K4 keyboard amp as the players monitor with a pair of HPR122i's for front of house. The traynor puts out a stereo signal for about 6 feet then dies quickly, but more than one keyboardist has mentioned how nice it was to be able to hear the keys in stereo. FYI its a biamped unit with seperate right and left tweets and mids and a summed mono low end. Seperate R/L inputs and DI'd R/L outputs. A B3/Leslie patch will be extremely noticable on any decent set of keys today when played in "stereo."

 

 

One of the venues I've been playing is large enough that I can do the exact same thing. I use my K4 to monitor the keys and the stereo DI outputs go to FOH.

It is sweet to hear and I do get compliments, so add my thumbs-up to this one.

 

The rest of the time the K4's on the backline, where it's no slouch either.

[mshifflett]

And it's not for the subtle nuances but more just because the acoustic piano patches (which I rely on ) sound waaay waaaay better in stereo.

 

At one point I would have done the same. We all use IEM and I have to admit the stereo piano patches sound great in our stereo-mix in ear monitors. I went to a lot of trouble for a long time doing it that way, even as far as having FOH in stereo as well. Both keyboards were ran in stereo, as well as the microphones on my Leslie cabinet. What I learned very quickly that once it made it out to FOH that the stereo made little difference, if any.

 

So, if you have the time to do the monitor mix the way you want it, then do it. Just don't base your decision on a better sounding FOH

[Strenge]

I'm not a pro by any means, I'll say that up front. I think my boards (and softsynths when I bother to bring the laptop) sound much much better in stereo...but the few gigs I've played since I started up playing again have all been mono. So my worry is this: when coming up with sounds and trying to normalize patches, the end result may be very different in mono. I've had some patches "cancel out" to some extent when put in mono, because they were programmed (fx and/or dual sounds) to play with hard panning. So at the least I try to make sure they patches sound good in mono.

[Gordon Sound]

You have a keyboard amp - bring it!

[GigMan]

You have a keyboard amp - bring it!

 

If the stereo monitor thing works - I won't have to! - - one less piece of gear to lug, you know...

 

Besides, two active PA cabinets - like my QSC K10's or the K12's - almost always sound better than one kybd. amp, even a nice stereo one like my Motion Sound KP200S... it's just a fact.

[Stingray5]

If the stereo monitor thing works - I won't have to! - - one less piece of gear to lug, you know... Besides, two active PA cabinets - like my QSC K10's or the K12's - almost always sound better than one kybd. amp, even a nice stereo one like my Motion Sound KP200S... it's just a fact.

I have to agree here my best friend is a keyboard player, we have played a lot of music together, stereo does sound fatter. PS. The last band I was in, the sound guy told me that a band ask them why they sounded bad, his answer, they were running mono(Good Greif)!!

[GigMan]

Well - I had the gig last night where I wanted to run stereo monitors - but I didn't... because I couldn't... because I have all active cabinets for mains and monitors (a pair of QSC K12's and a pair of the K10's), which all require power - and I was short one pwr. cord!

 

I had been laying out the pwr. cords for the QSC K10's in the bsmt. to "unkink" them (I only got the K10's a couple mos. ago) and forgot to pack them into the pockets on the side of the padded bags.

 

So I only ran one monitor and lived with it.

 

I will say this: even though powered/active PA speakers do sound great take the guess work out of matching up the spkr. cabinet to the proper amplification, they actually complicate things quite a bit when you're at the gig:

 

I accidentally hit the Line/Mic. switch into "Mic." position and the K12's built-in DSP must've kicked in, sensing there was an overload (I was putting keyboards, vocals thru them) and then I got no sound at all - couldn't figure out why 'til end of the night when I was taking the spkrs. down from the stands an saw the Line/Mic. switch in Mic position...