OT: Tablesaw technology

[sailorman]

I have a workshop. I'm VERY careful with all tools power or otherwise, NEVER hurry and stop working if I'm tired. The guard stays on my tablesaw, unless it needs to be removed (dadoes, etc.), then it goes back on. I still get surprised from time to time and feel that no matter how careful I am, mistakes get made or inexperience causes a costly mistake; no one was born knowing how to do everything.

When I was in junior high school in the 60's, I stayed after school to work on a project in wood shop. The teacher was cutting something for me on the bandsaw; he said to never, ever reach behind the blade. 30 seconds later, he does that very thing and cut his thumb half way through the bone ; nauseating sound. To this day I get nervous around my bandsaw, and I think that incident has made me careful as hell ever since.

That said, if I do cut something off, it's my fault not the saw's. But, if you live in America, nothing bad is ever supposed to happen to you and, if it does, someone has to pay you for it, so off to court we go.

[IsildursBane]

 

i do think that in the mcdonalds case the settlement should have been only for lost wages/hospital bills and that is all. 18k vs the near 600k she actually got. ridiculous.

 

 

That was all she asked for in the beginning, and McD's told her to take a hike.

 

The big payout was from the punitive damages that the jury decided to levy against McDonald's because they acted recklessly. If a big corporation like that is doing something wrong, the only way for a punishment actually have any deterring effect is for it to be huge. Otherwise, it's cheaper for them to just continue to paying fines. $18K is roughly the gross revenue of one store for one day. That's a rounding error for McD's.

 

-Dan.

[badhabit]

The guard jamming is not dangerous. I have made that cut hundreds of times with no issue. The guard lever is there to take care of situations like that and plunge cuts, etc. I have no problem with modifying tools as needed but there is never a situation that requires the guard to be wedged back on a Skil 77. That tool is perfect as is.

 

 

The only difference is with the guard pinned up, one starts the cut with the saw in place and resting securely against the fence, if one is using a fence. In practical terms, it is the same as lifting the guard lever out of the way, except when it's pinned up, you have an extra hand to steady the saw, hold stock, whatever. When the cut is finished, one releases the trigger and allows the blade to come to a complete rest before moving the saw. This is no different than when using the guard. The ONLY difference is the guard will spring back over the blade should the user FORGET to wait for the blade to come to a complete stop. So, IMO, there is no difference in the safety guard feature of the model 77 when used by an experienced person, since one is exposing the blade either by pinning the guard back or lifting the guard lever up. You can espouse your "hundreds of cuts" and I'll raise you my 30+ years as a pro carpenter. In the end, it's what you know works for you. And I never said the guard jamming was dangerous. I said the guard was in the way of making a precise cut. And it is, because in your explanation, one still needs to raise it out of the way. It's how one accomplishes that is what we are disagreeing over. I say, for the experienced user, pinning the guard up works better to get a precise cut, as one can use the spare hand to steady the saw as well.

[Cpt.Pike]

...it is safer to pin the guard up so the saw cuts without the guard jamming up...

 

 

How exactly is it safer? It may be easier for you to get a decent cut, but safer?

 

Use your saw however you are most comfortable. For me, and the vast majority of others, simply holding the guard up for a second while starting a cut will continue to be the preferred method.

[badhabit]

For me, and the vast majority of others

Which "vast majority" would that be? The vast majority of novices?

Well, it's true that due to OSHA crackdown, less carpenters nowdays are pinning their guards back onsite, but it was, and still is in many circles, the preferred way of keeping that ill-designed guard out of the way.

 

 

How exactly is it safer?

 

 

If the guard is not binding or hangup on a fence ( which is common ), the saw will operate better and be easier to control. Even a novice like yourself should appreciate that. Does a reciprocating ( Sawzall ) saw have a guard on it ? Jig saw ? Band Saw ? No, you learn to use the tool safely. Same with a Skilsaw.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

The only difference is with the guard pinned up, one starts the cut with the saw in place and resting securely against the fence, if one is using a fence. In practical terms, it is the same as lifting the guard lever out of the way, except when it's pinned up, you have an extra hand to steady the saw, hold stock, whatever. When the cut is finished, one releases the trigger and allows the blade to come to a complete rest before moving the saw. This is no different than when using the guard. The ONLY difference is the guard will spring back over the blade should the user FORGET to wait for the blade to come to a complete stop. So, IMO, there is no difference in the safety guard feature of the model 77 when used by an experienced person, since one is exposing the blade either by pinning the guard back or lifting the guard lever up.

 

 

I disagree. With the guard pinned back, it will not do its job of protecting the user in the event of a kickback *during* the cut. Even if I only have one hand free to make the cut, should the saw kick back, I won't be able to hold the guard back; it'll close as the saw leaves the cut. Your way, the blade remains exposed the entire time, and even with two hands on the saw, that '77 has enough balls to beat you in a kickback.

 

The little handle is specifically there to allow the user to hold it back. That's only needed at the very start of the cut. As soon as the guard rides over the wood, you can let go. That's within 4 inches of the cut, so the rear of the blade isn't engaged in the kerf yet. Without the rear of the blade in contact, no kickback force exists.

[Craig Vecchione]

I have a workshop. I'm VERY careful with all tools power or otherwise, NEVER hurry and stop working if I'm tired. The guard stays on my tablesaw, unless it needs to be removed (dadoes, etc.), then it goes back on. I still get surprised from time to time and feel that no matter how careful I am, mistakes get made or inexperience causes a costly mistake; no one was born knowing how to do everything. When I was in junior high school in the 60's, I stayed after school to work on a project in wood shop. The teacher was cutting something for me on the bandsaw; he said to never, ever reach behind the blade. 30 seconds later, he does that very thing and cut his thumb half way through the bone ; nauseating sound. To this day I get nervous around my bandsaw, and I think that incident has made me careful as hell ever since.

 

Ironically, I have always viewed my bandsaw as one of the safer tools in my shop. Yeah, it'll cut you, but it's much less likely to take something off completely.

 

I'm curious though; how did he cut himself by reaching *behind* the blade? While his hand was reaching? It sounds as if he also violated Rule #1 of bandsaw use: Always lower the guide to just above work height. Give yourself enough view to cut, but keep the ting down. The balde works better, is much less likely to break, and the exposed part is less than the tickness of a finger, so you have to really try hard to get one in there.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I read a story about an elderly lady that bought a brand new Winnebago. She was driving down an interstate and put it in cruise control. She then decided she was going to go make a sandwich. The motorhome obviously went off the road and flipped over. She sued Winnebago because the owners manual didnt specify that cruise control didnt steer the vehicle. Of course she won the law-suit.   EDIT: I apparently had the story slightly wrong. Here is what happened:

[Redbassman86]

 

This never happened. http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp

 

 

I KNEW IT!

[Craig Vecchione]

What actually happened was that a saw was provided to a new employee, with poor training and little supervision, and an accident occurred. To put full responsibility on the accident victim is a little much IMO. He was freehanding a cut (fence-less) which takes a little more than a few weeks experience to do safely. Seems like the employer was most responsible. My WC insurance man often brings up Saw Stop in our conversations, though there is currently no discount offered for using it. I will buy one if I ever need to replace one of the cabinet saws I have. To me the extra safety is worth any of the hassles involved.

 

OSHA handles work safety issues in the US. The guy makes one anonymous call, and someone is knocking on the door to do a "spot inspection" of the shop. I've been there, and done that, in cases of safety that were even more egregious than this one.

 

But the responsibility for that guy's safety lies in his hands (no pun). If you aren't trained, you learn. RTFM. It tells you about 6 thousand times that the blade is dangerous, and will cut you and sever body parts. It tells you to never remove the blade guard for exposed cuts, and to exercise extreme caution and use pushsticks for cuts that require the removal of the guard. If you are earning a living cutting wood on a saw, learn how to use the {censored}ing tool!!!

[Coaster]

 

I'm curious though; how did he cut himself by reaching *behind* the blade?

 

 

probably the same way i bunged up my index finger on my router bit - reached past the blade with his other fingers and the other digit went were it went - in his case and mine into the moving blade. definitely a dumb move

[sailorman]

Ironically, I have always viewed my bandsaw as one of the safer tools in my shop. Yeah, it'll cut you, but it's much less likely to take something off completely. I'm curious though; how did he cut himself by reaching *behind* the blade? While his hand was reaching? It sounds as if he also violated Rule #1 of bandsaw use: Always lower the guide to just above work height. Give yourself enough view to cut, but keep the ting down. The balde works better, is much less likely to break, and the exposed part is less than the tickness of a finger, so you have to really try hard to get one in there.

 

 

I'd agree, it's one of the safer tools; in my case, that experience when I was just a kid left a permanent mark.

 

The shop teacher was helping me make a small foot stool/seat. The seat was shaped by standing a 2" x 12" blank on it's edge, and cutting the profile with the band saw. Students weren't allowed to do it, only the teacher. The blade guard had to be raised over 12" to make the cut. He reached behind the blade to remove a piece of cutoff from the table. His thumb hit the blade. He ran out of the shop, obviously in intense pain, leaving me to hit the stop switch. He did tell the story the next day in shop class, making his point by holding up his heavily bandaged thumb.

 

I think that accident happened due to performing a repetitive task; makes you careless. I stopped riding a motorcycle to work because, due to it becoming routine, my mind would wander and I wouldn't pay the attention necessary to be safe on a bike (vs. a car). I try to rotate tasks in the shop, to prevent that.

[agedhorse]

Just measured my morning coffee, was 175 deg F. Should this be illegal? Hell no, I should be responsible enough to drink an "adult" beverage if I choose to accept the risk that hot coffee is in fact actually hot. Luke warm coffee would be misrepresenting the product AND it's intended application.

The most dangerous tool in the shop? How about a vote for the radial arm saw? The blade moves toward you during a cut!

[imnotded]

 

The most dangerous tool in the shop? How about a vote for the radial arm saw? The blade moves toward you during a cut!

 

 

I would bet more people get hurt a year from a hammer than any saw. Sure the injury might not (probably not even in the same league) as bad, but it hurts to hit your finger with a hammer!

[Coaster]

actually my worst injuries have been with a flat screwdriver. they can slip and you impale yourself.

[Phil Clark]

 

Maybe the wiki article is biased or inaccurate, but I felt a lot more sympathetic towards the plaintiff in the McDonald's coffee thing after reading it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

 

 

 

Oh, I definitely feel sympathetic towards the plaintiff. I was just using it as the example of the nationally publicized lawsuit that seems to have caused a major explosion of what in many cases are frivolous lawsuits. I firmly believe that there should be heavy fines and/or jail time levied against people who file frivolous lawsuits. Things like suing for falling in a store, and the fall was caused by tripping over your own children.

 

Or if you drop a bottle of olive oil and then slip on it, getting hurt in the process.... that is your own damn fault and you should not only have to pay for the oil, but also pay for any injuries from other slipping on it, and have to pay for it to be cleaned up.

 

It's just called accountability.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Just measured my morning coffee, was 175 deg F. Should this be illegal? Hell no, I should be responsible enough to drink an "adult" beverage if I choose to accept the risk that hot coffee is in fact actually hot. Luke warm coffee would be misrepresenting the product AND it's intended application.

 

 

Agreed! Of course, now McD's has the really important labeling on their coffee cups: "CAUTION: Hot coffee is hot"

 

Yeah, that'll stop an idiot with a lawyer...

[Craig Vecchione]

 

actually my worst injuries have been with a flat screwdriver. they can slip and you impale yourself.

 

 

1. Radial arm saw. Will never have one of those abominations. Not only are they dangerous, they're a PITA to use.

 

2. Hammers. Um, yeah, I can state with due embarrassment that I've done considerable bodily damage to myself with these.

 

3. Screwdrivers. Yep. Well, in my case it wasn't a flat blade that injured me, but a philips, and it wasn't handheld, exactly. I was driving a long wood screw into a very short sill plate on my shop floor (whilst building the shop) with a driver bit in a corded drill. At that time I had become quite used to a cordless drill, and the extra power was a bit underestimated. I was holding down the short 2x4 with one hand, and the drill/driver/screw was in the other. The drill started (well, I started it) and promptly jumped out of the screwhead, and plunged the #2 bit (with all my weight pushing against it)....straight down through my right thumbnail. The blood actually spurt up into my left eye. I nearly passed out from the pain and jumping up in reflex, and then wished I had. That hurt more than anything I'd done to myself. Stupid? Yep. My fault? Yep. Did I sue DeWalt for failing to make a drill that wouldn't plunge a phillips bit into my thumb when I pulled a dumbass move? Nope.

[Cpt.Pike]

OSHA handles work safety issues in the US. The guy makes one anonymous call, and someone is knocking on the door to do a "spot inspection" of the shop. I've been there, and done that, in cases of safety that were even more egregious than this one. But the responsibility for that guy's safety lies in his hands (no pun). If you aren't trained, you learn. RTFM. It tells you about 6 thousand times that the blade is dangerous, and will cut you and sever body parts. It tells you to never remove the blade guard for exposed cuts, and to exercise extreme caution and use pushsticks for cuts that require the removal of the guard. If you are earning a living cutting wood on a saw, learn how to use the {censored}ing tool!!!

 

 

OSHA fines the employer not the employee. Clearly the responsibility for providing a safe work place lies with the employer. Yes, a smart person would take it upon themselves to make sure they don't hurt/kill themselves at work by doing all the things you mentioned. Unfortunately there is a large population of idiots out there that are incapable of teaching themselves. Even worse are the guys who egotistically reject safety measures and usually end up injuring others, instead of themselves, with their foolishness. They need extra supervision.

 

Regardless, it is baffling how Ryobi was found to have manufactured a defective tool because it lacked a brake. The common analogy is that inexpensive cars are all defective because they lack the safety features that are available with a Mercedes. Crazy.

 

The blade brake will become a standard feature on table saws. The pressure on manufactures from UL, the CPSC, and insurers will see to that. The device does work extremely well.

[gspointer]

Most of my injuries have been minor and caused by safety wire. Scariest tool is my chainsaw. Worst accidents I have seen were in a restaurant. The worst I have seen in a shop were with a torch, and an angle grinder with the guard removed.

[lifeloverwg]

Most of my injuries have been minor and caused by safety wire. Scariest tool is my chainsaw. Worst accidents I have seen were in a restaurant. The worst I have seen in a shop were with a torch, and an angle grinder with the guard removed.

I'm trying to picture how someone uses a torch and an angle grinder at the same time...... I guess they could have been separate accidents.

The worst almost really bad accident I've experienced happened on my watch. I used to teach a three day jewelry making class at a local private High School. I limited the class to 15 students thinking I could keep track of that many but no more along with the mostly absent teacher/helper. On day two one of the more talented and attractive young ladies was soldering her ring with a disposable propane plumbers torch who's seal had just been loosened by the previous user when the leaking cloud of propane fumes ignited.

I was across the room when I heard the whoomp and turned to see her engulfed in a ball of flames and watch her toss the still lit torch across the room into the corner. I chose to let the torch go and instead ran to put out the fire on her head. Luckily she had heeded my class requirements of wearing smooth weave natural fiber clothing and having her long hair tied back, but all the loose ends on the top and side of her long curly red head went up in smoke along with her eyelashes and eyebrows despite the safety glasses. Another kid had the presence of mind to calmly turn off the still burning torch before anything more went amiss.

The young lady was understandably totally freaked out, but after being examined by the school nurse she was declared unhurt. Although she did cry for a while when she realized she had lost her eyebrows and lashes. I was nearly as freaked out as she was even once the adrenalin wore off as I envisioned angry suing parents descending despite the signed waivers. I politely declined to teach any more workshops in subsequent years.

Winston

[gspointer]

I'm trying to picture how someone uses a torch and an angle grinder at the same time...... I guess they could have been separate accidents. The worst almost really bad accident I've experienced happened on my watch. I used to teach a three day jewelry making class at a local private High School. I limited the class to 15 students thinking I could keep track of that many but no more along with the mostly absent teacher/helper. On day two one of the more talented and attractive young ladies was soldering her ring with a disposable propane plumbers torch who's seal had just been loosened by the previous user when the leaking cloud of propane fumes ignited. I was across the room when I heard the whoomp and turned to see her engulfed in a ball of flames and watch her toss the still lit torch across the room into the corner. I chose to let the torch go and instead ran to put out the fire on her head. Luckily she had heeded my class requirements of wearing smooth weave natural fiber clothing and having her long hair tied back, but all the loose ends on the top and side of her long curly red head went up in smoke along with her eyelashes and eyebrows despite the safety glasses. Another kid had the presence of mind to calmly turn off the still burning torch before anything more went amiss. The young lady was understandably totally freaked out, but after being examined by the school nurse she was declared unhurt. Although she did cry for a while when she realized she had lost her eyebrows and lashes. I was nearly as freaked out as she was even once the adrenalin wore off as I envisioned angry suing parents descending despite the signed waivers. I politely declined to teach any more workshops in subsequent years. Winston

To clarify a bit. (I was on my phone earlier) Seperate incidents. Dont know how the angle grinder guy did it, but he was cleaning up a frame and somehow the grinder kicked back and caught him in the eyelid/eyebrow area, chewed him up pretty good. Second dude was laying under a truck cutting the frame and had a piece of slag go in his ear, for some reason he tried to knock it out and loosened his grip on the torch a bit, it turned across his chest, pretty nasty burn.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

OSHA fines the employer not the employee. Clearly the responsibility for providing a safe work place lies with the employer. Yes, a smart person would take it upon themselves to make sure they don't hurt/kill themselves at work by doing all the things you mentioned. Unfortunately there is a large population of idiots out there that are incapable of teaching themselves. Even worse are the guys who egotistically reject safety measures and usually end up injuring others, instead of themselves, with their foolishness. They need extra supervision. Regardless, it is baffling how Ryobi was found to have manufactured a defective tool because it lacked a brake. The common analogy is that inexpensive cars are all defective because they lack the safety features that are available with a Mercedes. Crazy. The blade brake will become a standard feature on table saws. The pressure on manufactures from UL, the CPSC, and insurers will see to that. The device does work extremely well.

 

 

Oh yes, I know quite well how OSHA operates in shop safety issues. As I wrote, been there and done that. Responsibility for providing a safe workplace lies with the employer. There's no evidence in what we have about the Ryobi guy to know whether the saw didn't have a guard, or that the guy removed it. It's rather hard to believe that the saw came without one. I've never seen a saw in the last 30 years that didn't. But at any rate, again...if there was missing gear and the employer won't provide it, or insists it not be used...one call does it all.

 

It's not really baffling to see a large corporation found negligent by a jury of idiots. People love to hate corporations, and love to award ridiculous sums to people as stupid as they for doing things as stupid as we've read about.

[Craig Vecchione]

To clarify a bit. (I was on my phone earlier) Seperate incidents. Dont know how the angle grinder guy did it, but he was cleaning up a frame and somehow the grinder kicked back and caught him in the eyelid/eyebrow area, chewed him up pretty good. Second dude was laying under a truck cutting the frame and had a piece of slag go in his ear, for some reason he tried to knock it out and loosened his grip on the torch a bit, it turned across his chest, pretty nasty burn.

 

I'll go out on a limb and guess he wanted to stop the intense pain. I'll also guess that the torch cutting into his chest made him forget about the pain in his ear!

[gspointer]

I'll go out on a limb and guess he wanted to stop the intense pain. I'll also guess that the torch cutting into his chest made him forget about the pain in his ear!

yeah, but he had been doing it for enough years it kind of surprised me that he reacted to it. I had slag in my ears, down my shirt in my gloves etc. After a couple of months you start to ignore it. It always seemed like it had cooled by the time you knocked it out. And I am certain he forgot about his ear instantly. That was a full on cutting torch straight across his chest, ugly. He is also the best welder I know, and a show winning car and bike builder. Great dude, great drummer and one of my best friends for years.