Yamaha 512 Powered Mixer with pair of PR12's and pair of PR15's

[twostone]

 

Well this will be a stupid question but if I went that route, how does this work... do I set the volume/gain on each powered speaker to 100% and control volume/gain from mixer? What about the EQ on each powered speaker... do it set it all flat/netral and control it from the mixer? I haven't opened the mixer box or my two PR12's yet... I can return them. The PR15's I did open but I have 30 days satisfaction guarantee and can return those as well.

 

 

Yea just set the speaker knob at unity which will be mentioned in the manual and yea the channel strip EQ is sufficient enough.

I know a few bands that just use the channel strip EQ. What are you planning on using this set up for?

[GCDEF]

 

Well this will be a stupid question but if I went that route, how does this work... do I set the volume/gain on each powered speaker to 100% and control volume/gain from mixer? What about the EQ on each powered speaker... do it set it all flat/netral and control it from the mixer? I haven't opened the mixer box or my two PR12's yet... I can return them. The PR15's I did open but I have 30 days satisfaction guarantee and can return those as well.

 

 

Powered speakers will typically have a "unity" volume, which will be marked as 0 on the volume knob and will usually be between 50 and 75% of the way up. Start with the volume on the speakers there and adjust at the mixer just as you normally would.

 

No need to be afraid of used gear particularly. I bought powered speakers about three years ago for $300 each that were $750 new. They have well over 200 shows on them since I got them without a hiccup.

 

Carvin has these at 27 pounds too. No idea if they're any good or not but they're probably decent for the money.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=LM12A

[anadaboy]

Typically, two electric guitars and vocals... sometimes a trumpet through a mic... very rarely a bass player joins in. never any drums.

 

But I am getting some outdoor gigs as well.

[abzurd]

I was afraid you're answer would be what it was. The conversation that's ensued is a good one. You can certainly get use out of what you bought, however, you'd be better served with a single pair of higher quality mains and a passive mixer. The RCF 312A was a great suggestion. A pair would run $900, leaving $200 for a mixer, which admittedly isn't going to get you much. A Yamaha MG166CX Mixer W/ FX is around $386. That's probably the starting point in a small mixer. Or something like a Peavey PV14 at $299 may work for you too.

[anadaboy]

I don't have a problem going up a few hundred if I need to. I guess I don't understand the advantage of it. Also, isn't that considerably less power? If so, is that enough for outdoors? Say, 100 x 150 feet? 100-150 people?

[RoadRanger]

considerably less power? If so, is that enough for outdoors?

What is "that"?

Say, 100 x 150 feet?

That's a pretty big area if you are talking "concert level".

100-150 people?

That's about what PR12D's would cover with no bass. The RCF 310A's or 312A's would cover 200. Both considerably more at "background" or "easy listening" level.

[GCDEF]

 

I don't have a problem going up a few hundred if I need to. I guess I don't understand the advantage of it. Also, isn't that considerably less power? If so, is that enough for outdoors? Say, 100 x 150 feet? 100-150 people?

 

 

Your budget is pretty unrealistic for anything but background music outdoors. The suggestions are for the best you can do with such a serious limitation. $2,000 or a little more will buy you a pair of good powered speakers and a workable mixer.

 

Not really sure what the "that" is that you're referring to, but remember quality will beat quantity pretty much every time. Two good speakers will serve you much better than 4 bottom feeders, and you'll almost always get more power from powered speakers than a powered mixer.

[anadaboy]

Aug 14 I have a gig booked, outdoors on a raised stage for about 150 people. I imagine the area where they'll be sitting would be about 100x150 feet. That's just a guess on the size. We don't need super volume like a full rock band, just need to be heard.

[anadaboy]

Most of our other outdoor gigs are background music while people dine, don't cover much ground at all, just really like an outdoor patio and we play soft.

 

This is the largest event for us, prompted me to upgrade our pa. In the past I've used a Roland SA-300. I love the thing but will switch to this new PA even for thos 'light duty jobs' and sell my beloved Roland SA-300.

[RoadRanger]

Aug 14 I have a gig booked, outdoors on a raised stage for about 150 people. I imagine the area where they'll be sitting would be about 100x150 feet. That's just a guess on the size. We don't need super volume like a full rock band, just need to be heard.

A person takes about 6 square feet so 100x150 can fit 2500 . About 8 kilowatts for the tops and 32 kilowatts for the subs would cover that at concert SPL .

[twostone]

 

I don't have a problem going up a few hundred if I need to. I guess I don't understand the advantage of it. Also, isn't that considerably less power? If so, is that enough for outdoors? Say, 100 x 150 feet? 100-150 people?

 

 

One advantage is the re-sale value with quality gear is way better ? not to mention sound quality to.

Those passive PR cabs don't bring much in the used market since their Peavey low budget speaker cabs.

Plus you can expand.

You say already expanding now what if you decide to add a drummer later on?

you already got the mains just a matter of adding a sub or 2 later on.

[lifeloverwg]

Buy your PA based on what you need for most of your gigs, not for one show. I too think powered speakers and a passive mixer is the smart way to go. I also think you may well be just fine for this larger outdoor gig you have booked with two decent mains, but that depends on your expectations. Say you can run your new pair of speakers at 120dB at 1 meter pretty much all day with out worrying about damaging them. For every doubling of distance from the source you lose 6dB of SPL.

 

1m=120dB

2m=114dB

4m=98dB This is pretty loud, but people don't have to shout to be heard over it, just put their heads close together.

8m=92dB

16m=86dB

32m=80dB Now your'e out past 100' and it's not very loud at all, but good for background music. If people want it louder than that they have to move closer.

 

I would imagine that if they are hiring a mostly acoustic act, then they probably aren't looking for rock concert levels anyway. I would just make sure the bass player brings a decent sized rig and make it carry the heavy load of the bass and leave the mains for vocals and the other instruments.

 

Good luck, Winston.

[anadaboy]

Wow... I have to tell you I'm floored by this whole concept... way more to this than I ever would have imagined. I really did try to do my homework before I purchased anything. A Guitar Center salesman was telling me the Yammie EX512 was 500 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 750 at 4. I knew that wasn't because I did my homework and knew it was like 350 and 500. He told me that program watts are the same as RMS and I knew that wasn't right from all that I had read.

 

I picked what I thought was a working system with flexability, within what I thought was a reasonable budget (I didn't try to do this on $300), shot for reliability by skipping the Behreinger name and going with Yamaha and Peavey and going with new rather than used where I don't consider myself an expert and may wind up with a bunch of poop.

 

I'm really grateful and thankful for all who contributed and try to help me with advice in an area where I'm a novice. I'm really appreciative of the input and I've learned a lot in a very short amount of time.

 

LifeLoverWG, thanks so much for the db specs based on distance, that really puts it all in perspective.

 

RoadRanger, Abzurd and GCDEF, from you I learned how much of a science all this is and more. But somewhere we lost perspective of what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm not a rock band, I'm not a sound company, just a small ensemble that got this one big (by my standards) gig and needed new equipment to pull it off. 8,000 watt tops (learned a new term from you guys) and 32,000 watts thru subwoofers ain't gonna happen.

 

I just opened the Mixer and tried it thru the two 15" cabs, first each on a seperate channel and then daisy chained on just on channel and to my ears it sounds awesome... but that's me... I don't think I could hear the difference of better speakers but understand there are those who can.

 

A buddy of mine says I should keep it simple, keep what I bought and supplement it with active speakers out the front of the mixer when I need more power. I think at this point, that's what I'll do. I've got a Yamaha Stagepass 250M, a 12" speaker with a removeable powered mixer in it's belly I can use as a monitor and I'm gonna sell the Roland SA-300 as long as I have it and I like the sound and add one or two of the powered speakers recommended in a post above. I'll certainly have a lot of options.

 

My original question was if my powered mixer and speaker cabs are a safe combination. Not much was addressed on that but I believe it was stated I should be safe. I'll keep my eye on the clip led's.

 

Would I do the same knowing what I know now... probably not. I'd probably go the active speaker route but at least I know I can build on what I've got if I need to.

 

Thanks again guys.... I did learn a lot and really appreciate the help.

[lifeloverwg]

 

Wow... I have to tell you I'm floored by this whole concept... way more to this than I ever would have imagined. I really did try to do my homework before I purchased anything. A Guitar Center salesman was telling me the Yammie EX512 was 500 watts per channel at 8 ohms and 750 at 4. I knew that wasn't because I did my homework and knew it was like 350 and 500. He told me that program watts are the same as RMS and I knew that wasn't right from all that I had read. I picked what I thought was a working system with flexability, within what I thought was a reasonable budget (I didn't try to do this on $300), shot for reliability by skipping the Behreinger name and going with Yamaha and Peavey and going with new rather than used where I don't consider myself an expert and may wind up with a bunch of poop. I'm really grateful and thankful for all who contributed and try to help me with advice in an area where I'm a novice. I'm really appreciative of the input and I've learned a lot in a very short amount of time. LifeLoverWG, thanks so much for the db specs based on distance, that really puts it all in perspective. RoadRanger, Abzurd and GCDEF, from you I learned how much of a science all this is and more. But somewhere we lost perspective of what I'm trying to accomplish. I'm not a rock band, I'm not a sound company, just a small ensemble that got this one big (by my standards) gig and needed new equipment to pull it off. 8,000 watt tops (learned a new term from you guys) and 32,000 watts thru subwoofers ain't gonna happen. I just opened the Mixer and tried it thru the two 15" cabs, first each on a seperate channel and then daisy chained on just on channel and to my ears it sounds awesome... but that's me... I don't think I could hear the difference of better speakers but understand there are those who can. A buddy of mine says I should keep it simple, keep what I bought and supplement it with active speakers out the front of the mixer when I need more power. I think at this point, that's what I'll do. I've got a Yamaha Stagepass 250M, a 12" speaker with a removeable powered mixer in it's belly I can use as a monitor and I'm gonna sell the Roland SA-300 as long as I have it and I like the sound and add one or two of the powered speakers recommended in a post above. I'll certainly have a lot of options. My original question was if my powered mixer and speaker cabs are a safe combination. Not much was addressed on that but I believe it was stated I should be safe. I'll keep my eye on the clip led's. Would I do the same knowing what I know now... probably not. I'd probably go the active speaker route but at least I know I can build on what I've got if I need to. Thanks again guys.... I did learn a lot and really appreciate the help .

 

 

I don't think you have learned what most of us have been saying and what you're friend is recommending, even if he's wrong in how to get there.

 

Here's how I see it, most of what you say you need and even the one larger event you're worried about can be handled by 2 decent speakers. Your budget is low so you think you can improve performance by buying more pretty close to the bottom of the barrel speakers to throw at the problem even though you admit you don't know much about how to operate them to get the best out of them.

 

Even just by switching to a passive mixer and the powered version of the same speaker line you gain the advantage of having Peavey's engineering department take care of the proper powering, tuning and limiting/protection of your choice which enables you to get the most out of them without having to learn much of anything except how to hook them up. THIS IS A BIG PLUS FOR YOU!

 

Yes, if you keep the four speakers and powered mixer you already bought, it may get a little bit louder than just two powered speakers of the same line, but it won't be simpler and it won't sound better. If you are really concerned about being loud enough, I don't think anyone here would agree with the idea of buying more low level gear that's not designed to be operated together over buying two better speakers to begin with. Just to be clear, none of the PR products we are talking about will do the 120dB long term in my previous example.

 

Good luck, I know it's a complicated decision but everyone here has bought the wrong product before and had to return it or worse, upgrade at a loss later on and we try to help others not make the same mistakes.

 

Winston

[GCDEF]

On the other hand, your window for returns and exchanges will close soon. You've been shown how you could do better for the same money. If it were me, I'd take advantage of the ability to get your money back while you still can. PA gear doesn't hold its value well at all on the used market, and honestly the idea of using 15s for bigger shows and the 12s for smaller is kind of goofy.

 

The advice you're getting outside this board is probably well intentioned, but it's not really in your best interests.

[RoadRanger]

Horse + Water != Drink

[DaBender]

Someone has to go against the grain. Despite the almost universal lack of love for powered mixers on this board, countless small gigs are done to everyone's satisfaction with powered mixers and speakers on sticks every day. However, I would trade the 4 PR speakers for a pair of Yamaha Club 115s. We've already heard from one person on this thread using that powered mixer with a really good set of speakers (better than the Yammies) with good results. I think the Yammies are a step up from the PRs, and better speakers means better sound. It's also entirely possible that you'll get enough volume powering both speakers from one channel, freeing the other channel to power a passive monitor or two. Nothing could be simpler.

[lifeloverwg]

 

Someone has to go against the grain. Despite the almost universal lack of love for powered mixers on this board, countless small gigs are done to everyone's satisfaction with powered mixers and speakers on sticks every day. However, I would trade the 4 PR speakers for a pair of Yamaha Club 115s. We've already heard from one person on this thread using that powered mixer with a really good set of speakers (better than the Yammies) with good results. I think the Yammies are a step up from the PRs, and better speakers means better sound. It's also entirely possible that you'll get enough volume powering both speakers from one channel, freeing the other channel to power a passive monitor or two. Nothing could be simpler.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with a powered mixer to passive speaker setup unless you are trying to get the most bang for your buck, in which case a passive mixer to powered speaker will almost always provide more value for about the same amount of money. Just the built in limiter to help protect your speakers is worth it, let alone the speaker specific processing you get in all but the cheapest of powered speakers. It's not that people here think powered mixers can't work, we just don't think they make much sense anymore when buying new.

 

Winston

[MarkGifford-1]

 

Someone has to go against the grain. Despite the almost universal lack of love for powered mixers on this board, countless small gigs are done to everyone's satisfaction with powered mixers and speakers on sticks every day. However, I would trade the 4 PR speakers for a pair of Yamaha Club 115s. We've already heard from one person on this thread using that powered mixer with a really good set of speakers (better than the Yammies) with good results. I think the Yammies are a step up from the PRs, and better speakers means better sound. It's also entirely possible that you'll get enough volume powering both speakers from one channel, freeing the other channel to power a passive monitor or two. Nothing could be simpler.

 

 

I will concur.

 

I've done smaller full-band outdoor gigs (restaurant/patio) comparable to what the OP is talking about, w/a EMX512 and a pair of 72s, w/one pair of decent wedges. Better than acceptable sound, everyone could hear everything and I even went several hundred feet out, across the road and could still hear every instrument, balanced nicely.

 

Is it concert levels - no, but that's not what the gig demanded, we would've been shut down immediately if we'd tried that. People were there to eat, relax and enjoy a little music, not get their brains blown out.

 

Across the Western hemisphere, thousands of such gig are being played every day/night and the standard rig is a powered mixer and a pair of 15/HF boxes on sticks.

 

MG

[Shaster]

To the OP....

 

If weight is a concern, why in the world would you want to use four speakers?

 

If you like the simplicity of a powered mixer, fine, but get two workable speakers instead of four not so workable. It's like wearing two pairs of shoes 'cause you don't want to buy workboots.

 

BTW, in my opinion a lot of gear sounds good in the living room or garage..... It's when you put it to the test, inside or outside, that the differences become apparent between barely adequate and sufficient (and above).

 

good luck.

[anadaboy]

Thanks, for responding. But I bet you're not in your 60's. When I was younger, hauling the Yammie 115 Club cab wouldn't have been a problem. It's a major issue for me now. My PR15 is is 33 or 35 lbs, the Yammie is 61.

 

It might be hard to comprehend now... one day you'll understand.... you'll realize that you no longer can carry those items, load in and out of a vehicle, haul them up some stairs, etc. Depending on your age, think about the equip your talking about and ask yourself if your dad or grandad could setup your next event... or better yet, bring them and ask them to set it all up, then sit and watch.

[anadaboy]

I don't have a problem carrying 10, 10lb items, 2 at a time... I do have a problem carry all 10 at one time. I can make several trips with a lighter load, A 60 lb + cab doesn't allow me to do that unless I cut it in half... that really ruins the sound. lol

[anadaboy]

On the other hand, your window for returns and exchanges will close soon. You've been shown how you could do better for the same money. If it were me, I'd take advantage of the ability to get your money back while you still can. PA gear doesn't hold its value well at all on the used market, and honestly the idea of using 15s for bigger shows and the 12s for smaller is kind of goofy. The advice you're getting outside this board is probably well intentioned, but it's not really in your best interests.

 

I've got 15 days from Sam Ash to return the mixer... 12 remain but they charge 15% restock fee on Live Sound returns like the mixer I bought there... that's about $85. Like I said, would I go this route if I knew all this...no, but it's too late. As long as this will pull off what I need and it's a safe match I'm really leaning on keeping it.

 

Not tryin to insult anyone... but it appears that it'll work for me and my situation... as weird as that may seem to some of you... maybe it's my hearing but this equip sounds good to me and I can lug it around. Frankly, I don't understand why anyone wants to listen to me play and sing... but that's a whole new thread!

[Shaster]

 

Thanks, for responding. But I bet you're not in your 60's. When I was younger, hauling the Yammie 115 Club cab wouldn't have been a problem. It's a major issue for me now. My PR15 is is 33 or 35 lbs, the Yammie is 61. It might be hard to comprehend now... one day you'll understand.... you'll realize that you no longer can carry those items, load in and out of a vehicle, haul them up some stairs, etc. Depending on your age, think about the equip your talking about and ask yourself if your dad or grandad could setup your next event... or better yet, bring them and ask them to set it all up, then sit and watch.

 

 

I'm in my fifties so I hear what you're saying. Sometimes I look at my Unity u15's (80 lbs) and think maybe I'll just take my NX350;s (33 lbs).

 

But... the thing is there are some pretty good light weight speakers out there that will allow you to use just two instead of four.

 

Check out some of the JBL MRX 512 http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=50&MId=3 (NOT their JRX line) and EV like the SX300 http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=202 both might be cnsidered "old school" but it's a good starting or ending poinit. BTW they're 33 and 32 lbs respectively.

[DaBender]

 

But... the thing is there are some pretty good light weight speakers out there that will allow you to use just two instead of four. Check out some of the JBL MRX 512 http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=50&MId=3 (NOT their JRX line) and EV like the SX300 http://www.electrovoice.com/product.php?id=202 both might be cnsidered "old school" but it's a good starting or ending poinit. BTW they're 33 and 32 lbs respectively.

 

 

And both appear to be out of his budget, or I would have suggested them. If he does want to squeeze a dollar, there have been "open box" sx-300s on ebay recently for $460 apiece shipped.