XTI Limiter setting help

[monkeyland]

I'm helping a friend of mine who happens to be a DJ get his rig setup. He's not just a typical DJ bonehead though and is very receptive to recommendations on running the rig safely. Up until now I've been providing sound for his gigs and I've coached him about not continually pushing his levels all night and it's sunk in pretty well.

 

Gear is:

 

2 JBL MRX525

1 MRX518s (another to be added soon)

Crown XTI 4000 ch1 sub ch2 tops

Soundcraft EPM12

 

System is run is mono with the amp input set to Y at the moment.

 

We loaded the JBL speaker file in band manager for the speakers so the crossover should be good. I'm not sure exactly what the settings are since I don't have that computer here but they looked logical according to the speaker specs.

 

the amp delivers 1600w at 2 ohms and the MRX525 is 800rms so it looks like we should be good there with the limiter on the 3db setting. The sub is 500rms which is my main question. The amp is rated 1200w at 4ohms. I'd like to know where I should set the limiter in order to cut the amp output back to a safer level for the sub.

 

I'm sure there are a couple of holes in my question so let me know what else you need to know.

[RoadRanger]

As each MRX525 can take 800w for a total of 1600w there's no need for a limiter setting on them - except I'd set it at 6db because you have WAY too little sub for those. A 3db limiter setting on the subs should then be fine. BTW it would take 8 of them subs to keep up with the tops (assuming modern dance stuff and not blue-hair tunes) - I'd sell the lot and get a pair of PRX612M's over a pair of PRX618-XLF's for a MUCH better sounding system with 4x the bass output.

[Rezrover]

+1

[agedhorse]

For the tops, I would suggest setting the limiter at 0dB and for the subs, -3dB. That's about right. I would suggest another MRX-518, and with the crossover set at 80Hz, 24dB/octabe, LR alignment, you are reasonably well balanced IMO. Not perfect, but nowhere near as bad as RoadRanger postulates.

[Axisplayer]

AH, there is no 0db option on the XTI series. First click "on" is -3db. If you plan on using limiting with an XTI, you need to have twice the amp so you can limit at -3 and get what you need. If you need more than half power, you can't have limiting. It is the biggest drawback to this series.

[RoadRanger]

AH, there is no 0db option on the XTI series. First click "on" is -3db. If you plan on using limiting with an XTI, you need to have twice the amp so you can limit at -3 and get what you need. If you need more than half power, you can't have limiting. It is the biggest drawback to this series.

I'm pretty sure that the "off" position still limits clipping ...

[RoadRanger]

For the tops, I would suggest setting the limiter at 0dB and for the subs, -3dB. That's about right. I would suggest another MRX-518, and with the crossover set at 80Hz, 24dB/octabe, LR alignment, you are reasonably well balanced IMO. Not perfect, but nowhere near as bad as RoadRanger postulates.

I'm not a fan of crossing over that low but I did just that on an "SR" system I was messing with a week ago. SR4725's over SR4718's needed about 11db difference in levels to sound balanced so I offloaded as much from the subs to the tops as I could and just used the subs for the bottom octave - moved the HPF up to 45Hz too. I was really unimpressed with them old subs even at 900w each blinking red . The PRX618-XLF is at least 2x the output .

[agedhorse]

 

I'm pretty sure that the "off" position still limits clipping ...

 

 

I think so.

[agedhorse]

I'm not a fan of crossing over that low but I did just that on an "SR" system I was messing with a week ago. SR4725's over SR4718's needed about 11db difference in levels to sound balanced so I offloaded as much from the subs to the tops as I could and just used the subs for the bottom octave - moved the HPF up to 45Hz too. I was really unimpressed with them old subs even at 900w each blinking red . The PRX618-XLF is at least 2x the output .

 

You seem unimpressed with just about everything except the bottom of the barrel junk. I don't follow much of your logic.

 

I have 4 of the 4718's and they do a good job, I don't have any problems with them at all.

 

Because the efficiency bandwidth product of the tops is solid down to 80Hz, that's one way of taking advantage of a speaker that's otherwise not the best product for the job.

[RoadRanger]

You seem unimpressed with just about everything except the bottom of the barrel junk.

PRX, SRX and Danley are bottom of the barrel junk?

I have 4 of the 4718's and they do a good job, I don't have any problems with them at all.

Four might be OK - two just didn't keep up with them stoopid loud SR4735's . Are yours "A"'s or "X"'s ? These were the originals - 4 ohm subs and 8 ohm tops. The SR4718's just didn't seem any stronger than the PV118's I've used - I was quite surprised at that ! Could the magnets have gone weak on them or somethin'? Supposedly the local JBL rep checked them out and they are the right drivers - I did measure them as about the right DCR. They sounded fine other that that. A local provider a couple notches up from me tells me he used to have some and it took about 3 of the 4718's to keep up with one of those tops - but he has 8 labs so is a bit bass happy .

[Coaster]

PRX, SRX and Danley are bottom of the barrel junk?

 

you're constantly blah blah yap yap about how awesome behringer is. its a real turn off

[RoadRanger]

you're constantly blah blah yap yap about how awesome behringer is. its a real turn off

Don't remember ever saying it was more than OK. Aside from their ultrashort warranties compared to other brands that is .

 

None of their subs seem worth a look nor their "dedicated" floor monitors. Their active plastic is OK as are their power amps. Most folks just aren't gonna hear a difference. Yah know, 30 years ago I couldn't stand the sound of JBL - all the "club level' systems I heard were like a pneumatic rock drill stuck in your ear . I'd take Behringer over any of that old crap .

[agedhorse]

you're constantly blah blah yap yap about how awesome behringer is. its a real turn off

 

Thank you.

[agedhorse]

The 4718's are X's and have 2241's (or 42's) in them. Great sounding sub, nice round bottom. Kind of heavy though.

 

I am not a fan of stupid bottom end, nor am I a fan of one note bottom.

[monkeyland]

 

For the tops, I would suggest setting the limiter at 0dB and for the subs, -3dB. That's about right. I would suggest another MRX-518, and with the crossover set at 80Hz, 24dB/octabe, LR alignment, you are reasonably well balanced IMO. Not perfect, but nowhere near as bad as RoadRanger postulates.

 

 

Well due to not knowing at the time about whether the amp would limit in the "off" mode for the limiter I set the tops to -3 and the sub to -6. I also increased the slope of the HPF to 48db/oct LR set at 40 hz due to it sounding strained when they got into a track with lots of low bass.

 

The system sounded pretty good although definitely a little light in the low end for what they are doing. They know that another sub is needed just to balance it a little and are prepared to err on the side of caution in respects to how hard they run the gear.

 

thanks for the info.

[RoadRanger]

The 4718's are X's

I've read that the "X" has quite a bit more output than the originals?

I am not a fan of stupid bottom end, nor am I a fan of one note bottom.

While I agree on the former (and the latter can usually be "fixed" via EQ - for instance lab subs) the former is what folks expect on modern dance music. In this particular case the subs were not "hot" when powered at 11db above the tops, just balanced. This system was in a small basement and we had the subs in the red at 900w each and they were not "earplug" loud nor did the cones look particularly motivated to move to and fro. I don't believe it myself so shouldn't expect you folks to I guess . It was a PLX3002 BTW. I know it's a myth that PLX can't drive subs but I'd like to try a RMX2450 before giving up on them. The stage I was playin' on last Saturday had bridged XTI2000's into SR4715's that seem to do OK but as I said Behringer B210D's were louder that that "SR" system (minus the low end of course) - dunno how close to WFO the "SR" system was but it was sure feeding back in the low frequencies just fine and otherwise peaky "down there" .

[RoadRanger]

Oh, and anybody who hasn't had a listen to the Behringer B208D's or B210D's ought to before making themselves look silly. I bought them with the expectation of them being "usable" and was pleasantly surprised that they were "OK" to maybe even "Good". Perhaps that is due to their lower powering than their bigger cousins like the B212D and the resultant lack of overdriven harshness (not that I've heard the others)? BTW I tend to rate stuff on this scale:

""Horrifically bad"

"Unusable"

"Barely Usable"

"Usable"

"OK"

"Good"

"Great"

"Mind Blowing"

 

Perhaps I should add a higher top category as I'd presently rate SRX and the PRX618-XLF as "Mind Blowing" . It's hard to believe the 718 and XLF evolved out of them 4718's I'm griping about .

 

I haven't come across much of recent manufacture that wasn't at least "usable" and have seen many "soundguys" who's main talent was to make anything sound "Horrifically Bad" .

[RoadRanger]

Well due to not knowing at the time about whether the amp would limit in the "off" mode

I'm 100% sure that they do .

[guitarjrh]

 

Well due to not knowing at the time about whether the amp would limit in the "off" mode for the limiter I set the tops to -3 and the sub to -6.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the clip limiter functions in all cases. I believe you might get a little better performance using AH's suggestion. ("off" on tops; -3 on sub).

 

You can call Crown and get a definite answer on the clip limiter function:

 

http://www.crownaudio.com/support/techsupp.htm

[agedhorse]

One note subs can be bandaided with eq, but not fixed. It's a byproduct of trying to achieve high sensitivity at the expense of flatness. Personally, I do not care for that approach, but sometimes it's the better tradeoff.

 

I have used the 4718's for years, I just haven't experienced the problems you have RoadRanger. I drive everything with PLX's, and in the last 1000 shows, don't recall any client complaints. If I were you, I would look closely to see if maybe there is something wrong that you are missing.

[RoadRanger]

One note subs can be bandaided with eq, but not fixed. It's a byproduct of trying to achieve high sensitivity at the expense of flatness. Personally, I do not care for that approach, but sometimes it's the better tradeoff.

The lab subs are one notable exception I think? Those I definitely rate "Mind Blowing Plus" .

I have used the 4718's for years, I just haven't experienced the problems you have RoadRanger. I drive everything with PLX's, and in the last 1000 shows, don't recall any client complaints. If I were you, I would look closely to see if maybe there is something wrong that you are missing.

Yah, we'll see how they do in a venue soon and I can get someone to take a "SMAART" look at them. I'd like to try a DBX223 crossover in place of the DRPA too - maybe that's gone wonky but the PLX amp was definitely hittin' the red so I think the DR is ok? I didn't get a chance to check polarities, delays and such but SMAART will definitely catch that . If it all made sense I'd not be discussing it here .

[Vinny D]

I've read that the "X" has quite a bit more output than the originals?While I agree on the former (and the latter can usually be "fixed" via EQ - for instance lab subs) the former is what folks expect on modern dance music. In this particular case the subs were not "hot" when powered at 11db above the tops, just balanced. This system was in a small basement and we had the subs in the red at 900w each and they were not "earplug" loud nor did the cones look particularly motivated to move to and fro. I don't believe it myself so shouldn't expect you folks to I guess . It was a PLX3002 BTW. I know it's a myth that PLX can't drive subs but I'd like to try a RMX2450 before giving up on them. .

 

I will throw in my .01 cent as thats all my opinion is worth.

The JBL 4718 old trapezoid looking sub was a piece of garbage, one of the worst subs I ever got the chance to use.

The 4718-x that was the nice little cube (like the newer 718) was a much better box, and I would have liked to grab (4) of those years ago.

I know people are going to cry, but the PLX3002 is probably the worst amp you could ever use on subs (and I own two of them, not used on subs). The PLX3402 is a bit better.....but still suck on sub duty.

The RMX series amps do a much better job on subs, and they don't get hot enough to cook eggs on like the PLX series does.

Again, just my .01 cent.....which is probably worth about 1/2 as much now!

And on another rant while I am at it....

If you are a sound provider and are showing up on the job with Behringer anything.....you should be ashamed of yourself.

Take some pride in your craft!

[Coaster]

 

If you are a sound provider and are showing up on the job with Behringer anything.....you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

 

i came to this realization the day before i gave away my three behringer compressors.

 

i'd have to add to the list SKB and mackie

[RoadRanger]

I will throw in my .01 cent as thats all my opinion is worth. The JBL 4718 old trapezoid looking sub was a piece of garbage, one of the worst subs I ever got the chance to use.

Yah, that's my experience so far. No better than a PV118 ...

I know people are going to cry, but the PLX3002 is probably the worst amp you could ever use on subs (and I own two of them, not used on subs). The PLX3402 is a bit better.....but still suck on sub duty. The RMX series amps do a much better job on subs, and they don't get hot enough to cook eggs on like the PLX series does.

I haven't compared yet in the same room but it did seem like an RMX2450 driving a pair of PV118's at 500w each out-pounded the PLX3002 driving a pair of SR4718's at 900w each and that's just wrong .

If you are a sound provider and are showing up on the job with Behringer anything.....you should be ashamed of yourself. Take some pride in your craft!

I actually bought the B208D's for acoustic jams to go with a little MG82CX and never expected them to be usable for paid stuff - actually the only "sound job" I've used them on was a freebee benefit and I had "the good stuff" in the car that I was prepared to swap in if they didn't pass muster on soundcheck or if they blew up mid-gig. However that band has a $1800 wedding gig coming up that I'm seriously considering using them on as I have one pair that is white and the wedding crowd likes that . I'll still bring backup though. If JBL craps out it's a fluke whereas if Behringer dies it YOUR fault somehow - guess I ain't quite figured out this "pro sound guy" logic thing .

 

I'm still waiting for my first "Behringer Fail".

[Coaster]

 

I'm still waiting for my first "Behringer Fail".

 

 

maybe its already happened and you just dont know it?