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Is it my DAW or is it my audio interface? Help needed!


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Posted

Hi,

 

I need your thoughts and advice!

 

Yeasterday when I was about to record some guitar tracks (clean electric) I first listened through my mixer and it sounded warm and sparkly. Just the way I wanted it. Then I sent that exact signal to my DAW and auditioned the guitar through my DAW. I noticed a definitive difference in the sound. Just by sending it through the DAW and listening back through the mixer. I made sure I had no plugins anywhere in the signal chain.

 

That made me remember a MIPA Awards event in Frankfurt many years back when I had a discussion with Craig and Paul Reed Smith. Paul (who has a set of golden ears) said he had auditioned all the DAWs available at that time and he thought they all sounded different.

 

So now I'm posing the following question:

Is the difference in sound I'm experience the sound of my DAW (PreSonus Studio One Professional 3.2) or is it the converters in my audio interface (Edirol FA-66) that is the culprit here? Or could it be the cables?

 

What I obviously want is to have my recordings sound like the instruments do in my mixer. What do you think I can/should) do to make that happen?

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

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Posted

My first instinct is to say its the convertors. When I dumped the MOTU 2408 MKII and downsized to the Apogee Duet 2, I noticed a significant improvement in sound. The sound was fuller... a rounder low end, smoother mids and highs...

 

However, having 3 DAWs myself, I do know that each one sounds different to my ears as well. I`m sure each DAW has its own way of handling the incoming signal but the sound difference is not significantly better with one DAW over another. Digital Performer is my go to for most productions but I have noticed that REASON sounds brighter. Then there is Ableton LIVE which I use sparingly and I would say the sound is slightly thinner.

 

I use the same chain for everything... AT4050 -> Avalon 737 -> Duet 2 -> DAW so I`m convinced at this point that its how each DAW handles the incoming data.

 

My recommendation is to get your hands on 2-3 convertors.

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Posted
My recommendation is to get your hands on 2-3 convertors.

 

I was hoping that would be a recommendation as I really like working with Studio One.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

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Posted
How drastic is the difference you're hearing Mats?

 

 

To me it's quite audible. Mainly in the mids as I feel I loose warmth but there's also a loss in the top end and the sound feels less lively.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

Posted

When you're listening to the mixer, I assume you're playing the guitar live simultaneously. Are you hearing the guitar simultaneously in the room and not just through the board? Maybe that's influencing the listening?

 

 

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Posted
When you're listening to the mixer, I assume you're playing the guitar live simultaneously. Are you hearing the guitar simultaneously in the room and not just through the board? Maybe that's influencing the listening?

 

 

I listened through headphones I'm very familiar with in both instances and played the guitar in both instances while listening so that was not a parameter to take into account.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

Posted

What I am suggesting is using a differnt source so you don't have to play at all and can concentrate on listening. Maybe use your phone or an MP3 player and monitor the mixer, then record it and then monitor the playback. A simple A/B comparison should be easy to do and would allow nearly instantaneous direct comparisons between the two.

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Posted
What I am suggesting is using a differnt source so you don't have to play at all and can concentrate on listening. Maybe use your phone or an MP3 player and monitor the mixer' date=' then record it and then monitor the playback. A simple A/B comparison should be easy to do and would allow nearly instantaneous direct comparisons between the two.[/quote']

 

That, my dear Sir, is a great suggestion. I'll try that!

 

But I still would appreciate more thoughts and opinions.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

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Posted

Converters sound different, DAW math sounds different. The differences in each between being in line and not are getting smaller, but as those differences get smaller, and more important, as noise levels become practically non-existant, we tend to be more picky. But when you use terms like loss of warmth and less lively, that's hard to diagnose.

 

What's more important is that when you listen the next day, does the recording sound good enough to be happy with it? And even more important, unless you're recording bare guitar solos, what will it sound like in a mix?

 

But if you really want to try changing something, make it the Edirol. That's kind of dated (as is Firewire, but it'll last as long as the computer that has the matching port survives), but it's amazing how much progress has been made in A/D converters in the past few years.

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Posted

You might want to have a talk with Mssrs. Fletcher and Munson. Less low end and less high end ("sparkly") is what happens when the volume is lower because of the ear's response. As someone who has recorded and played music for years, even a 1 dB difference will cause a difference you'll notice. This isn't to say the converters aren't a factor - people often underestimate the benefits of high quality converters - but there may be more to the story than just that.

 

Also, the way your monitoring is set up may mean the signal is going through more mixer electronics when listening to the DAW compared to listening to the guitar by itself.

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Posted

 

Also, the way your monitoring is set up may mean the signal is going through more mixer electronics when listening to the DAW compared to listening to the guitar by itself.

 

Or different electronics. Which headphone jack are you (Mats) listening to? And how is the guitar connected to the FA-66 input? Is the guitar going through a DI box to a mic preamp in the mixer? Or to a High-Z instrument input on the mixer? Or through a microphone? The DAW playback path to the mixer's headphone jack is probaby from the FA-66 line outputs to the mixer's "tape return" input, which is likely a shorter signal path, but one that's different from listening to the guitar straight out of the mixer.

 

You really can't separate the sound of the converters from the sound of the DAW other than by changing out one or the other. It was easier when you could compare the sound recorded on Ampex 456 tape with that of Scotch 256. With a DAW setup, it's more like swapping out the Studer for an Ampex. (and some people did that, or went to a studio that had the recorder that sounded best for whatever they were tracking at the time).

 

Perhaps a more fair way to compare input to output would be to set the DAW for "tape style" input monitoring so what comes into the computer from the interface goes out to the interface at the same level. The most straightforward path is to plug the guitar directly into the FA-66 (however you choose to do that), but you could plug it into the mixer and send the mixer output to the interface's line input. Monitor the output of the interface, either directly from its headphone jack or through the "tape return" on the mixer. You can use the Direct Monitor knob on the interface to switch its output from direct input to DAW output. But before you start listening critically, use a signal generator to replace the guitar and carefully adjust the DAW's output level so that you get the same level at the interface output with the Direct Monitor knob fully counterclockwise (direct guitar) and fully clockwise (DAW output).

 

 

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Posted
But if you really want to try changing something' date=' make it the Edirol. That's kind of dated (as is Firewire, but it'll last as long as the computer that has the matching port survives), but it's amazing how much progress has been made in A/D converters in the past few years.[/quote']

 

Thanks Mike! I think I'll try a new audio I/F.

 

Edit: Just read your next post and I've tried almost exactly as you suggested except for a few things I will try tomorrow.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

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Posted
You might want to have a talk with Mssrs. Fletcher and Munson. Less low end and less high end ("sparkly") is what happens when the volume is lower because of the ear's response. As someone who has recorded and played music for years, even a 1 dB difference will cause a difference you'll notice. This isn't to say the converters aren't a factor - people often underestimate the benefits of high quality converters - but there may be more to the story than just that.

 

Also, the way your monitoring is set up may mean the signal is going through more mixer electronics when listening to the DAW compared to listening to the guitar by itself.

 

I did take the F&M effect into consideration and did my very best to set the listening to as identical levels as possible. Still had the same experience.

 

My monitoring does have the signal coming back from the computer back into the mixer but I have a hard time seeing that it would affect the sound this way.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

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Posted
Could it be an impedance mismatch between your mixer and your interface?

 

Interesting thought! Now that you mention it it sounds similar to sounds I'v heard when that was the problem.

 

However, I am running the submix 1 and 2 from my Mackie CR1604-VLZ to the line in on the FA-66 so that really should not be a problem. Or could it?

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

  • CMS Author
Posted

An impedance mismatch problem is when you plug your guitar pickup into a line or mic level input on a mixer. Your problem isn't one of impedance mismatching.

 

A picture is worth at least a few hundred words. If you could draw a block diagram of your signal flow something like this showing your setup, it would be helpful.

 

EX3ayt1.jpg

 

 

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Posted

Oooooh!!! Fancy! It takes me so much less time to scribble on a napkin than it does to figure out how to use a drawing program.

 

Well, there are a number of possibilities. One as we discussed before is that the levels might not be exactly the same when monitoring input and output.

 

Are you using the Control Room Source buttons to select what you're hearing in the headphones? Pressing the Sub 1-2 buttons when listening to the guitar going in, and switching to whatever source you have the channels coming back from the interface assigned to (main mix, probably)?

 

Also, there's no EQ bypass on the VLZ series, so even with the EQ knobs set to 0, the channels you're using to listen to the playback may not be exactly flat. Since I suppose you're monitoring the Sub 1-2 outputs to hear the guitar "before," the guitar signal going to the two subgroup buses should be the same, even if there's a little EQ (intended or not) applied to it, but the levels of the subgroup outputs might not be matched exactly, so you're hearing the guitar a little differently in one ear than the other. Similarly, on the return trip, the gain of the two return channels might not be exactly the same, and if you're panning them both to the center, the pan pot detent may not be perfectly centered electrically. The Tape In jacks on the mixer go straight to the monitor amplifier section with no EQ or filters, so that would be the best representation of what's coming back from the computer - which should be the same as what went to the computer if your interface was perfect.

 

It's surprising how many people rave about the improvement when they get a new interface or converter, like it's day to night difference. I've never heard that myself. I never listened for it and it's never been dramatic enough for me to worry about. Being used to tape, I expect it to sound a little different every time I hear it, and if everything is working right, it'll always sound pretty good.

 

 

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Posted
Oooooh!!! Fancy! It takes me so much less time to scribble on a napkin than it does to figure out how to use a drawing program.

 

Well, there are a number of possibilities. One as we discussed before is that the levels might not be exactly the same when monitoring input and output.

 

Are you using the Control Room Source buttons to select what you're hearing in the headphones? Pressing the Sub 1-2 buttons when listening to the guitar going in, and switching to whatever source you have the channels coming back from the interface assigned to (main mix, probably)?

 

Also, there's no EQ bypass on the VLZ series, so even with the EQ knobs set to 0, the channels you're using to listen to the playback may not be exactly flat. Since I suppose you're monitoring the Sub 1-2 outputs to hear the guitar "before," the guitar signal going to the two subgroup buses should be the same, even if there's a little EQ (intended or not) applied to it, but the levels of the subgroup outputs might not be matched exactly, so you're hearing the guitar a little differently in one ear than the other. Similarly, on the return trip, the gain of the two return channels might not be exactly the same, and if you're panning them both to the center, the pan pot detent may not be perfectly centered electrically. The Tape In jacks on the mixer go straight to the monitor amplifier section with no EQ or filters, so that would be the best representation of what's coming back from the computer - which should be the same as what went to the computer if your interface was perfect.

 

It's surprising how many people rave about the improvement when they get a new interface or converter, like it's day to night difference. I've never heard that myself. I never listened for it and it's never been dramatic enough for me to worry about. Being used to tape, I expect it to sound a little different every time I hear it, and if everything is working right, it'll always sound pretty good.

 

 

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for taking your time with this.

 

I have tried everything you suggested and short of the mixer being electronically off kilter I don't think it's a mixer eq or level issue. It doesn't sound not feel like that. t think it's something else, somewhere else.

 

Next thing to check will be the cables.

 

Then off to look for a new audio I/F.

 

Cheers,

 

Mats N

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