Made in America

[sharnrock]

I've worked for a lot of rich people. A pretty good amount of the work we do is on Jupiter Island. I have built houses for Dick Fuld (ex CEO of Lehmon Bros), Charles Walgreen III, the Johnson & Johnson heirs, Steve Bisciotti (owns the Ravens), Paul Mears ect... In the rare occasions when I get to meet these people you'd be surprised how regular they are and how different some of them can be. Some are super tight with their money, some spend it on bull{censored}, others seem like bratty 12 year old girls in full grown men bodies(a lot of them are like this unfortunately). Some of them inherited their money, the guy we work for now was born in Hell's kitchen and worked his way up from nothing. His company manages hedge funds and he's incredibly temperamental and only naps a couple hours a day. I wouldn't say money makes people evil, but it sure can make them pissy when things aren't going their way. If they don't inherit the money they usually get it because they're very hardworking, smart, and lucky. Or they're ruthless business people and they just take what they want. One of the houses we built came with solid 6000psi concrete walls with military grade ballistics glass on the widows and solid steel bedroom doors able to withstand an rpg blast. I guess he pissed off a couple people getting to where he is now.

 

I believe whats fueling this widening gap between the wealthy and the poor is the supply and demand of labor. Most of the middle class jobs have been replaced by computers and foreign labor. Even medical procedures are being sent over seas. Insurance companies will pay to ship patients to India for hip replacement surgery. My uncle is an engineer in Ohio and apparently all the menial kinda work gets done over seas and they more or less look it over. One in four construction workers are illegal immigrants. Obviously manufacturing jobs are gone forever. What jobs are left? Everyone's going to have a service job. A lot of people blame unions for making wages too much, but even minimum wage per hour is more than some of these countries pay a week. Lawyers will always be domestic, but then you have to pass the bar which is set by the lawyers (and they know less lawyers equals higher wages). I'm going to school right now for a degree in computer science, but I don't know what the job market is going to be like when I'm done.

 

What were we talking about again? Oh Yea! I like that my boss only hires legal citizens. I really think it makes the company better. Insourcing jobs hurts just as much as outsourcing.

 

/rant

[IsildursBane]

One of the houses we built came with solid 6000psi concrete walls with military grade ballistics glass on the widows and solid steel bedroom doors able to withstand an rpg blast.

I'm going to school right now for a degree in computer science, but I don't know what the job market is going to be like when I'm done.

It'll be fine; you may have to move, but there's plenty of that work around and there will be for a long time. If nothing else, there's always defense work - the Pentagon isn't going to off-shore the building of tanks and submarines.

-Dan.

[twostone]

It'll be fine; you may have to move, but there's plenty of that work around and there will be for a long time. If nothing else, there's always defense work - the Pentagon isn't going to off-shore the building of tanks and submarines. -Dan.

Yep if don't mind knowing that your fruits of labor brings death and destruction to those that resist the ideology.

I'm all for American made but first they need to figure out a way folks can afford American made don't ya think ? Maybe put a spending cap on our public servants might be a good start.

7 billion for a aircraft carrier ? man a few billion would go a long ways for better education and maybe tax breaks for corporations that help the poor to become productive citizens not make them poorer and depend on government even more.

[Vito Corleone]

I'm all for American made but first they need to figure out a way folks can afford American made don't ya think ? Maybe put a spending cap on our public servants might be a good start.

So your idea for figuring out a way folks can afford to by American is to pay them less?? Even Henry Ford knew THAT wasn't gonna work.

[twostone]

So your idea for figuring out a way folks can afford to by American is to pay them less?? Even Henry Ford knew THAT wasn't gonna work.

 

 

So your down with the gov. wasting trillions? I think you missed the capping on our government public servants spending. Not sure how many trillions we gotta pay for the war in Iraq.

Hell we should own that country all the money we spent on it.

 

IMO been cheaper to round up all the murders and psychopaths out of prisons give em a free ride to the M.E. and turn them lose and let them handle the dirty work of killing' Heck they would do it for free of charge.

Americans slowly figuring out that our so called elected public servants really don't serve the public nor look out for their best interest but serve the rich money lenders and money exchangers best interest.

[agedhorse]

It's a whole lot more complicated than this.

There is a difference between spending money for the overall public good and spending money that benefits nobody but the recipient of the money. The WPA spent money on buildings and projects that we are still benefiting from for example.

I would have no problem cutting the wasteful spending (wasteful being defined as benefiting very few if any people other than the recipient) and using that money on things that bring this country as a whole benefits that last many years into the future. That means taking a good look at the cost/benefit ratio. Energy independance projects are one area that shows much future promise when the cost of war and security are factored in for example...

[twostone]

It's a whole lot more complicated than this. There is a difference between spending money for the overall public good and spending money that benefits nobody but the recipient of the money. The WPA spent money on buildings and projects that we are still benefiting from for example. I would have no problem cutting the wasteful spending (wasteful being defined as benefiting very few if any people other than the recipient) and using that money on things that bring this country as a whole benefits that last many years into the future. That means taking a good look at the cost/benefit ratio. Energy independance projects are one area that shows much future promise when the cost of war and security are factored in for example...

 

 

Oh I know it's way more complicated then what I mentioned just look at the American tax code and the laws that pertain to it.

It's basically to protect the rich and steal money from the poor and middle class to finance what agengda that suits their needs.

America has no voice just ask the OWS's folks. The media makes sure they look like idiots voicing their opinion about government waste and failed policies and being held accountable for their failed policies and wasteful spending. Today's government is not a government for the people but a corporation that's ran by a lot of idiots that don't know how to manage money.

Isn't Obam asking for another trillion debt ceiling raise ?

[Dogoth]

It's a whole lot more complicated than this. There is a difference between spending money for the overall public good and spending money that benefits nobody but the recipient of the money. The WPA spent money on buildings and projects that we are still benefiting from for example. I would have no problem cutting the wasteful spending (wasteful being defined as benefiting very few if any people other than the recipient) and using that money on things that bring this country as a whole benefits that last many years into the future. That means taking a good look at the cost/benefit ratio. Energy independance projects are one area that shows much future promise when the cost of war and security are factored in for example...

 

 

Agreed. Many things have been socialized (even in the midst of the cold war) such as the interstate freeway project (Eisenhower). Fire, Police, Military, Schools (although that ones going a bit awry and becoming a political/social football) but basic Safety, Health & Welfare. Mostly it works fine but should be limited to those things that the private sector either wouldn't voluntarily do or would unfairly take advantage of. The private sector wouldn't build an interstate freeway system on their own. With the proper tax persuasion, they might (sort of), but can you imagin every expressway being a toll road?

 

Case in point. President Jimmy Carter saw the looming energy crisis and had setup tax incentives for development of self reliance and alternate energy sources. Ronald Regan (I'm not dinging Ronnie, he had his good points too) shut them down, opting for diversification (more S. American oil and less Arabian - this was good) and protection (a greater military presence in the Indian ocean & near the middle east). Regan's plan worked for a while but if we had continued development of alternate & domestic energy then we would now be way ahead of the curve today.

 

It sort of reminds me of our health care system (IMO another health & welfare system that is badly in need of some form of socialization). You don't pay, you don't go. Somehow an unhealthy workforce doesn't seem like it benefits society at large. The question is how to make it efficient. Maybe this should be another thread or forum entirely - sorry just ranting :-).

[sharnrock]

 

Oh I know it's way more complicated then what I mentioned just look at the American tax code and the laws that pertain to it. It's basically to protect the rich and steal money from the poor and middle class to finance what agengda that suits their needs. America has no voice just ask the OWS's folks. The media makes sure they look like idiots voicing their opinion about government waste and failed policies and being held accountable for their failed policies and wasteful spending. Today's government is not a government for the people but a corporation that's ran by a lot of idiots that don't know how to manage money. Isn't Obam asking for another trillion debt ceiling raise ?

 

 

I don't know how you get that from looking at the tax code. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. The top 1% pays over 50% of the tax revenue for the country. Not to mention all this "wasteful spending" gets spent back into the country and is collected again. It's not like the money evaporates after we pay the garbage guy to pick up our trash; he spends it at the local American stores.

[twostone]

I don't know how you get that from looking at the tax code. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. The top 1% pays over 50% of the tax revenue for the country. Not to mention all this "wasteful spending" gets spent back into the country and is collected again. It's not like the money evaporates after we pay the garbage guy to pick up our trash; he spends it at the local American stores.

How much money do the 1% keep here American soil IIRC the Swiss bank have no ask and tell policy. I'm all for American made jobs just right now our public servants have made a total wreck of things in the past few decades and nobody has a solution to fix it.

[Mutha Goose]

I will gladly pay more for American made products, but suprisingly many US made goods are less expensive than Made in China products. For many products Asian manufacturing does not result in lower prices, just higher profits. Bose is a perfect example of that.

 

 

Coming late to the party here.... But what the hell are you talking about? Up until recently all of Bose's manufacturing was in the US. Most of it is still is in the US but there is a plant in Mexico and a couple in Canada. They do some contracted manufacturing in Asia, but only enough to open the Asian market. I think the only Asian made product sold in the US are the earbuds (other passive headphones MAYBE also).

[sailorman]

I try to buy made in the US whenever I can. Recently I was at Home Depot buying some clamps for my woodworking shop. I have a bunch of Jorgenson clamps, but thought I'd give a Bessie a try. That is until I saw "Made in China" on the Bessies and "Made in USA" on the Jorgensons. I put the Bessies back. My father recently let me go through my grandfather's 100+ year old tool box. I brought home a couple Stanley planes, a brace and bit, some chisels, a wooden Stanley level. All stamped "Made in USA" and still in good working order after serving my grandfather his entire working career.

That being said, I've recently purchased a Ridgid planer and jointer (made by Emerson) and a Grizzly band saw, all made in China. I don't think it's possible to find consumer grade power tools made in the US anymore.

[twostone]

It'll be fine; you may have to move, but there's plenty of that work around and there will be for a long time. If nothing else, there's always defense work - the Pentagon isn't going to off-shore the building of tanks and submarines. -Dan.

Speak of the devil http://news.yahoo.com/boeing-wins-3-48-billion-u-missile-defense-020950294.html

Guess their gearing up so when the natural resources run low we can make damn sure we can bring hell on earth to get our share.

[Dogoth]

I don't know how you get that from looking at the tax code. We have the highest corporate tax rate in the world. The top 1% pays over 50% of the tax revenue for the country. Not to mention all this "wasteful spending" gets spent back into the country and is collected again. It's not like the money evaporates after we pay the garbage guy to pick up our trash; he spends it at the local American stores.

 

 

Firstly I'd guess that the top 1% make more than 50% of the income so well they should pay more. We may have the highest corporate tax but it's not about the corporations, it's about individuals (or corporations) that make money by only investing. The taxes on the rich are lower now than they have ever been for the last 50+ years. Capitol gains tax is a mear 14% (lowered somewhere around 2001). For a bank or an investment firm, I'd guess that is the majority of their income. Typicaly capitol gains tax has been in the 20% to 25% range (ranging from as low as 18% and as high as 35% in the 50 years previous to this last tax cut).

 

Secondly Does that money all get spent here in America? How much of that money is invested in foreign markets or used to capitalize factories abroad? Probably quite a bit.

[sharnrock]

 

Secondly Does that money all get spent here in America? How much of that money is invested in foreign markets or used to capitalize factories abroad? Probably quite a bit.

 

 

Right. Moody's already did a study that showed welfare adds more to the GDP than tax cuts to the top percents.

 

I meant the top 5% pay over half the taxes, and yes they should pay more. I was only arguing that the tax system is set up to tax the rich more than the poor. Sure the rich are paying less in taxes than in previous years, but 47% didn't pay taxes at all last year. I think that number was down to around 25% a couple years ago. Capital gains are taxed differently for corporations. That being said there are still people like Warren Buffet whose income is mostly capital gains.

[IsildursBane]

 

but 47% didn't pay taxes at all last year.

 

 

I was going to stay out of this, but that's an easy one that I feel compelled to correct whenever I see it.

 

That statement is not correct. What is true is that 47% of Americans didn't pay federal income taxes last year. They still paid FICA, state income taxes, sales tax, property taxes, and any other consumption taxes and excise fees that are levied. And as you can see from this document (the table you want is on pg 32-33), Social Security and retirement receipts currently make up as large a percentage of tax receipts as they ever have. 35-40% of our federal tax receipts are from a regressive tax scheme, i.e. one which taxes the poor more heavily than it does the wealthy.

 

Your statement is a good example of the "class warfare" that is coming from the right / rich that they don't want you to realize is happening. They've effectively taken one fact and twisted it into a falsehood that makes you feel resentful of the poor and defensive/sympathetic towards the rich. I doubt you, personally, intended to twist things that way, but it highlights how effective their message has been. They've also gotten you to ignore the fact that the vast majority of GDP growth over the last 30 years has gone to the wealthy and that these 47%'ers aren't paying income tax because they don't have a lot of money. Where is the outrage over so many people are scraping to get by?

 

-Dan.