Not

[Marko]

Possibly consider booking significantly larger venues, with a significantly higher powered PA, where the guitarist's volume would then be appropriate for the event. My father has a nice ski-boat. He also has a fish pond (approx. 1 acre surface area) just a few hundred feet from the barn where he stores his boat. It would be much cheaper and easier to just put-in down at the pond than haul the ski-boat all the way to the lake, and the pond would be just fine for puttin around... but if it's time to have some fun and mash the throttle and let-er rip... the pond is just way too small... we'd blow all the fish out of the water, and probably end-up beached at 40mph. I few years ago, my helper Cliff was battling guitarist volume in his band, so Cliff put together a combo guitar amp/wedge monitor for his guitarist... which has been working outstanding well for the desired effect, which was to get the FOH mix reasonable. The guitarist however now bitches that his guitar is way too loud (through the guitar amp/monitor pointed directly at his face) and sometimes he can't hear the vocals in his monitor because his guitar is so loud.

Lots of small bar/clubs, guys who like to do 6-8 gigs per month (depending on which of us you ask)

[Marko]

Well, that's the second part of your problem; you're providing a PA system and letting someone else run it who won't follow orders. Usually the person providing the band PA has more control than that. If you can't convert your rig to a stage mix where you're doing the mixing yourself, then you'll have to trick the fader monkey. Get yourself a line level attenuator like this: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/441842-REG/Rolls_SLC19_SLC19_Stereo_Level_Attenuator.html Connect it between the mixer output and the amp inputs, and hide the attenuator in the amp rack where the fader monkey won't notice it. I still think it's the wrong way to deal with this situation, but at least it's a fairly inexpensive way to try your idea of limiting the PA output, to see if people will complain about the guitar.

 

 

Well

[Musicman717]

I don't know what your band does for you. If its your only income and you need it to feed your family or if its a hobby. If you need your band gigs to feed you and your family then the loud guitar player is only going to hurt you and your band in the long run. If your a hobby player and this is for "fun?" then you have to ask yourself. If my hobby was model airplane flying would I be happy sitting home and painting? If your out for the fun of it then it sounds like your not enjoying your hobby at all. It should be fun right? If your a good person and working with the other band members and they also agree the guitar player is too loud then its time for a "Band meeting". As tough as it is bands come and go. If only a hobby then let the guitar player or the band go. You can always start over and what could be worse? I've found in all my years out that being loud is part of a persons personality. Its their venue to showcase themselves. In general people don't change much. The guitar player won't be happy in his/her hobby playing at a lower volume. Another part is the playing good? Sometimes its not that the player or the whole band is too loud its just the entertainment is not that good. Trying to play Death Metal at a country club comes to mind. Know matter how low the volume people will complain about it. They are trying not to hear something they don't like. I don't think you need this but get a 2nd point of view on this. Have someone or several people who has a good ear come to a few gigs an see if it really is true. Remember one thing. YOU and the BAND you play in will be remembered at the places you play. Even if the loud guitar player is gone they will prejudge you. You don't want to tarnish your rep to the point where you can't play local. Don't become another BUT band. *They are a great band BUT they are too loud* Oh and give the guitar player a link to this thread. Dookietwo

 

 

I agree totally with dookietwo, down here in the south , a loud band is not very welcome in the clubs down here. DT is right , you do not want to get a rep of being a band too loud to play. as i have stated earlier if the band isn't willing to comprimise with you and dont see your situation and don't help you then they arent really a committed band member . you ask any band member on here. the whole point is staying busy with your talent and makeing it pay off with a job every week. When i played , I was totally 100% percent serious with the way we sounded and our rep. it wasn't fun and games with me . and we turned out to be a highly demanded band all around my area. we stayed on the road more than we stayed at home. I wouldnt wait on something else to happen I would have a band meeting ASAP. and dont leave till you have a happy medium with all of the band , set some ground rules and have a vision of where you want your band to go and what you want from your band in return. if the guy isnt talked to, then he is going to make you miss a lot more money and more oppertunities , down the road. Trust me , I have been there i know From experience.Also from experience. just because you aint on a billboard doesnt mean you aint advertised at all, word of mouth tends to go so much futher. I see the root of your problem is the guitarist , so here is a suggestion or two, either have him tilt his amp up toward his head as others have expressed, or put his amp in front of him and turn it up as well toward his head like a monitor. or set it up to where it is head leavel with his head. and i gurantee you he will turn it down or lose his hearing one. hope this helps.

[GCDEF]

They know what a bad mix is, but it

[abzurd]

Here's a free fix. A piece of gaff tape over the main fader. After that you tell the guy running the mixer that, whatever he breaks he fixes ON HIS DIME. If that's a problem then you put the mixer next to you on stage and run sound yourself (something I'd be doing anyway given the problem you're having).

 

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but boo hoo on not wanting to hurt feelings. Unless this guy is your boss at your day job, you need to take care of this or stop accepting compensation for playing. Accepting money means you are a professional musician, like it or not. By you (and your bandmates) refusing to take care of this you are all responsible for purposely doing a sub par job. It's just that simple. In what other business would you accept an equal partner destroying company property and purposefully harming business relationships and doing it 100% of the time?

 

Understand this will fix itself eventually and all the other solutions are likely worse than simply handling it like adults. People will stop coming, or leave early. Clubs wills stop booking you. Your gear will continue to break until you are bled dry and/or give up.

 

EDIT>>> Rereading this, you are not equal partners. The fact the PA system is yours makes you the "majority owner". If you want to blend into the woodwork and accept the problem as your band mates have, stop providing the PA system! Hire sound out. The pocket book pinch will be the first slap to everyone. Maybe the hired gun will be able to convince the guitar player to change his ways.

[minn12]

They know what a bad mix is, but it

[Tomm Williams]

They know what a bad mix is, but it

[W. M. Hellinger]

I love your cables, btw

[Marko]

Thanks Mr. Hellinger, sage advice as always.

Someone earlier asked if we'd lost bookings, and the answer is yes, I'm quite sure of it.

In this case, nobody else in the band is overly loud. Typically the drummer (my neighbor/buddy) can

[sharnrock]

The rating of a passive speaker system should be good for any frequency in the spec'd frequency response. So you should be able to input 500W at tweeter frequencies with no problems to the driver (done inside the spec of course). The reason it shouldn't do damage to the 80w tweeter in your example is that there will likely be somewhere close to a 10 dB pad going to the tweeter ... so in fact the tweeter could handle 800W in your example (generally speaking).

 

 

what is the fear with square waves then? Does it have nothing to do with the shape of the wave but just the amount of voltage coming out of the amp?

[W. M. Hellinger]

EDIT>>> Rereading this, you are not equal partners. The fact the PA system is yours makes you the "majority owner". If you want to blend into the woodwork and accept the problem as your band mates have, stop providing the PA system! Hire sound out. The pocket book pinch will be the first slap to everyone. Maybe the hired gun will be able to convince the guitar player to change his ways.

 

Been there, done this... and it took me awhile to realize:

 

1) I'm providing basically everything, so why is the guitarist getting away with his tomfoolerary?

 

2) If the guitarist is so "good", then why does he seemingly need me?

 

humm... I guess where the rubber hits the pavement is the mutual meeting of minds concerning my meeting point of his tomfoolerary vs. what I'm willing to provide to accomodate. I've since realized I don't need to undervalue my product, or overvalue his.

[abzurd]

 

Been there, done this... and it took me awhile to realize: 1) I'm providing basically everything, so why is the guitarist getting away with his tomfoolerary? 2) If the guitarist is so "good", then why does he seemingly need me? humm... I guess where the rubber hits the pavement is the mutual meeting of minds concerning my meeting point of his tomfoolerary vs. what I'm willing to provide to accommodate. I've since realized I don't need to undervalue my product, or overvalue his.

 

 

Right on brother! "Band leader" is not for the faint of heart. It's tough being a friend, band mate, and business partner. In my band I have evolved to be "the guy" - booker of gigs, negotiator of contracts, facilitator of details, orderer of business cards, posters, magnets, etc, practice holder, PA provider, lighting provider, sound guy, webmaster, travel agent, clothing coordinator... and it goes on and on. The rest of the guys need only to maintain their instruments, show up on time and know their stuff. It's still a 2 way street as I need them to be successful, but they "get it". They appreciate what I do and what it does for them financially. While we've been pretty stable, we've had a couple of personnel changes over the years. In those cases the rules were set at the audition..... No big amps allowed and any amp used will fit on a kick-back stand and be aimed at your ear hole. I realize we've been lucky in this regard, but it starts with setting then managing expectations.

[Miko Man]

Marko -- give yourself a pat on the back for looking within (as hard as that is) for the understanding of what needs to be done. It is much tougher to change your own way of dealing with things than it is to buy more or different gear.

 

I am inspired by your willingness to do the hard work of being willing to make changes starting with yourself. Mark C.

[Shaster]

Instead of buying a smaller amp I would consider getting a Driverack. When I do gigs where a DJ is present I put a stupid amount of limiting on the PA during their set. I also use different high pass settings.... whatever it takes. Saves my speakers and that's the bottom line.

It sounds like even with a good stage volume someone might be tempted to keep pusihing the faders, so a Driverack or a dedicated limiter and crossover might be money well spent.

As noted if the limiter in the amp is flexible enough you could just step things down there, but I seem to recall an issue with where in the gain structure that limiting takes place.

[abzurd]

Instead of buying a smaller amp I would consider getting a Driverack. When I do gigs where a DJ is present I put a stupid amount of limiting on the PA during their set. I also use different high pass settings.... whatever it takes. Saves my speakers and that's the bottom line. It sounds like even with a good stage volume someone might be tempted to keep pusihing the faders, so a Driverack or a dedicated limiter and crossover might be money well spent. As noted if the limiter in the amp is flexible enough you could just step things down there, but I seem to recall an issue with where in the gain structure that limiting takes place.

I changed my mind and agree 100% with this..... Oh, did I mention I have a mint condition Driverack I'm selling?

[agedhorse]

Underpowering your speakers won't keep him from pushing it harder. That will then lead to distortion which equals square wave clipping which equals DC which equals smoke. You own the system? Buy a limiter and break the knobs off or grow a set and put your foot down.

 

 

Ugh... clipping does not = DC

 

and you can't clip the GX-5 even if you try. The limiter is non-defeatable.

[agedhorse]

The rating of a passive speaker system should be good for any frequency in the spec'd frequency response. So you should be able to input 500W at tweeter frequencies with no problems to the driver (done inside the spec of course). The reason it shouldn't do damage to the 80w tweeter in your example is that there will likely be somewhere close to a 10 dB pad going to the tweeter ... so in fact the tweeter could handle 800W in your example (generally speaking).

 

 

Don, re-read your post as it's not accurate.

 

You can not drive the HF driver with 500 watts... generally the pad is in the 6-9dB range but there is also lift eq (passive)inserted which skews the power handling greatly... there may be no pad at all >10kHz. Also, the HF driver in those cabinets is good for about 35-40 watts RMS (thermal)

[agedhorse]

To answer your original question; with the Crown amp with the limiters engaged you shouldn't damage your pa speakers even with the board dimed.

 

 

Yay, correct answer. (provided he's not clipping the board or and processing before the amps.

 

Of course, turning down the master faders would accomplish the "same thing" without the squashed sound and the guitar would still be too loud.

 

I think Marko is looking at a poor solution for a problem that can't be won without making somebody butt-hurt.

[agedhorse]

Clipping an amp can destroy HF drivers because of the increased HF harmonics that change the power ratio sent to the HF driver. A clipped 1kHz signal is just full of 2k, 3k, 4k, (harmonics) etc.

[Gomer Pyle]

You could run the entire system through an Ashly CL52 Comp and no matter how much gain it was fed the sound would remain sweet and safe to the speakers and amp with the exception of clipping the board.

[Shaster]

I changed my mind and agree 100% with this..... Oh, did I mention I have a mint condition Driverack I'm selling?

Good one!

You've still got that PX? When all else fails they make nice rack blanks

Actually I find Driveracks have their place, but certainly not in everyone's rack.

[agedhorse]

Good one! You've still got that PX? When all else fails they make nice rack blanks Actually I find Driveracks have their place, but certainly not in everyone's rack.

If you know what you are doing, the DR's are a plentyfine product. If you don't know what you are doing, they make good rack fillers when unhooked.

[dboomer]

Don, re-read your post as it's not accurate. You can not drive the HF driver with 500 watts... )

 

 

You re-read it;)

 

I said 500w at tweeter frequencies ... not into the tweeter itself. So we're all clear I mean into the input jack. If you start cutting open boxes you are on your own.

[abzurd]

The driverack is just another tool. I've just found it's not one I need nor really care to use. Good powered speakers, good mics, good band mates not one upping each other for stage volume, and I guess my decent ear to adjust FOH EQ and the DR just wasn't adding anything but something else to fool around with.

[W. M. Hellinger]

I'm still of the experience that too loud of a guitarist isn't generally the only problem in it'self. I strongly suspect there's too much "me too" going on with the other band members in conjunction with the loud guitarist, and maybe the guitarist is hogging to ball too much.

Some possibly much needed work on dynamics could make a world of difference (and could take the band to a whole new level). Seldom is there a good technical solution to what's basically a craftsmanship problem.