Members CTGull Posted December 3, 2014 Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 I originally added this to an old long thread but I figured it deserved its own. I fix acoustic guitars as a hobby. A year ago our son told his music teacher that and she said that she had wanted to teach guitar in class but there was no budget to buy guitars. So I volunteered to find and fix donated acoustic guitars for our kids middle school music program. I put ads on FreeCycle, CraigsList and local Facebook groups. I got more responses than I expected. I repaired and delivered 10 last school year with 6 more to work on. I'm waiting for the teacher to get me strings so I can finish 8. I extended the offer to the other middle school in town, but getting string from either of them has been frustrating. I’m doing all the work (turning junk into playable instruments) and all I asked of them was to buy the strings. I’d really like to get these guitars out of my workshop, I have my own to work on. My Carlos story is about one of the guitars I was given for the school. I met a guy in a commuter parking lot and he reluctantly handed over his guitar that he's had since the early 80's. He said it is a great guitar but he hadn't used it in years and his wife convinced him to let it go. I took it home and scoffed at the tarnished brass nut, saddle and fret markers. It was a model 207. The nut and saddle action were high so I took some measurements and started sanding. THE NUT AND SADDLE ARE BRASS PLATED STEEL! Maybe some are solid brass but not this one. I sanded the bottom of the nut and replaced the saddle (TUSQ) and got the action down to where it was easy to play. And it sounded great!! Of all the guitars I’ve been given for the school, that was the only one I didn’t want to see go. To this day I still regret giving it to the school for kids to beat the crap out of. I may see it someday to repair. That brings me to my second, Carlos story. I won a Carlos acoustic on ShopGoodwill. $33 plus $20 for shipping. Yea, my wife is going to kill me for buying another guitar! And another project!!! The picture of the label was hard to read but I think it is a model 438, judging by other less fuzzy label pictures. It was impossible to tell what condition it was in, other than it looked like all the parts were there except one of the tuner knobs. It looks like the screw loosened and it fell off. I’ll find something in my boneyard. The nut and saddle in this one are not brass. Maybe they were replaced. Maybe I wasted $53 and this is a POS! I guess I’ll find out in a week. To be continued… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted December 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 I got the guitar in a huge box full of packing peanuts, like some kind of sick joke. They are everywhere, stuck to everything!!!! I filled 3 garbage bags with them!! The only way to get them out of the box was to dump them on the floor, then scoop them up with both hands. Half of them would stay stuck to my hands and come back out, sometimes pulling more out if I didn’t move quick enough. It took a loooong time to clean up this mess!! I intended on sending them a nastygram about their poor choice of packing materials. Then I opened the cheap cardboard case to find the strings a half inch off of the fretboard!! The neck is broken at the heel!!! I’m guessing they didn’t loosen the strings before shipping. The extra tension of the medium gage strings didn’t help much. A nastygram flowed like flames from my fingers!!! I demanded a full refund. The packing slip said returns had to be authorized and they do not refund shipping charges, so I expected then to say send it back but I’d have to pay for it. That would cost what the guitar cost me so it wouldn’t be worth it. I got a simple reply asking me to send the pictures to an email address. I was completely shocked to get an email a few minutes later saying I was fully refunded!!!! And an apology! WOW!!!! Now I’ve got $53 burning a hole in my PayPal account! What to buy next??? Last night I put 2 clamps on it to push the crack back together (heel and fretboard). No luck, the heel won’t seat back against the guitar. So I’m going to have to completely remove the neck, glue and pin the break and possibly reset the neck angle. All stuff I’ve never done. Should be interesting. To be continued… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 3, 2014 Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 Welcome to the forum, CT, and please do continue the story. I also buy old guitars and repair them for a local music program and do a lot of repairs for my music store - I'm willing to try to fix some of the poor little puppies that no one else will touch. I get to practice my lutherie skills and someone gets a playable guitar out of the deal. Neck removal and resetting is one of those skills that you can only learn by doing and it sounds like its time to build a steamer and give it a go. I'm assuming its some sort of glued joint, hopefully a simple dovetail and hopefully the glue is something that will release with heat and moisture. The crack is going to make it more difficult to press out the heel but if you can get it loose it should come apart OK. At that point you should be able to glue the heel back together - maybe a dowel or screw to reinforce it but frankly that's the way I build necks - two or three pieces of wood laminated together to build up the heel. Once you get it back in one piece you can reset it as usual. There are lots of good tutorials on removing and resetting necks - I built my steamer from an old espresso maker and I have a home made press for the heel (altho you don't really need it). On the off chance the neck is a bolt on, your repair will be easy (altho fixing the broken heel might be harder), on the chance it is a Spanish heel or if the glue is some sort of epoxy (like old Yamaha's) your repair might be impossible. Keep posting and keep fixing guitars - its a good thing you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted December 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 Thanks! I'm still not getting instant email notifications. Why doesn't this forum support that? The options are Off, On, On - Daily, On - Weekly. No On - Instant. I selected ON. It'll send me a notification when it feels like it??? The upper part of the heel is completely disconnected, the only thing holding the neck on is the fretboard. I'll heat that and pry it off, I've done that successfully a few times. There are no bolts inside, there goes that option. I've done 3 neck resets of bolt on Seagulls, never a glued on dovetail. I guess I'll find out what's holding on the heel after I disconnect the fretboard. I'll make a press if I need to. Not looking forward to steaming, I've heard too many bad things about it. Too many ways to screw up and damage the guitar or the finish. I've always used a 75W PAR 38 halogen bulb as a heat source to soften glue. It's worked fine on bridges and fretboards. But they are thinner and I'm prying them off with a thin flat blade. If I can put the disconnected neck back in place by hand and the neck angle is OK, I'll leave the remainder of the heel where it is. I suspect the neck angle will not be good though. I wasn't able to fully seat the neck with clamps but I was able to project the neck to the bridge with a straight edge. It was 3/16" below, not good. But the neck being out of position was affecting that measurement, the question is how much. I won't have time to work on it for the next 2 days. It'll have to wait until the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 3, 2014 Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 Well, as you know, the dovetail joint is really an elegant woodworking joint - it uses wedging action in several planes to pull itself together and the glue only holds is from not moving. I've actually seen pictures of people string up dovetail guitars in the white with no glue in the neck. Assuming the glue is hide or a good wood working glue like AR, the only way to get it apart is to pull the 15th fret, drill a hole down into the joint and inject steam (after you've loosened the f/b extension). Lots of discussion on the 'net on how to do it - I can supply pictures if you need. When I reset the neck on my old Yamaha it would not come apart with steam (which I knew going in) so I did the sawn off conversion to a bolt on. Its pretty brutal but it did make the old guitar very playable again. If you need information on that, I can also help. When I build guitars I use both dovetail and bolt on necks - I prefer the latter for ease of setting but sometimes a dovetail is necessary (I just built an archtop - there is no way to get inside to tighten bolts). If you do a few resets you'll see why the going rate is around 300 bucks - it frankly is a real pain to get right on an old guitar. I don't bother with the e-mail notifications. When you log in you will see if you have any messages or replies to any of your threads - that is all I use. There has been a lot of criticism of HC's forum software, I try to not let it bother me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted December 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 The problem with steaming a dovetail is how do you know what glue the guitar was built with? I have a lot of oddball guitars that probably were assembled with epoxy. I have a few old Yamaha's too, none that need a neck reset yet. I plan on doing a bolt on conversion some day. Any info you could send would be great! I file everything I find. I have a friend in Colorado who's been helping me. I have some pics of his Yamaha bolt on conversion. It seems there are some people who specialize in neck resets for certain guitars. They are real good at it. I'm not looking forward to trying it. It'll be a junk guitar that's probably assembled with epoxy and I'll kill it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted December 3, 2014 Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 I think the only way you really know is to try it. Most older guitars were assembled with glue that releases and most of us learned to do resets on old Hamonys and Kays and the like. I'm certainly not going to practice my chops on a vintage Martin or something like that. I did a no name mandolin early in my career - the neck popped of cleanly and when I built my mandolin I used a dovetail on it. Even modern glues will come apart with heat and steam - unfortunately I've been doing a fair number of bridges lately on nice new guitars - a Taylor and some PacRim instruments - that have Titebond or something similar. Yamahas have a reputation of using a glue that doesn't come apart with steam (I don't actually know if it is epoxy or just a water resistant glue like the new versions of Titebond), however there are reports by some folks that they have done resets just fine - often they say it takes a little more steam and pressure to get them apart. I tried that on mine - it wouldn't budge - so I went ahead and did the conversion. Here is a thread that I wrote at that time. http://www.harmonycentral.com/forum/forum/guitar/acapella-42/1313642- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 3, 2014 Members Share Posted December 3, 2014 Nothing to add but keep up the good work and keep us posted on your progress with the Carlos. We like acoustic guitar stories, especially with happy endings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted December 4, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 4, 2014 Thanks. I have PLENTY of acoustic guitar stories! As I said, I have a lot of cheap oddballs that you probably won't see anywhere. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have time to start typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted December 5, 2014 Author Members Share Posted December 5, 2014 I got the fretboard separated from the top. I got it 80% off and it seemed to be hung up in the middle, like I was hitting something solid so I drilled out the last fret marker and found a plastic plug. I drilled that out and found the top of the truss rod housing, no screw. I got out a bigger spatula and got the whole thing separated but the neck still won't come off. It wobbles up and down like it's still attached to something. I forced the heel crack open farther and I can see a white plastic dowel thru it and it's moving freely up and down. Then I feel inside and find there is a block under the fretboard extension that is moving up and down with it, and the top may be sandwiched in between. I got out my mirror and found 2 wedges glued to the sides of the block. I think the block is actually part of the neck and the wedges hold it in place. To remove this neck I'm going to have to separate those wedges from the neck. I'll need some kind of curved knife. I don't have anything so I'll have to check the flea market this weekend. This is turning into an abortion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted December 6, 2014 Members Share Posted December 6, 2014 . . . This is turning into an abortion! Sorry to hear the project is more difficult than you I suspected. Keep us posted. That said, you could probably find a less loaded word if you tried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted March 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2015 I should write an update. I left the guitar sitting in a horizontal rack for 2.5 months. Since I can't remove the neck without possibly destroying the guitar, I used epoxy and reattached the fretboard extension and heel. The next day I removed the heel cap, drilled and epoxied in a hardwood dowel, and epoxied the heel cap back on. Since the neck angle is less than idea, I also sanded 1/16" off the top of the bridge, ramped the pin holes and spray painted it gloss black. The next day I sanded and painted some more. The next day I dulled the paint with 0000 steel wool. Looks good. Pretty exciting eh!? Then the fun began. I found the E, A, D & G nut slots were low so I filled them with Corian "nut dust" that I made, with water thin SuperGlue. Then recut them with nut files. Then sanded 1/16" off the bottom of the saddle. I installed the old strings to check the action, which is about 1/32" higher than I'd like to see. It's been sitting there almost finished for the past month. I have to decide if I'm going to keep it or give it to the school. I've asked for strings a few times, over the past 2 months, to finish 5 guitars and still haven't gotten any. I'm getting very discouraged with finding and fixing guitars if they have no priority in getting me strings to finish them. I should write a post about trying the fix the neck angle of a near mint Ovation Applause AE128, with the thin plastic bowl body. The action was 3/16" at the 12th fret, the neck projected 1/16" below the bridge, neck relief good, very little saddle available. After a few months and a few failed attempts I finally had a breakthru last weekend. It may be salvageable after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 19, 2015 Members Share Posted March 19, 2015 Thanks for the update. Two minor comments - I would not give it to the school unless you are happy with it - the whole idea is to make it playable enough for someone to learn to play on. I do similar work - get old guitars and try to make them presentable for my local music program. Second comment on the bowl back Ovation - I'm pretty sure that they use epoxy for that neck joint - you may find that the only way to fix it is saw the neck off and convert it. If it is the kind with no sound hole (just the little holes in the upper bout) that may be impossible too - you need to be able to get inside the body. I'll be interested in seeing your breakthrough. Lastly, if you let me know the string gauges that you want to use I can probably supply them. I can get a sweetheart deal on some bulk Martin strings and could send you a few sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted March 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted March 19, 2015 My thoughts exactly. I never give a guitar to the school unless it is easily playable. I shoot for low E 3/32" max, typically 5/64" (with first fret pressed); and 5/64" max, 1/16" typ high E. I also set the nut action as low as possible and check for fret buzzes that creep up when you lower the action that much. Yes, I've read the Ovations are epoxied. I've also read do one in their right mind will take one in to do a neck reset. I found one guy who said he clamped the body in a fixture and put pressure on the neck around the 1st fret, to put tension on it for a day. Then heat the area around the neck block with a heat gun on low for 2 minutes, and let it sit for a day.. I designed and built a fixture and did this cycle 3 or 4 times with absolutely no change. Total fail! Then a couple of weeks a go I thought about leaving the guitar in the fixture for a week and see if it made any difference. After a week the neck projected 1/32" above the bridge!! I did a heat treatment and have left it for another week. We'll see this weekend if there is any more improvement. Once I get to 1/16" I'll leave it out of the fixture for a week and see if there is any movement back to where it was. I've used the same principle to flatten guitar tops, except it takes months in traction. Obviously solid tops respond faster, some plywood tops never move. I have 2 guitars in traction that have had no change in 2 or 3 months. One of these days I'm going to cut a neck off and convert it to a bolt on. All I need is the ambition and the right guitar. I'd like the schools to supply the strings so they have some investment into the guitars. Obviously they are very busy and the guitars are very low priority. I've gotten no feedback if they've ever been used. It's kind of sad. I put lots of effort into this with no known result. I'm setting them up with Silk & Steel strings if you'd like to donate. They are cheap, easy on the fingers and neck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeepEnd Posted March 19, 2015 Members Share Posted March 19, 2015 Thanks for the update and sorry the Carlos didn't turn out as you had hoped. I saw an old Ibanez PF5 on the local (St. Louis) CraigsList the other day for $35 and thought about buying it as a project. In the end I decided I didn't need to have that much fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted March 20, 2015 Members Share Posted March 20, 2015 Second comment on the bowl back Ovation - I'm pretty sure that they use epoxy for that neck joint - you may find that the only way to fix it is saw the neck off and convert it. If it is the kind with no sound hole (just the little holes in the upper bout) that may be impossible too - you need to be able to get inside the body. I'll be interested in seeing your breakthrough. NONONO! Don't do that. DON'T! For a long, long Time I thought that, too, that Ovations had an Epoxy-set neck with no option to separate the Neck from the Body, but that is NOT TRUE. Indeed, it is a fairly simple and straightforward Mortise/Tenon. The end of what you would call the neck block in the body is a glued on piece of veneer. It simply chips off with a chisel. You will find a bolt and a nut down there behind the glued-on piece of wood. Don't bother glueing it back, it won't work. Just leave it off. But Ovation Neck resets are almost as easy as Taylors. If it weren't for the fretboard tongue. But that works off wiith some heat and the usual thin spatula knife.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted March 20, 2015 Author Members Share Posted March 20, 2015 NONONO! Don't do that. DON'T! For a long, long Time I thought that, too, that Ovations had an Epoxy-set neck with no option to separate the Neck from the Body, but that is NOT TRUE. Indeed, it is a fairly simple and straightforward Mortise/Tenon. The end of what you would call the neck block in the body is a glued on piece of veneer. It simply chips off with a chisel. You will find a bolt and a nut down there behind the glued-on piece of wood. Don't bother glueing it back, it won't work. Just leave it off. But Ovation Neck resets are almost as easy as Taylors. If it weren't for the fretboard tongue. But that works off wiith some heat and the usual thin spatula knife.... I'll take a look this weekend. I thought it looked like a solid neck block but I don't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted March 21, 2015 Members Share Posted March 21, 2015 Please report back - I wan to know what you find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CTGull Posted March 21, 2015 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2015 This is a low end thin body Applause Ovation. The neck block looks to be a cheap piece of wood painted black, like everything else inside the guitar. No evidence of it having a veneer front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members katopp Posted March 23, 2015 Members Share Posted March 23, 2015 Apparently., there are differences between MiC, MiK and USA Ovations.MiC seem to be different....Usually, the Neck "Block" in Ovations is a V-Shaped profile with the tip of the V pointing to the neck.Inside you find two Bolts...I have looked inside my MiC Celebrity Ovation and there is a massive wood block.where the V-Profile used to be. Maybe there is something inside - did not have my strong neodymium magnets at hand to check. The MiK Ovation TX-Baritone has the V-Profile, but inside the V seems to be some plastic??? The USA Balladeer is currently unavailable as it is buried in its case. But I know how that looks like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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