DXR 12 or 15 w/Subs for mains

[OneEng]

Let us know when you get them in. I think you will be very pleased with the sound of your new rig.

[Al Poulin]

You will love the DXRs. All models in the line sound great (and similar) with only the low frequency response becoming more and more pronounced/extended as you move up to the bigger cabinets. It's really impressive how much performance Yamaha / Nexo are able to muster out of these cabs given the so-so components, which don't seem to be anything special. The processing is really, really good and transparent compared to some other cabs I've used.

Al

[Pro Sound Guy]

Originally Posted by Dookietwo

The basic analog electronic crossover that most use has a 24 db per octave (80 dB/decade) Linkwitz-Riley (L/R) filter which is defined by its 6db down point. Set the crossover at 100hz and at 100hz the signal is 6dbs down from the rest of the bandpass. Other filter types like Bissel may be defined by their 3db down point. Crossover with bissel filters set at 100 hz will have the freq. down 3dbs. Of course there is also Fir type filters which yield very steep slopes as the yamaha speakers have. The Order of filter type determines the slope. 1st order,2order,3rd etc yields different slopes. Mixed order slopes can also be used.
Needing to overlap or underlap or not to do it at all is all up to the overall frequency,phase,amplitude, and location of the drivers being summed.

I used Smaart software and find its a good tool to check and align drivers.
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/files/case3.pdf
http://www.rationalacoustics.com/files/case6.pdf
I tried aligning my Mains to a very loud drum monitor before and it did work quite well.

Some good basic reading here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_c...order_or_slope

I did find a Underlapped alignment paper.
http://www.excelsior-audio.com/Publi..._Alignment.pdf

Dookietwo

Edit: Undercool , Sorry to go off topic!

Although yes indeed overlapping is used and is commmon in getting it right, and using smaart is the way to do it...but gents I think you blew the OP
out of the coversation because im thinking there is no clue as to what you are talking about by the OP.
The most important thing here is the guy chooses the right loudspeakers for his application
and uses an active eq between his subs and mains.

[agedhorse]

Over/underlapping is common if you don't design the system right to begin with (in many cases, not all). It depends very much on the driver's out of band response. If it is rapidly rising or falling at the crossover, and especially if the crossover slopes are not steep or the Q is very low, then over-underlapping is one option to FIX the acoustic problem caused by the issues with the driver's response.

[OneEng]

+1 and +1

[undercool]

This is my takeaway:
Console --> dual 31 EQs --> Active Crossover --> a) MAINS b) Amp & Subs. Crossing over at or about 120 or maybe 100. Cutoff at 35 (amp setting).

One last question/takeaway: GENERALLY, I would go with 12s on top instead of the 15s because they deliver on the midrange and will give us a good mix with the subs. HOWEVER - what I am reading and hearing here to some extent is that these particular speakers in the 15" versions still deliver on the midrange, and will also (obviously) deliver more on the low end. If the mids don't suffer (do they with these?), for $100 more each shouldn't I go wtih 15s?

OH, and: Sound Measurement Acoustical Analysis Real Time. Ya didnt' completely lose me. ;-)

[agedhorse]

12's dont necessarily deliver better midrange, but generally they are smaller, lighter and less expensive for the same or better performance.

[RiddimRider]

Originally Posted by undercool

I've read through the content here on these speakers and after hearing them last night at GC am going to pick up a pair.
We currently have some budget Peavey 2x15+HF mud machines as mains, so we are really looking forward to the change. Running two 18" subs underneath.

I've read enough to understand that mains with 15s are not friendly to clarity and vocals cutting through. But my concern is that the 12s on top won't give us the power/punch that we want.

We're a rock / mashup / absurd 90s rap song band. PA carrys the full band - 2 guitars, keys, some bass, kick, snare... sometimes the full kit depending on how we're feeling. And vox, of course.

At $650, the 12s are much more what I'm allowing myself to lust after.

We recently played a few gigs at the pro football stadium here in town before a game and they ran subs and 12s on top. Sounded fantastic and full. So I'm thinking we'll be good. But need input. 12 or 15?

Help me spend my hard earned $$$. :-)

We just upgraded our mains from Yammie S115IV's to the DSR12's. What a difference in vocal clarity. The other surprising aspect of the DSR112 is the bass response, it was surprisingly good. We're using these as FOH for a classic country band, and we rarely mic the kick or bass. I've used a sub and it definetly rounds out the sound, but again I am very impressed with the bass response on these 12's. For most of our gigs we just go with the 12's. Much easier on the back

[Dookietwo]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Over/underlapping is common if you don't design the system right to begin with (in many cases, not all). It depends very much on the driver's out of band response. If it is rapidly rising or falling at the crossover, and especially if the crossover slopes are not steep or the Q is very low, then over-underlapping is one option to FIX the acoustic problem caused by the issues with the driver's response.

Right. Its all about the drivers and how you want them to interact. Look at the tunings for JBL Srx722 tops and 728 subs.
Speaker System: SRX722 bi-amp with SRX728S

Date: 03/09/07
Processor: dbx DriveRack 260
Output Name SUB LOW HIGH SUB LOW HIGH
Input Source A A A B B B
Output Gain 0.0dB 0dB -10 dB 0.0dB 0dB -10 dB
Output Limit
Output Delay 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms
Output Delay Link
Polarity NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL
Output Lo Shape BUT18 LR48 LR48 BUT18 LR48 LR48
Output Lo Frequency 30.4Hz 74.3Hz 1.155KHz 30.4Hz 74.3Hz 1.155KHz
Output Hi Shape LR48 LR48 BUT6 LR48 LR48 BUT6
Output Hi Frequency 88.4Hz 1.122KHz OUT 88.4Hz 1.122KHz OUT
Output EQ1 Type BELL BELL BELL BELL BELL BELL
Output EQ1 Frequency 76 Hz 648Hz 1.63KHz 76 Hz 648Hz 1.63KHz
Output EQ1 +/- 1.5 dB -4.0dB -1.5dB 1.5 dB -4.0dB -1.5dB
Output EQ1 Bandwidth Q: 3.5 Q: 2 Q: 3 Q: 3.5 Q: 2 Q: 3
Output EQ2 Type H-SHELF 9 H-SHELF 9
Output EQ2 Frequency 6.54KHz 6.54KHz
Output EQ2 +/- 5.5 dB 5.5 dB

The subs go up to 74.3 hz while the tops go down to 88.4hz. On paper there is an underlap there. Its not that they are bad speaker or a flawed design its just this is what is needed to make the system well designed.

Same speakers but with passive Mid/High split.
SRX722 passive with SRX718S
Speaker System: SRX722 passive with SRX718S Date: 03/09/07
Processor: dbx DriveRack 260
Output Name SUB LOW SUB LOW
Input Source A A B B
Output Gain 4.3dB 0dB 4.3dB 0dB
Output Limit
Output Delay 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms
Output Delay Link
Polarity NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL
Output Lo Shape BUT18 LR48 BUT18 LR48
Output Lo Frequency 30.4Hz 74.3Hz 30.4Hz 74.3Hz
Output Hi Shape LR48 LR48 LR48 LR48
Output Hi Frequency 81.1Hz OUT 81.1Hz OUT
Output EQ1 Type BELL BELL
Output EQ1 Frequency 68 Hz 68 Hz
Output EQ1 +/- 2 dB 2 dB
Output EQ1 Bandwidth Q: 5 Q: 5
Output EQ2 Type BELL BELL
Output EQ2 Frequency 41.7 Hz 41.7 Hz
Output EQ2 +/- 1.5 dB 1.5 dB
Output EQ2 Bandwidth Q: 5 Q: 5

Now the top goes down to 81.1hz. This could be the interaction of the passive crossover. Also note the difference in crossover type and slope. Note again the difference types of filters and slopes.

Last is
SRX712M passive Top with SRX728S sub

Speaker System: SRX712M passive with SRX728S Date: 03/09/07
Processor: dbx DriveRack 260
Output Name SUB LOW SUB LOW
Input Source A A A A
Output Gain -4.3 dB 0dB -4.3 dB 0dB
Output Limit
Output Delay 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms 0.0 ms
Output Delay Link
Polarity NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL NORMAL
Output Lo Shape BUT18 BUT18 BUT18 BUT18
Output Lo Frequency 30.4Hz 88.9Hz 30.4Hz 88.9Hz
Output Hi Shape LR48 BUT6 LR48 BUT6
Output Hi Frequency 85.9Hz OUT 85.9Hz OUT
Output EQ1 Type BELL BELL
Output EQ1 Frequency 76 Hz 76 Hz
Output EQ1 +/- 1.5 dB 1.5 dB

In this case the subs go up to 88.9 hz but the tops go down to 85.9hz. This is the overlap that JBL recommends to tune these 2 speakers together. This works together with the different filter types and slopes. The numbers in themselves don't tell the whole story.

Overlapping or Underlapping is very common. These systems sound better because of it. It just has to be done right.

Dookietwo

[agedhorse]

Then look at the LF eq in the first example, looks like 2 wrongs make a right...

(There are also errors in the 712 tunings, I was able to obtain "better" response by using more conventional and simpler filters.

Not saying it won't work, but I am saying that there may be a better or simpler or more direct approach.

For the typical user here on this forum, I would recommend against underlapping or overlapping unless the proper test equipment and some experience with what is happening electro-acousticly is used. Sometimes things can appear to be something that they are not. I think you understand what I am getting at.

[Dookietwo]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

( Sometimes things can appear to be something that they are not. I think you understand what I am getting at.

These are JBL factory settings using a DriveRack 260. If a person is using a Omni Drive or Peavey VSX then the settings could or may be different.

Sorry again to pull the tread off topic.
Have a good New Years gig everyone!

Doug

[agedhorse]

Also, it should be noted that the tunings in a powered speaker are often different and based on a different set of criteria (reliability metrics become much more important as warranty costs are harder to avoid on an integrated product). A good example is the VRX-918SP which uses a 1500 watt (peak) power rated amp, which is considerably below their "recommended" value but as I say time and again, what they do carries more weight than what they say.

Originally Posted by Dookietwo

These are JBL factory settings using a DriveRack 260. If a person is using a Omni Drive or Peavey VSX then the settings could or may be different.

Sorry again to pull the tread off topic.
Have a good New Years gig everyone!

Doug

[OneEng]

Originally Posted by RiddimRider

We just upgraded our mains from Yammie S115IV's to the DSR12's. What a difference in vocal clarity. The other surprising aspect of the DSR112 is the bass response, it was surprisingly good. We're using these as FOH for a classic country band, and we rarely mic the kick or bass. I've used a sub and it definetly rounds out the sound, but again I am very impressed with the bass response on these 12's. For most of our gigs we just go with the 12's. Much easier on the back

I have a pair of the DSR112's as well. I used them one night to do an outdoor gig for a friend who insisted he didn't want a sub. I put the bass into them but not the kick). I was tickling the limiters all night long, but you could hear good clear vocals and round bass notes >100 ft away.

I A/B'd them against my Klipsch KP301's (3-way 15"). The DSR's get blown away pretty badly from these speakers in the LF department. I think that the DSR112's may be a match for a poor 15, but are no match for a good one

I haven't heard anyone A/B the DSR112 to the DXR12. The DSR's certainly have better drivers and specs (and cost more accordingly), but I haven't done the sound test.

[undercool]

Well, we picked them up. We had some 12 vs 15 / will we ever not use subs talk and the only way we go sub free is two of us with acoustics. 12s won.

Fired them up and took a run at them with my ipod. VERY happy with the speakers. Granted, it is like a starving man telling you how how good the food is, but I DO have enough of an ear to know what I'm hearing. We ran Sade, Pearl Jam, Eminem, Linkin Park, JayZ and a bunch of other mixed up stuff thru them. Absolutely blown away on what we have been missing. Ran some vox thru them live and again VERY happy. Will get some vid of our next gig on the 4th. Update. THANK YOU to all of you.

[OneEng]

Originally Posted by undercool

Well, we picked them up. We had some 12 vs 15 / will we ever not use subs talk and the only way we go sub free is two of us with acoustics. 12s won.

Fired them up and took a run at them with my ipod. VERY happy with the speakers. Granted, it is like a starving man telling you how how good the food is, but I DO have enough of an ear to know what I'm hearing. We ran Sade, Pearl Jam, Eminem, Linkin Park, JayZ and a bunch of other mixed up stuff thru them. Absolutely blown away on what we have been missing. Ran some vox thru them live and again VERY happy. Will get some vid of our next gig on the 4th. Update. THANK YOU to all of you.

Acoustics will work wonderfully through a pair of DXR12's so your decision is a sound one even if you do solo's or duo's.

I was pretty sure that you were going to be blown away considering the speakers you were currently using.

As an aside, I did a 50th birthday party for a band 2 nights ago. The band members there were all >50 and used to having no low end (more of a guitar band with acoustic drums thing). The bass player was using a 15W single 10" combo amp that weighed about 20 lbs.

I was asked not to bring a sub, but convinced them that since they were space constrained, that the sub took less floor space than a stand would and presented less of a trip hazard

The band discussed back and fourth about even putting the bass into the system, but I finally won out and convinced them .... (but no kick).

These guys all hated the rig at setup stating that they would never use powered speakers :rollseyes:

After the first song, the entire basement was dancing and having a great time. Many of the people in the audience that had heard the band many times said they had never sounded so good. I still had to keep discussing with the band that the bass had to stay up (they could hear lots of bass on stage so they just assumed it was too loud .... which isn't strange since they were used to having only a tiny bass amp anyway).

Another side effect was that the lead singer kept getting quieter and quieter since he could hear himself (he was near a FOH speaker).

So at the end of the night I got mixed reviews. The band wasn't overjoyed, but they kept any criticism to themselves since the entire crowd told them it sounded better than they had ever heard them.

I simply can't understand how so many musicians refuse to move forward with technology. Powered speakers are going to make dinosaurs out of passive speakers for MI grade gear IMHO. Just look at the sound quality difference between the powered and unpowered versions of the ElectroVoice ELX 12's as an example.

There also seems to be an old school ear issue as well. Bands that have grown used to "their sound" being loud guitars and little else seem to have an issue with kick, bass and vocals being on top.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing the results of your new DXR12's! I am sure your audience will be delighted.