Members Miko Man Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette . As for the subs and tops configuration, that I have to just flatly disagree with. I can literally see NO benefit whatsoever for a band like mine having four subs and two tops, as opposed to four tops and two subs, none. I don't see any reasoning behind this suggestion at all. CV, I believe that the suggestions that you may want four subs outdoors (assuming that you are using two, indoors, to full effect) is not a comment on your band's musical style or your mixing ability, but based on the physics of going from a "quarter space" condition indoors to a "half space" condition outdoors. The doubling of the subs merely offsets the SPL loss from the lack of reflected sound affecting SPL at the audience location. If you have lots of sub "headroom" indoors, then you may not need anything else outdoors. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette . As for the subs and tops configuration, that I have to just flatly disagree with. I can literally see NO benefit whatsoever for a band like mine having four subs and two tops, as opposed to four tops and two subs, none. I don't see any reasoning behind this suggestion at all. CV, I believe that the suggestions that you may want four subs outdoors (assuming that you are using two, indoors, to full effect) is not a comment on your band's musical style or your mixing ability, but based on the physics of going from a "quarter space" condition indoors to a "half space" condition outdoors. The doubling of the subs merely offsets the SPL loss from the lack of reflected sound affecting SPL at the audience location. If you have lots of sub "headroom" indoors, then you may not need anything else outdoors. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 I really don't run as sub heavy as many hereabouts but outdoors my "big" subs have about the total output of four XLF's (above 50 Hz anyways) and can barely keep up with my pair of RCF 310A's (which have about the same output as PRX612M's). A pair of XLF's is fine for 300 indoors at concert levels if you're not running too bass heavy and don't mind tickling their limiters a bit, OK for that outdoors as well at the lower levels permissible in a typical public space ("family friendly" non-concert level 90 dbc or less). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 I really don't run as sub heavy as many hereabouts but outdoors my "big" subs have about the total output of four XLF's (above 50 Hz anyways) and can barely keep up with my pair of RCF 310A's (which have about the same output as PRX612M's). A pair of XLF's is fine for 300 indoors at concert levels if you're not running too bass heavy and don't mind tickling their limiters a bit, OK for that outdoors as well at the lower levels permissible in a typical public space ("family friendly" non-concert level 90 dbc or less). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 It depends entirely on the type of music, the choices made when mixing, and personal preferences. MY personal preferences, as well as those of my clients, is totally happy with 1 top per and even 2 tops per sub in many instances. The clients pay the bills, and have never complained, and I am not cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 It depends entirely on the type of music, the choices made when mixing, and personal preferences. MY personal preferences, as well as those of my clients, is totally happy with 1 top per and even 2 tops per sub in many instances. The clients pay the bills, and have never complained, and I am not cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 Yup, "it depends" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 Yup, "it depends" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 2, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse It depends entirely on the type of music, the choices made when mixing, and personal preferences. MY personal preferences, as well as those of my clients, is totally happy with 1 top per and even 2 tops per sub in many instances. The clients pay the bills, and have never complained, and I am not cheap. I agree with both you and your clients. I have done outdoor gigs without subs...well, let me qualify that. My previous sound man has a pair of horrifying Behringer subs which I swear are nothing but 100 pound paperweights. The bass and kick outdoors sounded better our of the 15" drivers in all of my old MR805 and MR835's than they did from the alleged subs. We played an outdoor festival in the Vanderbuilt in Eastern Long Island and there had to be about 1,000 people there. My old sound man mixed all the bands, and while the mix was awful, nobody complained about the volume and you could definitely hear bass and kick.I am sure that my new gear will sound ten times as good as what I have now and my present system sounds fine without those God Awful subs.My point is that indoors or outdoors, as long as it isn't a huge festival, I cannot, for one second, imagine needing more rig than four 612m tops and two XLF subs. And what I think a lot of people are forgetting is that when my band starts playing huge festivals (the one we played that I mentioned above was atypical) I won't be using my own PA. Production companies that put on these huge gigs ALWAYS have their own sound companies coming in anyway. I have been in negotiations with some NY area festival producers, and they all have guys with way more gear than I have or will be buying. So I honestly think that four subs is not only overkill for my band, but absurdly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 2, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse It depends entirely on the type of music, the choices made when mixing, and personal preferences. MY personal preferences, as well as those of my clients, is totally happy with 1 top per and even 2 tops per sub in many instances. The clients pay the bills, and have never complained, and I am not cheap. I agree with both you and your clients. I have done outdoor gigs without subs...well, let me qualify that. My previous sound man has a pair of horrifying Behringer subs which I swear are nothing but 100 pound paperweights. The bass and kick outdoors sounded better our of the 15" drivers in all of my old MR805 and MR835's than they did from the alleged subs. We played an outdoor festival in the Vanderbuilt in Eastern Long Island and there had to be about 1,000 people there. My old sound man mixed all the bands, and while the mix was awful, nobody complained about the volume and you could definitely hear bass and kick.I am sure that my new gear will sound ten times as good as what I have now and my present system sounds fine without those God Awful subs.My point is that indoors or outdoors, as long as it isn't a huge festival, I cannot, for one second, imagine needing more rig than four 612m tops and two XLF subs. And what I think a lot of people are forgetting is that when my band starts playing huge festivals (the one we played that I mentioned above was atypical) I won't be using my own PA. Production companies that put on these huge gigs ALWAYS have their own sound companies coming in anyway. I have been in negotiations with some NY area festival producers, and they all have guys with way more gear than I have or will be buying. So I honestly think that four subs is not only overkill for my band, but absurdly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 CV ... what Miko Man said It has been my experience that outside gigs literally suck up the low end.On the DSR's.... well, I have said it before. You simply have to go hear them yourself. This may be somewhat of a problem since Yamaha is moving toward the DXR's and a quick search in my area shows that there aren't any around the metro Detroit area any more (Chicago has them if I wanted to drive 211 miles ).Sonically, I felt that the DSR112's were more lively, punchy, and just seemed to have more useable output than the PRX612's. I used the channel eq to get both speakers to the best sound I could get out of them and then turned up the volume to see how well they held on to that tone.I did like a few things better about the PRX612's. They are lighter (36lbs vs 47lbs), they have a more flexible pole mount, they look better, and they would match my XLF's visually.I really did go into the shop thinking I was going to be going home with a pair of PRX612's, so it wasn't like I was pre-disposed to Yamaha speakers .... quite the opposite.Now, having said all that, there was absolutely nothing bad about the PRX612's. They are a very good speaker. I know several bands that use them around here while I am the only one I know that uses the DSR112's... and I don't take any offense to anyone disagreeing with my opinion. I think that it is healthy to have respectful debates on any number of topics. I enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 CV ... what Miko Man said It has been my experience that outside gigs literally suck up the low end.On the DSR's.... well, I have said it before. You simply have to go hear them yourself. This may be somewhat of a problem since Yamaha is moving toward the DXR's and a quick search in my area shows that there aren't any around the metro Detroit area any more (Chicago has them if I wanted to drive 211 miles ).Sonically, I felt that the DSR112's were more lively, punchy, and just seemed to have more useable output than the PRX612's. I used the channel eq to get both speakers to the best sound I could get out of them and then turned up the volume to see how well they held on to that tone.I did like a few things better about the PRX612's. They are lighter (36lbs vs 47lbs), they have a more flexible pole mount, they look better, and they would match my XLF's visually.I really did go into the shop thinking I was going to be going home with a pair of PRX612's, so it wasn't like I was pre-disposed to Yamaha speakers .... quite the opposite.Now, having said all that, there was absolutely nothing bad about the PRX612's. They are a very good speaker. I know several bands that use them around here while I am the only one I know that uses the DSR112's... and I don't take any offense to anyone disagreeing with my opinion. I think that it is healthy to have respectful debates on any number of topics. I enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 The DSR is indeed another very viable option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 2, 2013 Members Share Posted January 2, 2013 The DSR is indeed another very viable option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse The DSR is indeed another very viable option. How would you rate the PRX612m against the DSR112? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette How would you rate the PRX612m against the DSR112? Fairly close except for the weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse Fairly close except for the weight. Would you say that one is better, albeit even just a little better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette Would you say that one is better, albeit even just a little better? It depends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse It depends... On? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Koopdaddy Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette On? The room/space, your ears, your back, the source, the stakeholders, etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by Koopdaddy The room/space, your ears, your back, the source, the stakeholders, etc I am talking from a pure sound perspective, irrespective of size and weight issues. I know it is a more complex issue than that, and I also am well aware that I am grossly over-thinking this, but since I am probably only a few weeks away from getting into a system, I have still not ruled out anything, though I am leaning heavily toward four PRX612m's (two per side) and two 618XLF subs with a SL 24.4.2 mixer. So if I am still asking "what sounds better" to you guys, it is because I just want to make sure I get the best gear I can for my band, which is why I created this thread. This is obviously a decision I am going to have to live with for as much as several years, so perhaps a little over-thinking isn't the worst thing in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by Koopdaddy The room/space, your ears, your back, the source, the stakeholders, etc I am talking from a pure sound perspective, irrespective of size and weight issues. I know it is a more complex issue than that, and I also am well aware that I am grossly over-thinking this, but since I am probably only a few weeks away from getting into a system, I have still not ruled out anything, though I am leaning heavily toward four PRX612m's (two per side) and two 618XLF subs with a SL 24.4.2 mixer. So if I am still asking "what sounds better" to you guys, it is because I just want to make sure I get the best gear I can for my band, which is why I created this thread. This is obviously a decision I am going to have to live with for as much as several years, so perhaps a little over-thinking isn't the worst thing in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Maybe you don't have this where you live but hereabouts JBL looks like it sounds better to most folks and has better resale value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 3, 2013 Author Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Originally Posted by RoadRanger Maybe you don't have this where you live but hereabouts JBL looks like it sounds better to most folks and has better resale value. That is absolutely one important factor. JBL gear has always had a high resale value. I live in NYC and also (like everyone else) have access to Craigslist and eBay if I decide I grow out of whatever choice I make now. But still, it is important to hear everyone weigh in on the relative sound quality in the class I have chosen. Here is what I have gleaned so far, for what it's worth about this class of cabinets:1. The PRX tops above the XLF subs are the ones that most people here believe sounds best in the class.2. Cabinets that are 12" + horn seem to pair better with 18" subs and are better for vocal clarity, and if you are always going to use a sub, it is best to get the 12" based tops instead of the 15" top, but if you will do some gigs without subs, then better to have the 15" cabs.3. A few people think that the QSC K and particularly the KW cabinets sound a little better, but others believe they are harsh on the highs at high volume. Still, this seems to be something that can be EQ'd out with relative ease.4. One person, so far, has said that he believes the DSR112 is the best sounding cabinet in this class.5. Regardless of the differences in tastes, most people in this forum universally believe that an end user looking for this class of speaker will probably be happy whether choosing K's, KW's, DSR's, or PRX's.That about cover it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 I think you have hit on the definition of "functional equivalent" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.