Members Vito Corleone Posted September 4, 2014 Members Share Posted September 4, 2014 Likely true and I'll always defer to your and others extensive experience on all things pro audio. However, I know that two of my customers would not even let you set up a traditional FOH position in their venue as it would require running the snake through the restaurant and the mix position would take away seating from paying customers (of course, to be honest, the pay is so minimal I doubt you'd be the least bit interested anyway). That said, these (cover) bands are really quite good, draw enthusiastic crowds, and greatly appreciate my iPad services -- not to mention that self mixing IEMs is also quickly becoming the norm in these parts. For hobbyists like ourselves these rapidly evolving digital consoles are a godsend. At most of the private events my band plays, it's almost always a PITA and inconvenience to try and figure out where to put a sound table out in the middle of their event and how to run a snake to it. And even during those times where it's not a big deal, it still often looks obtrusive. The digital boards that can be control remotely by an engineer roaming the room with an iPad are a godsend for these sorts of venues. I'm certain that for large concert events, large physical mixers will remain commonplace for years to come. I'm also just as certain that they will virtually disappear from the smaller band/venue markets within ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted September 4, 2014 Members Share Posted September 4, 2014 The nice thing about having a separate controller is everyone can then have it the way they want it. And pay for it accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted September 4, 2014 Members Share Posted September 4, 2014 The nice thing about having a separate controller is everyone can then have it the way they want it. And pay for it accordingly. Yep. I can certainly see this coming sooner rather than later. A single "brain" that can be controlled with a remote app on a computing device of your choosing, or connected either wirelessly or wired to a physical interface that has no brains other than the ability to communicate physical changes to the brain (and vise versa). I really don't see the need to remove the physical I/O from the brain (other than adding I/O since it doesn't make sense to have 2 boxes when one would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 4, 2014 Members Share Posted September 4, 2014 Does anyone (yet) make a physical controller that connects via wi-fi to a brain? One of the biggest nuisances for many situations is dealing with a snake. I don't know what the market size would be, but I imagine some people would like a physical controller with some degree of mobility or at least not connected to a snake you have to duct tape down across the entire room.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted September 4, 2014 Members Share Posted September 4, 2014 Eh, well, I'll start a thread with what I'm using now (01v96 w iPad) but if more than 1 tech has to use a console then physical faders are a must. A combination of physical and iPad seems like a nice trade off, again it's a workflow thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2014 Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 Funny, I have a show coming up where they must have an analog console, so the sound company that's bringing in the rig is renting my FOH console and splitter snake since they don't have any digital consoles. The FOH guy was not willing to negotiate and use a digital console, and the analog console he was carrying on the tour (an older Crest Century or GX/GTX I think) was headed back to his shop via freight forwarder as this is the last date of the tour and he flys home. This kind of caught ne off guard. The monitor guy is using a digital comsole however. The world is a strange place eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members witesol Posted September 5, 2014 Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 I don't have much interest in this product for what I do. I can see this being a great IEM rig brain. Perhaps if I did primarily corporate events or shows where one cannot set up a proper FOH, it would make sense. nearly everything I do can accommodate a console and proper FOH. deal breakers for me mixing on a surface:no talk back...that's bigI like to have 4-8 fingers on multiple faders quite oftenslow response time of virtual faders. often, surface type control is difficult in daylightsometimes the function doesn't go to the page I want on an iPad type control...tap, tap tap..I have to take in consideration battery life and/or AC powerwifi bandwidth and future seems scary. I could see it being relatively easy for Presonus to take an AI2442 board for instance and make a physical control surface. Are not the knobs, faders and controls all encoders anyhow? take off the need for any preamps, XLR, TRS, A/D etc and maybe they could make a pretty cool control surface. ..just spitballin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted September 5, 2014 Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 Does anyone (yet) make a physical controller that connects via wi-fi to a brain? Wi-Fi would be way too risky but wireless would be nice. With Wi-Fi there is no expectation of "real-time" control so besides the latency of the controller and the latency of the brain you could be adding a half second on more, way more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted September 5, 2014 Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 Wi-Fi would be way too risky but wireless would be nice. With Wi-Fi there is no expectation of "real-time" control so besides the latency of the controller and the latency of the brain you could be adding a half second on more, way more. You're right. And that's really what I've meant. I think I've just gotten to the point where I use the term "wi-fi" for all things wireless. As silly and incorrect as that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pro Sound Guy Posted September 5, 2014 Members Share Posted September 5, 2014 Ah yes the brain latency. Good one Don! Analog FOH and digital monitor console... How does that latency effect things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted September 6, 2014 Members Share Posted September 6, 2014 I couldn't stand mixing on a flat touch surface with NO tactile controls at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted September 6, 2014 Members Share Posted September 6, 2014 While I prefer an actual console it isn't the worst thing in the world to mix on an iPad. I find myself using the iPad to walk around and mix out front, when I get back to FOH I'll make an adjustment either on the iPad or console 50% of the time. I can navigate the 01v96 faster than an iPad since the iPad requires more swipe left/right to get to all 32 channels, but it still isn't bad. If the only control surface is the iPad then I must have input metering on every channel and reliable dynamics and eq on every I/O.ts all about workflow, if it works for you then great. If not then there are plenty of other options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mshifflett Posted September 6, 2014 Members Share Posted September 6, 2014 Wi-Fi would be way too risky but wireless would be nice. With Wi-Fi there is no expectation of "real-time" control so besides the latency of the controller and the latency of the brain you could be adding a half second on more, way more. It could be done with a wireless bridge. We use Ubiquiti 5GHz NanoStations configured to act like a wireless bridge and seldom see over 2 or 3ms latency. Of course the thing you would have to worry about would be interference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddeastman Posted September 7, 2014 Members Share Posted September 7, 2014 Using touch control screens vs a real-world mixer requires you to constantly look at your control surface while you adjust to make sure you're moving the fader icon; a fader allows you to just listen. On a control surface, you may have to punch the surface two or three times before it registers; a real-world button on a mixer, unless broken, will generally work with a single proper punch. Contemporary mixers seem to have gotten us used to punching all kinds of buttons and rolling through menus, but there is something to be said for the simplicity of reaching for a knob, the location already learned via muscle memory, and affecting an immediate change. It seems Presonus has evolved the software to the point that a look and two taps can put you anywhere you need to be. If the software, the interfacing, and the hardware remain robust and dependable, this is a good deal, especially for 32x16/25bus-channels at $2K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members voicemaster Posted September 7, 2014 Members Share Posted September 7, 2014 anyone know the release date for these mixer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted September 7, 2014 Members Share Posted September 7, 2014 The only touch screen controls I have problems with are the mutes that are at the bottom of the X32 Mix app. For some reason, these seem to be problematic and operate as you have suggested. Everything else (especially the sliders) are very reactive. I can easily hold my thumb on a slider and listen while I move it without any issues. The X32 Mix app isn't as nice to operate the PEQ's on as the Mackie which has the big circles to catch your drag and pinch motions around, but as you say, the evolution of the tablet as a mix interface is a work in progress.... one which we will see lots of great improvements in over the next few years. Meanwhile, walking around the venue to adjust FOH is never going to happen with a physical 32 channel desk regardless of any improvements made to the UI There are plenty of use cases where a tablet is simply a better option to mix with. Mixer OEM's can ignore this at their own peril just as Blockbuster and Boarders Books did when the digital age came upon them IMHO. In rebuttal to my own line of argument, I personally agonized over weather I should go with the X32 Compact (which they had on sale at only $200.00 more than the X32 Rack when I made my purchase). It was primarily the lack of physical control surface that had me terrified..... and I am among the most aggressive of first adopters. For me, the goal of minimizing my setup and tear down time, reducing the size and weight for load in/out, and minimizing the stage footprint led me into a solution that I was not that comfortable with. Now, having used this solution for nearly a year, I feel quite confident in my ability to handle any show with it. .... but then, I am one of the most aggressive of first adopters. I can see how this is a tough sell to much of the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted September 7, 2014 Members Share Posted September 7, 2014 In a few year when there are a bunch if different companies making products like this the choice will be between straight up function of the app. Whose to say you couldn't make a a yamaha styled layout and then be able to switch to a presonus layout with a fat channel etc... The rack box would be the same 16/8 or 32/16 or whatever. Just thinking out loud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted September 7, 2014 Members Share Posted September 7, 2014 If the other vendors published their interface as Behringer does, this would be possible today. This is why there is already a 3rd party app for the X32 line on Android (Mixing Station). You are right. It would be quite easy to create a program where the GUI was seperated from the interface protocol that talks to the physical mixer. This is no different than how all programs today print through the windows API, but all have different drivers. From the application that is printing something, it doesn't make any difference WHAT printer it is printing to since it is printing to the windows OS layer API. Having said this, the GUI and remote tablet interface may well be a commodity; however, the algorithms that create the verbs, compression, mix buss timing and phase, etc, etc, are not. These are the secret sauce that makes or breaks a mixer with respect to sound quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted September 8, 2014 Members Share Posted September 8, 2014 Using touch control screens vs a real-world mixer requires you to constantly look at your control surface while you adjust to make sure you're moving the fader icon; a fader allows you to just listen. On a control surface' date=' you may have to punch the surface two or three times before it registers; a real-world button on a mixer, unless broken, will generally work with a single proper punch. Contemporary mixers seem to have gotten us used to punching all kinds of buttons and rolling through menus, but there is something to be said for the simplicity of reaching for a knob, the location already learned via muscle memory, and affecting an immediate change. It seems Presonus has evolved the software to the point that a look and two taps can put you anywhere you need to be. If the software, the interfacing, and the hardware remain robust and dependable, this is a good deal, especially for 32x16/25bus-channels at $2K.[/quote'] Todd: I agree that all things being equal (which they're not) I strongly prefer physical faders. And yes, at first I had to look a lot more at the iPad but not anymore. My normal venue has a good fixed mix booth for FOH and i like it but do have to walk around to hear what things sound like in the various parts of the room then go back to the console and make adjustmentsI. I've now gotten comfortable enough with the iPad to miss being able to adjust from where I'm standing rather than run back and forth. I do agree with OneEng that ignoring this advancement may be at ones peril for staying current in the years ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 8, 2014 Members Share Posted September 8, 2014 Once you know the room, walking around is so much less necessary, especially in larger theatre environments IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 8, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted September 8, 2014 Using touch control screens vs a real-world mixer requires you to constantly look at your control surface while you adjust to make sure you're moving the fader icon; a fader allows you to just listen. On a control surface' date=' you may have to punch the surface two or three times before it registers; a real-world button on a mixer, unless broken, will generally work with a single proper punch. Contemporary mixers seem to have gotten us used to punching all kinds of buttons and rolling through menus, but there is something to be said for the simplicity of reaching for a knob, the location already learned via muscle memory, and affecting an immediate change. It seems Presonus has evolved the software to the point that a look and two taps can put you anywhere you need to be. If the software, the interfacing, and the hardware remain robust and dependable, this is a good deal, especially for 32x16/25bus-channels at $2K.[/quote'] Good points regarding the ability to manipulate control surfaces without looking. I tried that on the Mackie DL I was evaluating and failed miserably...it's simply not possible to reliably move the control blindly. There's also the fact that on a physical surface you can move from channel to channel with little or no sight if you only need to move a few channels over. Try that with a virtual surface; I did, and it was consistently inconsistent. Even over time (I had the mixer a while) it simply wasn't going to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted October 15, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2014 It looks like Mackie has launched a similar product to the Presonus RM32AI. Seems solely focused on the IPAD (for now) as a mix surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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