DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 (VL4)

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Michael Angel

Hey guys,

Anderton wrote, "I use the VL4 not to replace band members, but to fill out and enlarge my own voice."

I am very interested in doing the same thing. Setting aside the use of the VL4 for creating traditional harmonies, what setting have you found useful to simply make your singing sound better live?

By the way, Anderton, would you mind elaborating a bit on how you are using the VL4 to fill out and enlarge your voice?

Thanks.

Sure! My experience so far has been with the VL2, but I'm "porting" what I've learned over to the VL4.

What really works well for my voice is to do a 3rd above harmony and a unison voice, then mix it more or less in the background -- the harmony is NOT at the same level as my voice. This makes my voice sound a whole lot bigger, especially with a little bit of delay as well.

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Anderton.

[Michael Angel]

Hoping anyone who has had the time to experiment with the VL4 would tell me what they think about the Tube Pre-amp versus the Harsh pre-amp?

What are your thoughts on the Persona lead effects?

Also, how do you find the Alternate musIQ compares with the Main musIQ?

[Omaha]

I mainly participate at the Acoustic Guitar Magazine forum. I posted this this morning:

Here you go...bunch of stream of consciousness thoughts in no particular order:

We had our first rehearsal with the VL4 on Saturday. Bottom line impression: Keeper.

The thing has 50 different presets. If you find the right one, the results can be amazing! But it also has a bunch of settings that result in laughably unnatural sounds. It really is an instrument in its own right. You have to use it properly to get the right sound.

The drummer in our band thought it kicked ass. The lead guitar player thought it sucked. Then again, he is something of a gear snob (no, he is the ultimate gear snob and won't accept that a DigiTech unit could ever be the equal of the Helicon unit he prefers).

Our sound guy put it like this: The harmonies sound 10% synthetic. I think that's about right. The utility of this box depends a lot on what your options are. If you have three or four guys who can all sing and nail their harmony parts, then you don't need it. But if you don't have a cadre of pro singers, this thing works. And the sound quality is certainly "good enough" for live work. Its not going to cut it in the studio, of course. But in the studio you can just overdub your harmonies and not bother with it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that this box does a lot for you even without the harmony stuff. It has all the standard vocal processing stuff (compression, reverb) as well as some "persona" effects you can apply (such as thickening your voice) that really work. Like most things with the VL4, some of these really work, some sound cartoonish.

I played around a little with the pitch correction...Not sure I like it. If you use it, there is going to be a lot of configuration needed to make it sound right. There are three parameters you can set: The "Window" defines how 'off' you have to be before the PC kicks in, the "Rate" defines how quickly the PC responds and the "Amount" defines how far the correction goes (eg, if you set the "amount" to 50%, and sing a note that is 20 cents flat it will adjust it to 10 cents flat).

On the presets with PC turned on, digitech has those three set at 99, 30 and 99, respectively. My experience is that that is WAY too aggressive...you can easily hear your voice bounce between two notes a half step apart as the PC tries to hone in on it. I had better luck setting the "window" to a much lower value. Something more like 40 or 50. I left the "rate" at 30, and set the "amount" to about 65. That seemed to be more natural. If you can actually hear the PC working, you won't like it. It has to be subtle enough to be unobtrusive. Even after all that screwing around, I'm not sure I like it. If you can't sing on-pitch, then you can't sing. This might save you from the occasional clunker, but it won't make a singer out of you if you can't do it in the first place.

One thing I didn't try but will is setting the "scale" parameter for the PC. All the presets are based on the chromatic scale, so it will adjust to the nearest half step. But you can, for example, specify "A major" of "D harmonic minor" or any other scale. That limits the number of target notes for the PC, and may yield a more natural result. One thing I'm surprised is missing is any integration between the PC and the MusiQ system. It seems like a simple thing to configure the PC to where it will always target one of the notes in the chord you are currently playing. Wonder with DigiTech didn't do that...

Some of the presets are REALLY fun: dial in #16 ("Big Guy") and the next thing you know you are BB King. That one sounds stunningly natural, and it is a hoot to sing through.

Speaking of singing through, one of the more challenging things about this box is learning to ignore the harmonies and only listening to your own voice. At first, I would have trouble because I would try to chase one of the harmony voices. The result was not good.

I would prefer it it had an output for unprocessed vocals, so you could run that into your monitor mix and only send the harmonies to the mains. But I understand why they didn't do it that way. This thing is designed to be simple enough for the solo singer/guitar player to use, without the benefit of a sound guy or even a separate mixing board. If you are playing solo, this thing actually has all the mixer you need built in (eg, "vocal", "harmony" and "guitar" levels). The VL4, a mic, a guitar and a simple amp and you have a complete coffee shop setup.

[orbm1]

Originally Posted by Omaha

I mainly participate at the Acoustic Guitar Magazine forum. I posted this this morning:

Here you go...bunch of stream of consciousness thoughts in no particular order:

We had our first rehearsal with the VL4 on Saturday. Bottom line impression: Keeper.

The thing has 50 different presets. If you find the right one, the results can be amazing! But it also has a bunch of settings that result in laughably unnatural sounds. It really is an instrument in its own right. You have to use it properly to get the right sound.

The drummer in our band thought it kicked ass. The lead guitar player thought it sucked. Then again, he is something of a gear snob (no, he is the ultimate gear snob and won't accept that a DigiTech unit could ever be the equal of the Helicon unit he prefers).

Our sound guy put it like this: The harmonies sound 10% synthetic. I think that's about right. The utility of this box depends a lot on what your options are. If you have three or four guys who can all sing and nail their harmony parts, then you don't need it. But if you don't have a cadre of pro singers, this thing works. And the sound quality is certainly "good enough" for live work. Its not going to cut it in the studio, of course. But in the studio you can just overdub your harmonies and not bother with it.

Another thing worth mentioning is that this box does a lot for you even without the harmony stuff. It has all the standard vocal processing stuff (compression, reverb) as well as some "persona" effects you can apply (such as thickening your voice) that really work. Like most things with the VL4, some of these really work, some sound cartoonish.

I played around a little with the pitch correction...Not sure I like it. If you use it, there is going to be a lot of configuration needed to make it sound right. There are three parameters you can set: The "Window" defines how 'off' you have to be before the PC kicks in, the "Rate" defines how quickly the PC responds and the "Amount" defines how far the correction goes (eg, if you set the "amount" to 50%, and sing a note that is 20 cents flat it will adjust it to 10 cents flat).

On the presets with PC turned on, digitech has those three set at 99, 30 and 99, respectively. My experience is that that is WAY too aggressive...you can easily hear your voice bounce between two notes a half step apart as the PC tries to hone in on it. I had better luck setting the "window" to a much lower value. Something more like 40 or 50. I left the "rate" at 30, and set the "amount" to about 65. That seemed to be more natural. If you can actually hear the PC working, you won't like it. It has to be subtle enough to be unobtrusive. Even after all that screwing around, I'm not sure I like it. If you can't sing on-pitch, then you can't sing. This might save you from the occasional clunker, but it won't make a singer out of you if you can't do it in the first place.

One thing I didn't try but will is setting the "scale" parameter for the PC. All the presets are based on the chromatic scale, so it will adjust to the nearest half step. But you can, for example, specify "A major" of "D harmonic minor" or any other scale. That limits the number of target notes for the PC, and may yield a more natural result. One thing I'm surprised is missing is any integration between the PC and the MusiQ system. It seems like a simple thing to configure the PC to where it will always target one of the notes in the chord you are currently playing. Wonder with DigiTech didn't do that...

Some of the presets are REALLY fun: dial in #16 ("Big Guy") and the next thing you know you are BB King. That one sounds stunningly natural, and it is a hoot to sing through.

Speaking of singing through, one of the more challenging things about this box is learning to ignore the harmonies and only listening to your own voice. At first, I would have trouble because I would try to chase one of the harmony voices. The result was not good.

I would prefer it it had an output for unprocessed vocals, so you could run that into your monitor mix and only send the harmonies to the mains. But I understand why they didn't do it that way. This thing is designed to be simple enough for the solo singer/guitar player to use, without the benefit of a sound guy or even a separate mixing board. If you are playing solo, this thing actually has all the mixer you need built in (eg, "vocal", "harmony" and "guitar" levels). The VL4, a mic, a guitar and a simple amp and you have a complete coffee shop setup.

This is what i wanted to hear.

Thanks for the inside info, and I am still looking forward to get mine (is backorder)

Any demos that you can upload?

Thanks!

Omar

[whinersmusic]

Originally Posted by fuzzball

Some great info here!

Just wanted to add I've tried to use a standard 9 volt wall wort (e.g. BOSS adapter) with the unit using the "One Spot DigiTech adapter" pug to allow you to connect into DigiTech units. The unit does power up but, get this, no vocals come out from the unit. It seems odd to me but that's what happens.

The DigiTech wall wort is rated 18 Watts and I guess it needs it since the other adapters I've tried are closer to 8 watts. My hope was that I could connect the VL 2 into my daisy chain with my other effects and not have two actual wall worts. I did not try this on the VL 4 but the VL 4 uses the same adapter as the VL 2.

So, in case anyone is thinking of trying the same thing, it doesn't seem to work.

I also want to note that the harmony tweaks you can make on the VL 4 do help the sounds (as opposed to the VL 2). Much better with the extra two voice options. Not to say the VL 2 is bad - just that you get an expanded range and it pays off well to my ears.

The "Big voice option" and those effects that alter your own voice bother me a little bit since it is pretty obvious in a set of songs that it isn't "you". I would prefer to be able to get that effect on a harmony (the Arnold sound that is on the TC Helicon). I tried on the weekend to do that with just harmony and couldn't get it to come out. The blend then between your own voice and the deep Barry White, if you like, would work better to me than an altered main vocal. If anyone can get me there on the harmony adjusts I'd like to know. The octave down doesn't seem to be available on all four selections and I think it would need it to cut through.

Finally, I suspect that DigiTech will have to offer a midi on a unit sooner or later. The Helicon moving to an add-on harmony tracker with its unit, means that competition is out there. I would think DigiTech may want to up the anti a bit if Helicon is now going to compete with guitar chord harmony. If the VL units take off and work for them, then it would be in their interest to go further. We'll have to stay tuned.

[gc24]

I agree with Omaha on the sounds of the PC, doesn't really do much for me. I really don't care to tweak this and that and spend alot of time messing with the thing. I bought it for the ease of use and that's what it was advertised for. I just find that there are some songs that sound great with the presets and then again, some don't, so I just move on and find another one that does. Most if not all of the duets from the 60's and 70's sound fine if you search for the right preset. I use it for coffee house gigs alone with a mic guitar and amp and that's good enough to make people think the sound is full.
I don't feel the need to go searching through all the edit parameters, takes too much effort and doesn't make that much difference. Just my .2 cents. I can get a Barry White voice out of it for Can't Get enough of your Love baby BTW.

[pacAir]

Originally Posted by SoloArtist

LATEST BACKORDER NOTICE ON THE VL4!

Here we go again. I just got another backorder notice from MF saying my VL4shippment is being pushed ahead by 30 days! They're not even giving me an actual date anymore.

The last promised time was October 26th. They said my order would be filled with their last invoice. Anybody else get this notice from MF or know what's going on? I did get the $399.00 price and they also sent a $20.00 discount coupon which I applied to this order so I'm not angry but a bit frustrated.

Thanks,

SoloArtist

I ordered my VL4 on Friday 9/21 (also at $399.. price good until 9/30/07 if ordered from the August catalog listing) from Musician's Friend and was quoted an October 5th date on the phone. The e-mail Backorder notice I received that same evening confirms the October 05 due date verbally quoted me on the phone.

MF has a checkered history with me... I order a lot of stuff there but a high percentage never goes through, is cancelled or the B/O situation goes on for so long that I cancel in frustration. Once, I had a $450 guitar amp on B/O from them for almost 2 months during a time that the manufacturer said they had units on the shelf ready to ship. I cancelled the order and THEN they shipped it anyway! I should have made them eat it but I wanted the amp.

Since I am a "predatory" buyer, I put up with a lot of crap most people wouldn't in order to ensure I get a good deal on something I may not absolutely need but definitely want to experiment with. The VL4 falls into this territory for me as I already own a VL2 so I am in no hurry.

My VL2 was a "predatory pricing" deal as well... when the VL2 was first announced I found that B&H Photo was accepting pre-orders at $249.00. I ordered it and waited 3 months to get it. A few days after I ordered it the price went up to the $299 everyone else was asking for it. Apparently B&H mistakenly priced the unit $50 below MAP and had to re-price it. To their credit, they sold it to me at the ordered price without any whining or weaseling.

Does the VL4 have separate "Weasel" and "Whine" harmony controls?
If so, MF better watch out... They weasel and I'll whine in 4-part Harmony!

[GlennGalen]

Here is a quick thing I dashed off to show you how the VL4 sounds.

This is Preset 18 Eaglets 2, on a country/folk tune:

http://www.GlennGalen.com/VL4.mp3

[Michael Angel]

Thanks Glenn.

Keep it up!

[jerrye]

One thing I'm surprised is missing is any integration between the PC and the MusiQ system.

Freakin' bummer. I just lost my interest in the 4. I was hoping and expecting this P correct - MusiQ integration. I use a TC Helicon for pitch correction, and after experimenting with the parameters, I make the best of my shredder guitar player's voice. The problem is that using chromatic is often not good enough, and I use a FCB 1010 midi pedal to change keys, live, between songs and even mid song.

BTW, using P correction in the woodshed gives me quicker feedback than does a recording, as far as whether I'm on pitch. I then try to adjust my vocal instrument according to things learned from voice lessons.

Thanks to all who've written about this gear.

[orbm1]

Originally Posted by GlennGalen

Here is a quick thing I dashed off to show you how the VL4 sounds.

This is Preset 18 Eaglets 2, on a country/folk tune:

http://www.GlennGalen.com/VL4.mp3

Thanks!

one question: how many harmonies does this preset use?

Thanks, just wondering

Omar

[gc24]

Glenngalen:
What preset(s) did you use for the song that you posted?

[GlennGalen]

Originally Posted by gc24

Glenngalen:
What preset(s) did you use for the song that you posted?

gc24,

It really was Preset 18 Eaglets 2.


__________________________________________________ _____
Originally Posted by GlennGalen:
"Here is a quick thing I dashed off to show you how the VL4 sounds."

"This is Preset 18 Eaglets 2, on a country/folk tune:"
__________________________________________________ ______

[GlennGalen]

Originally Posted by orbm1

Thanks!

one question: how many harmonies does this preset use?

Thanks, just wondering

Omar

Omar,

It's just a single "3rd above" harmony voice.

[gc24]

My bad, I should have seen that you posted what preset it was. Thanks, nice sound and music.

[whinersmusic]

I meant to note previously that the programed version that comes up as the VL 4 starts up is saying "1.4". I'm curious if, like the TC Helicon, there will be new versions of the program? My point being that without midi in on the VL 4, there would seemingly be no way to update the version on the VL 4!

Perhaps there is a way to program it into the unit but I can't see how. The issue here will be improving any bugs or advances to the unit without having to buy a new unit. DigiTech will want to answer this one I guess but I'm wondering if any one has thoughts on that and if everyone is seeing this "1.4" on start up.

[MoT-2]

What about for solo gigs with just me and an acoustic guitar? Is the 'digital' sound of the unit likely to be more obvious? I generally don't use a drum machine or backing tracks, just me and my acoustic.

[gc24]

Yea, I see it. Your always going to have improvements on anything electronic, it just the nature of technology. Frankly, I'm glad that we have this.

Mot 2: Yea, your going to notice it alot. That's what I do and it sounds great as long as you don't overdue it with the harmonies.

[GlennGalen]

Originally Posted by gc24

My bad, I should have seen that you posted what preset it was. Thanks, nice sound and music.

gc24...

Hehe. That's OK. Thanks for the compliment.

As far as the track, it really highlights what the VoiceLive is all about. Because I just fired up Band in a Box, muted everything except the drums and bass, plugged in my Strat, selected Eaglets 2...hit "Play" and and took off.

After several takes to get the balance right between lead vocal, harmonies, and guitar and Band in a Box...it was "good enough".

If you listen to that harmony track, I think it sounds extremely realistic at the level it was mixed.

I really like the harmony it generates on the words "they put it off for quite SOME time..." the harmony against the underlying guitar chords, is great. Just right.

http://www.GlennGalen.com/VL4.mp3

I was listening to a James Taylor track on my MP3 player the other day. I have great headphones and can really hear things "as they are". I noticed that even his harmony singers are so "blended back" that I'd never really be able to notice if they are fake or real. Of course, they are real, though.

Had I tried to do my example track by overdubbing the harmony track, it would have taken me MUCH longer to figure out exactly the right harmony line and get that recorded.

There are 2 or 3 "flat" notes on that take. No pitch correction.

It is interesting how the harmonies go flat as well ! They are such loyal "followers".

I realize that can all be set to correction as well.

[Omaha]

Originally Posted by jerrye

I was hoping and expecting this P correct - MusiQ integration. I use a TC Helicon for pitch correction, and after experimenting with the parameters, I make the best of my shredder guitar player's voice. The problem is that using chromatic is often not good enough, and I use a FCB 1010 midi pedal to change keys, live, between songs and even mid song.

I am at a loss to understand why DigiTech didn't integrate the PC and the MusiQ. It seems like a complete no-brainer. I can only assume they have their reasons. I've sent a question to DT tech support. I'll let you know what I hear.

Anyway, all is not lost. It would be simple enough to set up a few different presets in different keys. In practical terms, I can see narrowing the VL4 down to no more than two or three harmony presets. Figure that at most we would play using four or five different keys, and that gives you at most 15 presets to fiddle with. A very manageable number.

So you would have "3U + 5U in A Minor" as a preset, etc. Simple enough to tap from one to the next.

And you still have the benefit of the MusiQ for actually generating the harmonies.

Still, it makes me wonder why they didn't do this in the first place. Also, my VL4 displays "Version 1.4" at startup as well. I wonder if the PC-MusiQ integration could be added in software...

[gc24]

GlennGalen: So which Band in a Box do you prefer. I notice that they have a 2007 one out now.

[GlennGalen]

gc24,

I have upgraded Band in a Box (BIAB) for years. I have 2007 now. It's an amazing program, once you learn how to use it properly. A tremendous time saver for "bread and butter" backing tracks. I used to get so tired of creating basic drum and bass backup tracks for my songs. Boring.

But BIAB takes care of that, and then I build from there on the "hard stuff".

Careful, though. If you rely too much on Band in the Box without adding more complex twists on your own, you end up with very bland, simplistic tracks. You have to use BIAB as one tool, but you have to add to it for the best sounding tracks.

An example of a track I am proud of that use BIAB as a "base", and where I played all the "hard stuff", is the track on my website called "Traveling By Night". I played the rhythm guitar, the lead guitar, and the synth backing pad.

It's the first track on the MP3 player on the website.

[Omaha]

Below is my question to DigiTech regarding the integration of PC and MusiQ, and their answer. I'm not sure I get what he is saying, but there it is:

************************************************

Hi,
The reason is because the Pitch Correction only affects the lead vocal,
not the harmonies. They harmonize with the corrected pitch.

William Clayton
Harman Music Group
Technical Support Group

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Miller [mailto:jeff@thejeffmiller.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 12:23 PM
To: support@digitech.com
Subject: Question on VL4, Pitch Correction and MusiQ

I am curious about something...

It seems like it would have been a simple matter to integrate the Pitch
Correction and the MusiQ functions (so the PC was always based on the
current chord) on the Vocalist Live 4. What is the reason that wasn't done?

Jeff Miller

[GlennGalen]

Originally Posted by Omaha

I am curious about something...

It seems like it would have been a simple matter to integrate the Pitch
Correction and the MusiQ functions (so the PC was always based on the
current chord) on the Vocalist Live 4. What is the reason that wasn't done?

Jeff Miller

Jeff,

I think it's because the pitch correction could not determine the proper pich from a multi-note the chord; it requires a scale.

Example: You are supposed to sing E, but you sing G instead. You are playing a C chord...C-E-G. How does that help on pitch correction?