DigiTech Vocalist Live 4 (VL4)

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by pickinatit

I have fellow band members poo-pooing the idea of the VL2 or VL4 on the basis of "poor sound quality ie: electronic, artificial sounding....even though they have never heard one or even read any of the reviews. For live band use, is the quality of the harmony vocals good?

I'll give you analogy: The harmony voices are to real voices as electronic reverb is to real reverb. In other words, yes, you can tell the difference and most of the time, no, it doesn't matter.

I use the VL4 not to replace band members, but to fill out and enlarge my own voice. As a result the harmonies are mixed fairly low and because my "real" voice is the dominant part of the mix, they sound fine.

Also, How much of a problem do you encounter, if any, when the guitar needs to stop playing chords to play riffs and such. Say for a Power Trio type band with only one guitar. I'm trying to figure how much of a problem this would be in the context of the songs we do and how often it would even happen compared to when harmonies are needed, but that's pretty difficult to calculate especially since I play bass. I know it would depend on the particular song etc....I just mean in general.

I've been very surprised about how when I drop back from chords to single notes, the harmony follows along. I asked one of the designers about this, and he said that the unit has some degree of "memory" that is constantly looking at the signal from the mic, the guitar, and the history of the chord progression. In my own situation, when I'm playing off-the-wall leads, I'm usually not signing so it's not a problem. But I have been pleasantly surprised at how well the VL units handle harmonies when the "song data" drops out for a bit.

Lastly, how preoccupied does someone in the band need to be regarding when to hit the footswitches on and off? Who does this in your band? If you have a front person/vocalist only do you make them responsible? Wouldn't that detract from whoever is responsible's ability to "be part of the show" so to speak?

Most of the time, for me it's a "set and forget" issue...turn it on, leave it on for most (if not all) of the song.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Omaha

Regarding pitch correction, I am curious how it works with harmonies.

The section of the manual dealing with PC is simple enough. From what I can tell, in the real world, you will set it to "CHROM"atic scale, set the window parameter to 99, set to rate to 30, and set the amount to 99. From what I could see, those were the settings that Digitech used for all the presets that had PC turned on.

But how does that effect harmony voices?

For example, p19 of the manual lists a bunch of harmony options, among them:

U - Unison. Creates a copy of the lead vocal.
UC - Unicon corrected. Creates a copy of the lead vocal with pitch correction.

That's where I get confused. Suppose you have PC turned off on a given preset, but select the "UC" harmony. Is only the harmony voice corrected (leaving the original vocal unaltered)? If so, what parameters are used for the harmony pitch correction?

It also says : "Turning on ...pitch correction requires the use of a harmony voice".

Suppose I turn PC on, but have all harmonies off. What happens? Is pitch correction occurring? Is it a blend of the natural signal and the processed signal?

I am also sending this question to DigiTech directly. I'll post any response I get.

The unison (U) voicing has no pitch correction – so if you hold a note that’s 10 cents flat, the unison voice will be flat as well. Note that this unison voice will still be decoupled from your lead vocal, and the type and amount of decoupling can be adjusted with the Voice Styles and Style Amount controls in the harmony row. So you have quite a bit of control over the type of voice doubling if you like to play with that sort of thing.

The corrected unison voice (UC) is not only decoupled according to the Voice Style, but is also lightly pitch corrected as well. Basically you’ll find that if you hold a note that’s a little flat or sharp, the UC voice will move to the correct pitch in a natural way. The actual pitch correction parameters used for this voice (and all the harmony voices) were chosen to keep the harmonies sounding natural.

The lead vocal is never processed with pitch correction when Pitch Correction is off. *So if you have UC voicing, and pitch correction off, you’ll hear your own pitch as the lead voice and the lightly pitch corrected unison voice when you turn on the harmonies.

No matter what the setting is on your harmonies, or whether they are on or off, turning on Pitch Correction will cause your lead voice to be fully pitch corrected – there will never be a blend of your natural and pitch corrected signals. If you want this kind of doubling, you’d probably use the UC harmony voicing. * *

[whinersmusic]

Originally Posted by Omaha

Caveat on these comments: I am the lead singer/guitar player in a working classic rock cover band. I've had the VL4 for a couple days, and have experimented with it for a total of about six hours in my studio at home. I haven't used it with the band yet, and I haven't run it through our full PA (just my little Marshall AS50R practice amp).



Compared to what? It really comes down to the band. If you have three or four good singers that can consistently hit their harmonies, I wouldn't bother with the VL4.

But my experience is that that's pretty rare. Most bands are lucky to have one decent singer singing leads. In those cases, the VL4 seems like a great option. Its not going to be the equal of having a cadre of pro's singing backup, but for the average working band, its going to be a huge improvement over where they are currently.

One other consideration is that the VL4 will allow you to get new material performance-ready much more quickly.



Good question. I don't know the answer. But I will say this: I had heard that the VL4 struggled with fingerstyle, preferring chords to glean the key. I tested that, and found that it actually did a pretty good job. Plus, depending on the harmony voices you are using, it may or may not be a disaster if it misses a key change (or is late).



In our band, I'll be operating the VL4. As I said, I'm the lead singer.

Playing around with it, I think I prefer the "hold the switch down to engage harmonies" mode, rather than toggle mode. But I'll wait until we have a few gigs with it to finalize that decision.

Just wanted to comment on the singer engaging the harmony. I'm assuming here you are also not playing while singing. You might find it a little weird and I'd be interested in finding out. I'm finding that the harmony behaves (or misbehaves) and I do have to be careful how I strike chords while singing. Often, a complex chord is an issue in the harmony as is singing over (memory seems more like 10 secs than "30 secs). So, I think you might find, that being the singer and not in control of how the chord is played, may cause some issues until you can coordinate with the player who is tied into the unit. This is an interesting scenario to deal with and one where using keys may be better for you. Anyone else dealing with that?

I have also found that the locking toggle switch is giving me grief since I can't view the light on/off at the floor while singing. I've had harmony on when I didn't want it and vice versa. So, the VL 4, having the option of toggle or no toggle is a good option. The non-toggle keeps it clear. If your foot is on the switch you know you've got harmony on.

I'm going to investigate if I can defeat the toggle on the VL 2 (no doubt voiding warranty while I do it) but it will be worth it to have the non-toggle thing going on.

[geckoland]

Whinersmusic,

I'm the one who liked the chipmunk persona! But it was my kids that liked it. I haven't yet used it in a gig ... But regardless, I agree that we all use these units in different ways and appreciate different aspects of them, and these forums have been very tolerant of that, which is a good thing.

I have been reading these posts on hiss with some confusion because I have not had any problems with hiss. I used to own a Helicon VoiceLive, and I don't find the hiss any worse on either of my Vocalist Live units compared to the VoiceLive, although I have not done A/B tests. The following comment you made has shed some light on this for me ...

Originally Posted by whinersmusic

Try the test yourself. Set up your level with no harmony and it will sound fine. Sing your favorite tune. Then engage the harmony and sing it again - you'll hear the boost and subsequent distortion. Playing with compression et al can help to some degree but you will find you have to lower your levels at the unit to avoid this altogether. What I've found is this: guitar signal needs to be green green green ... vocal level needs to be just nudging green as in mild green flicker not constant or amber.

I always set my mic level so that I am tickling the red on the loudest sections, and I have not heard the distortion that you are speaking of when I kick my harmonies on. I tried turning my mic level down so that it was just tickling the green as you do and turned up my PA to compensate - sure enough, the hiss got a lot louder as I expected. If it was like this all the time, I would be complaining too! But like you say, even with the hiss at this level, no one would notice in a live situation.

I think the problem you are having is not the hiss, but the distortion you are hearing when you turn your mic gain up to the proper level. Where is this distortion coming from? What are you connecting the output of the VL 4 to? Is it possible you are over driving your mixer or something (if so, did you try turning down the sensitivity)? Do you hear this distortion on the headphone out as well?

I have to admit, the output of the Vocalist Live units is quite hot. I have read some posts where people are hooking the output of their VLs to pre-amps (i.e. where they used to send their old mic signal), but the output of the VL is already pre-amped so this is unnecessary.

Geckoland

[Anderton]

Geckoland, I think you're on to something with the hiss aspects...I don't have a problem with it either, but hopefully, I'll get to take some measurements and get something quantitative.

The other comment of yours I found interesting is: "I agree that we all use these units in different ways and appreciate different aspects of them, and these forums have been very tolerant of that, which is a good thing."

ABSOLUTELY!! I always felt one advantage of a pro review is how it's easy to get turned on to different applications. One quick example: I've been working on a song called "Try" with the band, and there's a place where there's a vocal more or less in isolation. It seemed that whatever guitar part I put behind it just didn't work. If it was powerful, like the rest of the song, it overshadowed the vocal. If I pulled back on the guitar, it sounded weak compared to the subsequent parts.

Then I read the comment where someone asked if anyone had figured out how to do Beach Boy harmonies yet, and the light bulb went on: Do the voice a capella, and throw everything the VL4 has at it! I have a rough patch that sounds pretty good...I think it's going in the right direction.

The VL4 is so similar to the VL2 yet so different...so many more possibilities.

[whinersmusic]

Originally Posted by geckoland

Whinersmusic,

I'm the one who liked the chipmunk persona! But it was my kids that liked it. I haven't yet used it in a gig ... But regardless, I agree that we all use these units in different ways and appreciate different aspects of them, and these forums have been very tolerant of that, which is a good thing.

I have been reading these posts on hiss with some confusion because I have not had any problems with hiss. I used to own a Helicon VoiceLive, and I don't find the hiss any worse on either of my Vocalist Live units compared to the VoiceLive, although I have not done A/B tests. The following comment you made has shed some light on this for me ...

I always set my mic level so that I am tickling the red on the loudest sections, and I have not heard the distortion that you are speaking of when I kick my harmonies on. I tried turning my mic level down so that it was just tickling the green as you do and turned up my PA to compensate - sure enough, the hiss got a lot louder as I expected. If it was like this all the time, I would be complaining too! But like you say, even with the hiss at this level, no one would notice in a live situation.

I think the problem you are having is not the hiss, but the distortion you are hearing when you turn your mic gain up to the proper level. Where is this distortion coming from? What are you connecting the output of the VL 4 to? Is it possible you are over driving your mixer or something (if so, did you try turning down the sensitivity)? Do you hear this distortion on the headphone out as well?

I have to admit, the output of the Vocalist Live units is quite hot. I have read some posts where people are hooking the output of their VLs to pre-amps (i.e. where they used to send their old mic signal), but the output of the VL is already pre-amped so this is unnecessary.

Geckoland

Hey Geckoland - just wasn't able to look up your name from before while writing the last item. Here is more elaboration. Levels are somewhat subjective of course but I'll say, I've tried bumping it up and lowering it off. When I get a nice green on the voice (no harmony) everything is pure and strong. But, kick on the harmony switch, and the level goes up and distorts or clips - not a lot but there is clipping. This is why I think there is a boost in the unit. It just isn't as pure and, when comparing to the TC Helicon not as good. The Helicon also has distortion/clipping issues but you can control the harmony level with much more precision including each level independently. I have found the edge comes as you engage harmony and I think there has to be something going on there. The analogy I make is to your back up singers (if they were live) eating their mics where they should back off a bit. You can't really control if they eat the mic from the mixer just force them to back off - the Helicon can do that kind of adjustment.

If no one else is hearing it then it could very well be my unit I suppose. I got a lemon TC Helicon actually so nothing would surprise me. I have two VL 2s at the moment and both do it though as does the VL 4 but you have some extra control on this unit that is not available on the VL 2.

Here is my philosophy on sound levels: generally you want a reliable level on the loudest point of your vocal - just below distortion. You have to leave the headroom on the mixer or you will peak beyond the threshold and distort. If you bring your level up too high for the moderate to low bits, you will regret it on the louder passages as you clip. Some mixers and recorders are better at advance alerting of clipping than others and you can make a better assessment of where to land.

You do want to push it as close to the edge as you can always. I've been playing with the levels since I got the unit and, on recording and through headphones, it's just not as good as it should be. This is true on the recording monitor and then listening on the playback. I mean here, it could be the mixer phones so I tried recording and then playing back on other units live and through phones. The hiss is present always but, your vocal will mask a lot of the hiss - as does your guitar sound on guitar levels too. My issue is on the quieter passages - pauses etc, that's where your level will not be high enough to mask the equipment noise itself.

I'm using power cleaned AC and can tell the difference between the units just right from the get go. Especially if you take your mic direct into the board and not use the unit vs. going into the unit and to the board.

I am talking subtly to some degree but it is there to my ears. The hiss, of course, being different to the distortion/clipping issue.

If no one else reports in about these, then you can assume it's me I guess. I mentioned going back to the demo at the DigiTech website. I hear it there as well when the harmony is on during the demo. I am currently listening to a song at my computer. Everything is fine ... no issues. When I listen to the DigiTech demo, I get the clipping on the audio ... it's not there when the dude is talking about the unit but is there when he adds his harmony demos.

So perhaps it's the audio clip itself or still just me. Anyway, try the objective test of mic in/no unit vs. mic in/with the unit and I predict you will pick up the extra machine noise. It's all about quality in and out and anytime you add something you do get more noise but, that can be corrected or amended to the positive with higher end materials et al.

I guess, bottom line, I'm saying we are getting a bit of what we pay for. If the unit were double in price we'd have more absolute studio quality. That's where I hear a difference in the Helicon - it's got to be better parts I'd say.

I hope that helps define my opinion or mind set vis-a-vis my earlier comments on how people can take reviews. I'd say I'm someone who doesn't want to hear any extra hiss or clipping at all on a recording. Live is a bit different and even forgiving - you can get away with so much more. But, when something is preserved for a long time on a CD, then you don't want the perfect take ruined because of the equipment limitations.

As more people work with the unit, please let us know your take on the "quality" . There will no doubt be a trend on reactions. Right now my vote would be to track real harmonies or go for the Helicon if you are wanting to get the best studio audio recorded possible.

[Chumly]

The fact that the VL4 has scalic modes etc like its predecessors, and yet has no MIDI access, unlike its predecessors, is going to be a major frustration for anyone that uses sequences and wants to reduce footswitch tap-dancing (that's me for example).

Also Anderton's views of leaving the VL4 on for an entire tune and thus using it more as vocal enhancement does not apply well to a lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles. Clearly a lot of lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles require the harmonies to be rather notable and to be engaged / disengaged in a timely and repetitive manner (lots of tap-dancing wih the VL4).

I am likely to still buy one because I really appreciate the MusIQ, but it really pisses me off they left out MIDI.

It's also kind'a dumb they do not have a rack-mount version given the number of live performance users that already have an FCB1010 etc and/or use sequences or other MIDI control thus do not want more boxes clogging up precious stage real-estate. Also the extra setup / tear-down time of more non-rack mount devices on the floor and the higher risk of theft / damage as compared to rack-mount.

Perhaps DigiTech's market analysis pointed to an ease-of-use simple floor-unit. However the Fender VG Strat fails for a similar reason in that Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so you cannot access guitar synths! One might assume Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so as not to compete with the Roland-Ready Strat. However DigiTech does not appear to have similar concerns in that there is no other DigiTech device (at least not yet) that would compete with the VL4, if the VL4 did indeed have MIDI.

That is unless of course DigiTech plans on bringing out a rack version and they want to "save" MIDI to maximize the rack version's marketing appeal (speculation).

In any case I do not think it is very likely that DigiTech left out MIDI on the VL4 due to pricing concerns given that such MIDI implementation exists in the other DigiTech harmonizers. As such I think it was a big marketing boo-boo to leave out MIDI on the VL4.

Perhaps some insight into DigiTech's marking-think can be gleaned by comparing the RP 350 to the GSP 1101. Both rather new and both sharing a lot of common internals, however the GSP 1101 has MIDI and is rack-mount, the RP 350 is bereft of MIDI and is a floor device.

We have all seen the marketing plan of bringing out various simpler floor units, and then at a later date bringing out a rack-mount "plus" version, however even if DigiTech is going to do this it does not excuse no MIDI on the VL4, albeit such a rationale might excuse it on the VL2.

If there soon will be a rack-mount and MIDI capable VL4 as done in a similar marketing fashion to the RP 350 / GSP110 then I guess we will all have our answer! You know, I think I might just wait and continue to use my TC VoiceWorks rack-mount, after all it still has a few things going for it (alas no MusIQ) such as superior effects, more realistic harmonies and harmony hold - a very fun feature!

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Chumly

Anderton's views of leaving the VL4 on for an entire tune and thus using it more as vocal enhancement does not apply well to a lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles. Clearly a lot of lot of pop / rock / jazz ensemble harmony styles require the harmonies to be rather notable and to be engaged / disengaged in a timely and repetitive manner (lots of tap-dancing wih the VL4).

Yes, what I'm doing is yet another way to apply the VL4. The context is that it's just me on Digital Les Paul and Brian Hardgroove on drums, with a big, hard rock type sound. Brian also sings, so basically, that's the heavy lifting for harmonies...the VL is there mainly to make my voice sound better

I am likely to still buy one because I really appreciate the MusIQ, but it really pisses me off they left out MIDI.

MIDI would have been convenient, but do read my posts about using other instruments with the VL2. It's a workaround, but the audio out from a MIDI-driven synthesizer provides the same basic functionality as MIDI. The only real negative is you can't just take a MIDI out from your interface and plug it into the VL, you have to translate it to audio first.

It's also kind'a dumb they do not have a rack-mount version given the number of live performance users that already have an FCB1010 etc and/or use sequences or other MIDI control thus do not want more boxes clogging up precious stage real-estate. Also the extra setup / tear-down time of more non-rack mount devices on the floor and the higher risk of theft / damage as compared to rack-mount.

I don't have any inside knowledge, but I suspect the MusIQ technology will show up in studio-oriented rack units as well.

Perhaps DigiTech's market analysis pointed to an ease-of-use simple floor-unit. However the Fender VG Strat fails for a similar reason in that Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so you cannot access guitar synths! One might assume Fender / Roland left out the 13 pin hex output so as not to compete with the Roland-Ready Strat.

I honestly don't think that was the issue, as I'm sure Roland/Fender doesn't care which of their products you buy as long as it's their products. I see perhaps the same forces as work as with the VL: Wanting to make a non-intimidating package optimized for live use, and capable of appealing to a less technically-sophisticated user.

Someone from DigiTech can correct me if I'm wrong, but what I see is that DT wanted to bring out a unit optimized for live performance because, TC's VoiceLive aside, it's a wide-open field and there's nothing like the MusIQ feature. There are already plenty of rack units that take MIDI in, and so it's a much tougher field to compete in. Speaking personally, I have a VoicePrism that works fine in the studio, but the VL4 is a far better choice to take out on a gig.

Perhaps some insight into DigiTech's marking-think can be gleaned by comparing the RP 350 to the GSP 1101. Both rather new and both sharing a lot of common internals, however the GSP 1101 has MIDI and is rack-mount, the RP 350 is bereft of MIDI and is a floor device.

Good point (although the RP 350 does have USB). I think that MIDI is still thought of as more of a "studio" thing. It certainly wouldn't benefit me when gigging, but would when using the VL in the studio...although again, it's called the Vocalist Live, not the Vocalist Studio, which I think indicates their intention. It may be that they felt including MIDI would muddy the waters about whether the VL was a live or studio device, as well as provide a further point of confusion.

As a tweakhead I agree it would be nice to have the MIDI option, assuming it didn't add too much to the price. But I think DigiTech really wanted to be able to walk into a bar and see some singer/songwriting with a phobia about techology happily generating harmonies, and designed the unit with that target market in mind. I'm sure there will be more sophisticated options in the years ahead, given the success of the VLs.

[Omaha]

Originally Posted by Chumly

It's also kind'a dumb they do not have a rack-mount version given the number of live performance users that already have an FCB1010 etc

I've been thinking a lot about those sorts of questions, and I think I have the answer.

I think DigiTech did a wonderful job emphasizing simplicity. Clearly, the "sweet spot" they designed for is the solo performer who will run his own sound from the stage. With that in mind, the VL4 is perfect.

In my case, I'm not quite that guy. I play in a band and we have our own sound guy that runs the board from the audience. Big difference.

But to really take advantage of that, the VL4 would have to be significantly different. And significantly more complicated.

In the end, I think we can each look at this and think of a set of features we would like to add or change. It is to DigiTech's credit that they maintained the discipline to keep the design simple.

You want a midi-capable, rack-mountable harmony generator? Helicon has it. But that's not what the VL4 is all about.

[SoloArtist]

Hey Everybody,

I agree with everything being said here, especially Keith's insights on how one application, i.e. recording holds higher demands for sound quality than let's say, a live performance.

I am currently in the middle of recording a demo CD with the BOSS 1200CD. Would I use the VL2 in this application? Probabaly not but I will try doing an alternate track with my vocals using the VL2. Artists are not afraid of experimenting but when our music is preserved on a CD, we don't want to wince over the results years later! I mean what's the point of recording then? Bad recordings have a way of coming back to bite you.

I am primarily looking to use these units for live performances. As my name implies, I show up alone. Sometimes I may have the luxury of a backup vocalist who also plays the harmonica on breaks but that's about it. No road crew or sound guys. So anything that I can do to make myself stand out in the crowd, (in a good way that is!), is worth looking into.

Here's the kicker. I used the VL2 for the first time in a live performance earlier this month. Whoa. You should have seen the heads whirling around when I kicked in those harmonies! Mind you I had already been using a mixer with reverb and delay plus DR-3 Drum & Bass Machine so my stuff isn't that dry. However the VL2 made all of the difference in the world because my vocals are what drive the performance. I don't think it was any coincidence that they booked me into 2008 right after that! Thank God, I was willing to take a chance and try something new. Sometimes that's really more of the problem than the equipment. Trying something that we are not familiar with. I'm willing to jump in. I've taken a few things back that were junky, namely Digitech's RP whatever model guitar processor. It kept cutting off my instrument's signal. Should have seen how fast that got returned to the store. Like the next day! However, I didn't let that jade me from trying their VL2 which has been the best upgrade to my sound next to switching to a recording studio quality condenser microphone. Well, that's just my 2 cents worth.

Bless everyone here!

SoloArtist

[gc24]

Then I read the comment where someone asked if anyone had figured out how to do Beach Boy harmonies yet, and the light bulb went on: Do the voice a capella, and throw everything the VL4 has at it! I have a rough patch that sounds pretty good...I think it's going in the right direction.


Can you elaborate on that for a bit on how to get it that way?

[Chumly]

Thank you for the kind responses guys!

I have done a live high-tech solo act for 30 years (I started with the TB303 / TR 606 to four-track tape).

I use a laptop now as do many of my compatriot solo acts (and duo acts). Thus patch change data and other real-time MIDI controllers are easily implemented and are more comfortable / simpler than tap-dancing with toys all over the floor.

I understand what DigiTech was aiming for, but in doing so they left out the middle-ground people like me that do use MIDI live, and don't have a lot of stage-floor real-estate. As mentioned it could not have cost much more to implement MIDI into the (at present flagship harmonizer) VL4.

Thus I see the VL4 as perhaps more of a marketing success than a success of flexible implementation, the Vl2's non-MIDI status is more understandable re: cost / friendliness.

I do really dig the MusIQ, and yep I own the TC VoiceWorks (as already mentioned), in fact I have been using harmonizers live on my vocals since the DigiTech ISP33B came out.

Including my VoiceWorks I still own three vocal harmonizers and have owned a total of five including the venerable ISP 33BB.

I have used them all for live use only, so I am in the position of having a lot of experience in what makes a good live unit (marketing aside)!

[keelin]

i dont really know everything this thing does, but as someone who isnt a great singer, but wants to do some recording possibly with some vocals, will this, or anything else out there, automatically "pitch correct" when you hit an off note?

[fuzzball]

Some great info here!

[Chumly]

Originally Posted by Anderton

MIDI would have been convenient, but do read my posts about using other instruments with the VL2. It's a workaround, but the audio out from a MIDI-driven synthesizer provides the same basic functionality as MIDI. The only real negative is you can't just take a MIDI out from your interface and plug it into the VL, you have to translate it to audio first.

While yes it's true that I could program a series of chords into my sequences (taking into account the apropos inversions and voicings etc) for the VL4 to follow, if I am going to go to that much trouble, I can simply feed this as real-time MIDI data to my VoiceWorks as it has a MIDI chord recognition mode.

On the downside however the VW's MIDI chord recognition mode is not as sophisticated as the VL4's MusIQ but it certainly gets you out of the static scalic / chordal modes that have received some justifiable criticism as of late.

I would not buy the VL series with the expectation of feeding it sequenced synth audio, too much work for too little gain over the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI chord data. And/or the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI patch change / controller data!

Now if I did a solo keyboard act, and I could dedicate enough of my left hand and an audio out to the VL series perhaps, then again I use a Brain Moore i2.13 and an Axon AX100, so I have a MIDI chord out and could trigger my VoiceWorks, the only problem being the VoiceWorks does not have MusIQ! My understanding (I have not tried it) is that the VoiceWorks does not behave as well as MusIQ with singe line solos etc as transmitted from the AX100 but it has been done by some I chatted with!

Naturally my comments are related to me as a guitarist / singer doing a solo act!

[Chumly]

Originally Posted by Anderton

I honestly don't think that was the issue, as I'm sure Roland/Fender doesn't care which of their products you buy as long as it's their products. I see perhaps the same forces as work as with the VL: Wanting to make a non-intimidating package optimized for live use, and capable of appealing to a less technically-sophisticated user.

You may well be right as to the no concern about competition between the RR Strat and the VG Strat however I find it a bit tough to believe that someone would be so scared off by the presence of a 13 pin connector so as not to buy the VG Strat, but by the same token not be scared off by the modeling itself. I think it's another example of unnecessary dumbing down by marketers when you take into account the cost of the VG Strat.

That's why I said perhaps the VL2's lack of MIDI can be justified from a marketing point of view but not so readily the VL4's!

[Michael Angel]

Hey guys,

Anderton wrote, "I use the VL4 not to replace band members, but to fill out and enlarge my own voice."

I am very interested in doing the same thing. Setting aside the use of the VL4 for creating traditional harmonies, what setting have you found useful to simply make your singing sound better live?

By the way, Anderton, would you mind elaborating a bit on how you are using the VL4 to fill out and enlarge your voice?

Thanks.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Chumly

While yes it's true that I could program a series of chords into my sequences (taking into account the apropos inversions and voicings etc) for the VL4 to follow, if I am going to go to that much trouble, I can simply feed this as real-time MIDI data to my VoiceWorks as it has a MIDI chord recognition mode.

On the downside however the VW's MIDI chord recognition mode is not as sophisticated as the VL4's MusIQ but it certainly gets you out of the static scalic / chordal modes that have received some justifiable criticism as of late.

I would not buy the VL series with the expectation of feeding it sequenced synth audio, too much work for too little gain over the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI chord data. And/or the VoiceWorks with sequenced MIDI patch change / controller data!

Naturally my comments are related to me as a guitarist / singer doing a solo act!

I see, I was referring more to if you wanted to use the VL4 in the studio in addition to live. BTW when I tested this out I didn't worry about inversions and such, I just hit straight tonic-3-5 block chords and the VL took care of the harmonies. Even with my suggested workaround, remember that feeding audio into the VL4 is just to give it "data" about the key and scale - there's not a one-to-one correlation between notes that are input, and what you get out.

[Chumly]

I fully understand "there's not a one-to-one correlation between notes that are input, and what you get out." There isn't with the VoiceWorks in MIDI chord detection mode ether. Although you can do so in MIDI Note mode with the VoiceWorks! This is something that the VL units cannot do, you cannot "play" your voice from MIDI.

Specific voicings and inversions must have a different effect on outputted harmony notes with MusIQ however else it would not be able to tell the difference between an Am and a C6 for example. With MIDI chord recognition on the latest TC gear, specific voicings and inversions may also produce different outputted harmony notes.

Granted the ability to produce more varied voicings and inversions is the keyboard's forte and not so much a concert pitch tuned 6 stringer! I am getting GAS for the next generation of MusIQ / Rackmount / MIDI / Higher quality algorithms!

[SoloArtist]

LATEST BACKORDER NOTICE ON THE VL4!

Here we go again. I just got another backorder notice from MF saying my VL4shippment is being pushed ahead by 30 days! They're not even giving me an actual date anymore.

The last promised time was October 26th. They said my order would be filled with their last invoice. Anybody else get this notice from MF or know what's going on? I did get the $399.00 price and they also sent a $20.00 discount coupon which I applied to this order so I'm not angry but a bit frustrated.

Thanks,

SoloArtist

[gc24]

What's your favorite presets? I use # 10, 11, 18, 20 most of the time.

[neuro-feed]

Originally Posted by Chumly

You may well be right as to the no concern about competition between the RR Strat and the VG Strat however I find it a bit tough to believe that someone would be so scared off by the presence of a 13 pin connector so as not to buy the VG Strat, but by the same token not be scared off by the modeling itself. I think it's another example of unnecessary dumbing down by marketers when you take into account the cost of the VG Strat.

Well I've agreed 100% with everything you've said thus far Chumly, but I have to disagree with you here. There are maybe a handful of people on this forum (you and myself included) who are remotely interested in guitar synthesis or midi guitar. Modeling, on the other hand, has become much more prevalent, especially in the popularity of digital amp/cabinet modeling and effects. There simply aren't too many guitarists looking to play Hammond B3s on their guitar. They want variety in guitar-related sounds. Other than midi control and guitar synthesis with the 13 pin, you're only guitar-based options for use with 13 pin are Roland's VG series, and at a grand for the newest unit there are much cheaper options out there for guitarists looking to simply have different guitar modeled sounds. (Variax, for example). I see Fender's VG Strat simply as a response to Line 6's Variax series, though they missed the boat with regards to flexibility and editing capability compared to Variax.

As for the VL2 and VL4, I agree that it's disappointing that they don't have midi, and as such I won't be buying because I don't want to clutter the stage with more stuff either, but I still believe that somewhere down the line we'll be seeing a midi-capable rackmount VL unit. But I'm guessing that will be a couple of years away.

[GlennGalen]

Craig A.,

I'd be interested in your review of the VL4 pitch correction vocal quality.

I suspect the reason the pitch corrected main vocal sounds "chorused" and slightly electronic is that it is electronic...it's a Unison Corrected Voice...not your original.

No matter how low you set the correction, your entire voice still "goes through the processor" and emerges as a UC voice.

Result: kind of electronic and "faky". This works fine for many types of songs, such as rock or alternative rock, etc.

But many of my tunes are quieter, simpler tunes where the vocal needs to sound natural and warm and "acoustic". I just cannot get the pitch correction to correct me and pass the voice through without a little electronic edge. Kind of like a slight chorus with a very short "slap delay"...giving kind of a "tiled bathroom reverb" sheen to it almost.

What do you find, Mr. Anderton?

[Chumly]

Originally Posted by neuro-feed

Well I've agreed 100% with everything you've said thus far Chumly, but I have to disagree with you here. There are maybe a handful of people on this forum (you and myself included) who are remotely interested in guitar synthesis or midi guitar. Modeling, on the other hand, has become much more prevalent, especially in the popularity of digital amp/cabinet modeling and effects. There simply aren't too many guitarists looking to play Hammond B3s on their guitar. They want variety in guitar-related sounds. Other than midi control and guitar synthesis with the 13 pin, you're only guitar-based options for use with 13 pin are Roland's VG series, and at a grand for the newest unit there are much cheaper options out there for guitarists looking to simply have different guitar modeled sounds. (Variax, for example). I see Fender's VG Strat simply as a response to Line 6's Variax series, though they missed the boat with regards to flexibility and editing capability compared to Variax.

As for the VL2 and VL4, I agree that it's disappointing that they don't have midi, and as such I won't be buying because I don't want to clutter the stage with more stuff either, but I still believe that somewhere down the line we'll be seeing a midi-capable rackmount VL unit. But I'm guessing that will be a couple of years away.

If tech-phobia plus traditionalism are in fact ingrained into the modern guitarist, they may be a doomed species as it relates to the evolution of modern music, if so it would be an irony considering it was modern electronics that gave the guitar its popularity in the first place!

[orbm1]

Hey guys...
can anybody upload a video or audio file to see/listen the vl4 in action??

Mine is backordered and I would like at least to see it in action.

Thanks

Omar