Autumn Leaves

[Jed]

OK Gennation,

 

Let's hear your opinion on what's going on in this tune.

 

Autumn Leaves (by Johnny Mercer) - Real Book 9th Edition, 1980

 

 

[Jawbreakerr]

lets put up the changes in the real key it should be in

 

Gminor

[gennation]

I already posted it in Knotty's thread using the Realbook chart.

 

You don't need to get so worked up JedL. You always do this with me. I'm not some flash in the pan "guy". Not only do I understand this, but I can play too. I'm certainly not "hurting" anyone as you imply. Certainly NOT. There's no reason I would be, I don't post anything that's wrong.

 

I certainly teach a lot of straight Diatonic Theory, and from people I've learned from I also teach the other stuff that's useful. Again, I'm certainly NOT hurting anyone. Relax with those comments, please.

[gennation]

lets put up the changes in the real key it should be in Gminor

 

 

Regardless of the real Key, the Realbook is what most people are going to run into in the Realworld.

[bardsley]

This is one of those threads that's really about something else, isn't it?

My Real Book has it in G minor btw.

Does anyone really need to be told what's going on in Autumn Leaves anyway? I mean, it's a series of ii V I progressions in G (or E or whatever) minor.

[Virgman]

Settle down back there, Godammit!!!

 

It's in the key of G.

 

[Jawbreakerr]

 

Regardless of the real Key, the Realbook is what most people are going to run into in the Realworld.

 

 

see i believe that to be incorrect.. cause anyone thats played it in the real world knows that its usually in g minor. its called in E Minor too (rarely, and usually by people who are either reading straight out of the real book or are guitarists whod prefer to do it in E), but as you know, the realbook isnt the authority on changes either. so many horrible changes in that book. Look at four... look at round midnight.. the list goes on. thats why its important for people to learn the real changes. (either way, this is one of those tunes where key shouldnt matter too much.. you can figure the changes out if you know it in one key.)

 

but, G minor is definitely what should be called. - Cannonball and Miles said so. although you should learn it in both.. cause both WILL be called. but G Minor/BflatMaj is THE key.

 

whats all the beef though? im curious as to how Jed is making a snap at you.. i guess i missed a thread.

[gennation]

see i believe that to be incorrect.. cause anyone thats played it in the real world knows that its usually in g minor. its called in E Minor too (rarely, and usually by people who are either reading straight out of the real book or are guitarists whod prefer to do it in E), but as you know, the realbook isnt the authority on changes either. so many horrible changes in that book. Look at four... look at round midnight.. the list goes on. thats why its important for people to learn the real changes. (either way, this is one of those tunes where key shouldnt matter too much.. you can figure the changes out if you know it in one key.) but, G minor is definitely what should be called. - Cannonball and Miles said so. although you should learn it in both.. cause both WILL be called. but G Minor/BflatMaj is THE key. whats all the beef though? im curious as to how Jed is making a snap at you.. i guess i missed a thread.

 

 

True on the Key as stated, but when you're on stage during a pick up gig with only two people in the band that have played together before, and someone requests Autumn Leave, you pull it from the book so there's no questions. Plus it's less dead time making sure everyone knows the tune AND the Key. Who cares what Miles says when he's not paying the band that night. You "get everyone on the same page". More Realworld.

 

The "changes" from Autumn Leaves in most Realbooks are correct, the Key just varies.

 

Actually, for the "band" I'm working with now, we distribute the same Realbook to everyone. So, if one of us knows a tune and the others "have played it once before or never" we can still play through it "together". That's a good trick to get around the unstable world of Realbooks.

[gennation]

Actually Jawbreakrr, I wanted to talk to you about something. I'll PM you.

[blumonk]

It's a major 251 and then a minor 251

/thread

[bigboy_78]

I got me a collection of real & fake books, and its in G/Em in some and Bb/Gminor in others.

What's the real key?

[Stackabones]

I got me a collection of real & fake books, and its in G/Em in some and Bb/Gminor in others. What's the real key?

Whatever is called at the gig.

[Poparad]

I got me a collection of real & fake books, and its in G/Em in some and Bb/Gminor in others. What's the real key?

 

 

Gm is the key that it is traditionally played in. The Real Book took it's version from a Bill Evans CD of standards played in non-traditional keys. Often tunes that are written in the wrong key in the Real Book eventually become more commonly played in the 'wrong key' than the right one (for example, "Green Dolphin Street" is in C in the book, but originally in Eb, or "Just Friends" was originally in Bb instead of C). However, "Autumn Leaves" has more or less maintained Gm as the standard key, despite the Real Book. The reason for this is probably because the previously mentioned tunes are still comfortable for horn players in the new keys, but Em is not as horn player friendly as Gm.

[Stackabones]

None of this "real key/wrong key" stuff matters when you play with a vocalist.

Also, I've heard that many tunes are put in certain keys so that they'll look nice on the staff ... not too many notes above or below with those pesky ledger lines, but just right in the middle! So, it could really be a publisher's concern more than a player's.

*

Have you noticed that if you call a tune that's not the "real" key (aka Real Book key or "trad" key), a horn player will tell you that you're playing it in the "wrong" key.

But ... If a horn player calls it in a non-trad key and you point it out, he'll remind you that you're supposed to learn a song in all 12 keys?

[Santuzzo]

What's going on in this thread ??? Am I missing something ....

Someone enlighten me?

It's not really analysis of AL, is it?

some one trying to piss off Gennation?

If that's the case, don't let them get to you, Gennation, you're posts and threads here are awesome, extremely insightful and helpful and highly appreciated !

[Knottyhed]

Why does everyone keep saying F#min7b5 | B7 | Emin | Emin is the key of Em, surely it's E-harmonic minor?

[Knottyhed]

What's going on in this thread ??? Am I missing something .... Someone enlighten me? It's not really analysis of AL, is it? some one trying to piss off Gennation?

The impression I have is that Jedl is the one that's studied 'traditional' music theory in the universities/colleges and that doesn't always cooincide with the Gennation way of looking at things as Gennation has taken a less traditional route to learning his theory.

I don't think Gennation posts anything that is 'wrong' (he certainly hits some tasty notes on the odd backing track I've heard him play on - so that'd suggest he knows what he's doing), but you probably wouldn't get taught to look at things the Gennation way if you had a formal music education?

I think Jedl's pissed off cos he thinks alot of what Gennation says is his own personal view being passed off as established/accepted musical thought, when maybe sometimes it isn't?

[Poparad]

The impression I have is that Jedl is the one that's studied 'traditional' music theory in the universities/colleges and that doesn't always cooincide with the Gennation way of looking at things as Gennation has taken a less traditional route to learning his theory. I don't think Gennation posts anything that is 'wrong' (he certainly hits some tasty notes on the odd backing track I've heard him play on - so that'd suggest he knows what he's doing), but you probably wouldn't get taught to look at things the Gennation way if you had a formal music education? I think Jedl's pissed off cos he thinks alot of what Gennation says is his own personal view being passed off as established/accepted musical thought, when maybe sometimes it isn't?

 

 

I'm not sure what the beef is. I've been trained at a university, but I don't have any problem with what Gennation says.

[Poparad]

Why does everyone keep saying F#min7b5 | B7 | Emin | Emin is the key of Em, surely it's E-harmonic minor?

 

 

E harmonic minor is not a key. The key of E minor includes the use of E harmonic minor and the B7 chord it creates.

[Knottyhed]

E harmonic minor is not a key. The key of E minor includes the use of E harmonic minor and the B7 chord it creates.

See - that's what a formal music education does for you

[gennation]

E harmonic minor is not a key. The key of E minor includes the use of E harmonic minor and the B7 chord it creates.

 

 

That's where I was going to go with it. Good play...as usual.

[Terje]

I got me a collection of real & fake books, and its in G/Em in some and Bb/Gminor in others. What's the real key?

E minor is probably the "real" key. You try singing it in G minor and you'll see why

In G minor you'll be up on an F for {censored}'s sake, very few standards are written in keys that make them hard to sing for the male voice, trust me. They rarely go beyond D.

G minor is the often called key for jazz players because horn players love that key and its relative major, Bb, and because it's been recorded in that key by for instance Miles.

E minor sounds like the key a french person would put it in anyway

As to what's going on... there are {censored}loads of clues in the melody which is very logical yet beautiful. Expand on that and you have something to build from.

BTW, I know it in G minor

I can struggle through it in E minor but I'd have to work on that a little to be able to play it smoothly in that key.

[gennation]

The impression I have is that Jedl is the one that's studied 'traditional' music theory in the universities/colleges and that doesn't always cooincide with the Gennation way of looking at things as Gennation has taken a less traditional route to learning his theory. I don't think Gennation posts anything that is 'wrong' (he certainly hits some tasty notes on the odd backing track I've heard him play on - so that'd suggest he knows what he's doing), but you probably wouldn't get taught to look at things the Gennation way if you had a formal music education? I think Jedl's pissed off cos he thinks alot of what Gennation says is his own personal view being passed off as established/accepted musical thought, when maybe sometimes it isn't?

 

Jed has had disagreements with me in the past. I have no issue with him personally or knowledge wise, and I hope he has nothing personally against me...I don't see why if he does.

 

As far as my background, yes I've taken the "courses". I've also been to the prestigious Interlochen for percussion study when I was younger. I rarely talk about that though. So, I've had a lot of "schooled" background since I was a kid...one thing I haven't had too much of though is "guitar lessons", I got most of that from hanging around players, and working through things. Also, I was a fairly decent drummer through grade school and high school and was always in the company of some pretty damn good guitar players. So, other than a couple of months of real lessons last year, I learned from those players, but by the time I was 16 I was showing them stuff

 

Playing experience wise, I'm not really a name dropper either, but let's just say I've been fortunate enough to have been on stage with some pretty big names, mainly in the rock and country arena's though. I know you know these people.

 

Maybe Jed doesn't understand that I don't really discuss too much of the "fundamental" concepts in forums, due to the unorganized and scattered info that gets spewed normally, and I got sick of writing the same things over and over...

 

I much prefer to teach that information in an organized, ground up, approach...so I created my web site to deal with that stuff step by step for people interested in, and in need of, "the fundamentals"...sounds like a TON of my responses doesn't it?

 

So for fundamentals, 95% of the time I direct people to my website.

 

So, with that it's obvious I accept, and understand, Jed thoughts as I know exactly where he's coming from, but I also understand that those don't necessarily "teach most guitarist HOW to play". That's why I hang out at forums, cause there's a lot of confused guitarists out there and if I can get a couple of basic ideas or concepts to them, it could sweep them away for years...and I don't think I'm exaggerating, I'm living prove...

 

through my own personal love for the stuff, I continue to study and listen to many ideas...and USE these ideas in my playing...I've done this for 25+ years which is a much bigger chunk of time then the two years of college. I've found there's a TON of valid stuff out there, players concepts. I use them for inspiration, and SEE it in things I'm already doing. Even at 30 years of playing and learning, I continue to learn...neither of the two will ever end for me.

 

As far as playing, I think I've posted enough material on these boards over the last couple of years to show where I'm at level wise. So, I surely don't have to prove anything, and that's just kids play anyways. You're definitely not going to get a shootout (from me or JedL) But, if someone needs help getting through some of the stuff I'll certainly show some examples as time permits...and usually do for people.

 

Jed, I'm not some witch doctor who come into your town to take your practice away. I'm just always trying to help people take what they read, what we've ALL read, and see how it's used and turn it into music. Can't complain about that I don't think.

 

I'll respond to Jeds comments on my analysis...my every sentence...shortly. But, it's going to right back to about 3 of his disagreements with me. Oh well but, it will be a theoretically correct view, and make sense to people...just trying to help.

 

I do love these discussions though, because we both can learn and others will get a TON of information...which is why I know I hang here, and I'm sure that's the reason JedL hangs here.

 

I'm a longtyper

[mikepl12]

I do love these discussions though, because we both can learn and others will get a TON of information...which is why I know I hang here, and I'm sure that's the reason JedL hangs here.

And I'm sure that's why You didn't edit the Interval article yet

I learned Autumn Leaves in G Minor I think (last two chords are G Minor then G7).

Michal

[Knottyhed]

So for fundamentals, 95% of the time I direct people to my website.

No really?!

You have a website? :lol:

Seriously though, both you and Jedl and alot of other people put some really good quality information on this board and that's what makes it worth coming on here, sometime the threads where people start arguing are some of the most informative... watch it, I think Jedl is going for the chair