Just because it's improvised doesn't mean it's jazz

[Terje]

Terje, correct me if I'm wrong,(and I certainly could be) but isn't you argument putting something into the music that wasn't there to begin with? Just because I play say, Sympathy for the Devil with an orchestra, it wouldn't really reveal that the Rolling Stones were heavily influenced by classical music in their composition, would it? My point is, given only 12 notes to work with, some are bound to get used together more often than others just because they sound good. I don't claim that Jazz couldn't have been influenced by classical music, but to say that it was a major impact on a musical style with obscure roots, made by a marginalized part of society that the white man (who decide what gets recorded in history and what doesn't) didn't pay attention to, is sorta far fetched to me. Also, that doesn't take into account that African Music could have been different 200, or even 100 years ago, than what it is today. I don't claim to be an authority on music history, however.

 

 

No, the influence from classical music upon jazz is of another kind htan what you describe, but I see your point and it is valid to the extent that at a later stage in jazz development composers like Duke Ellington, who can't be said to have been part in inventing jazz really, definitely checked out classical music for inspiration and for material.

 

But your argument is flawed nonetheless. First of all there is the element of time. Western classical music had been around for a while when jazz started to develop and was still the norm when and if someone wanted to study music seriously. In many ways it still is. In any case, the things in classical music that are directly necessary for jazz to exist, even in its earlier forms are in favor of what I've been saying.

 

Without the well tempered scale there would be no jazz. The ability to go from key to key in the same tune is essential. So many jazz standards are completely unthinkable without this. To write out just the basic chord progression and then have the bass player improvise the bass line was the norm for baroque I've been told. They wrote the chords with numbers... now, where have I seen that before...

 

I think everyone who was interested in music actually payed attention to the development of jazz, no matter the color of their skin, but that racism did what it could to keep people and cultures apart. It didn't succeed, it never does. Jazz wasn't invented nor was it developed only by African-Americans (unless we accept the claim made by Jelly Roll Morton), it was far more complex than that. It took decades and wasn't a straight line from hollering cotton pickers to Dixieland to Swing to Bebop.

 

I think one of the major mistakes we do when we look upon this historically is that we think that since most great jazz musicians have been Africa-Americans then these people are in some way inherently more musical, which actually is a very racist thought. The thing is instead that music has been one of the few ways for African-Americans to "make it" in the US, just like sports.

[Terje]

"Just because it's improvised doesn't mean it's jazz" Just thought I'd though out what Wayne Krantz says about this exact topic... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4TCD4MFF4 He still considers himself a jazz player.

 

 

Nice clip and wise words that address the initial topic of this thread.

[captain average]

the idea that african rhythms "went south" but not north, that's just {censored}ing stupid. and you're the one saying racist {censored} like the black influence on music is less that 5% or whatever figure it was. you're telling me that a musical genre invented in black cities and played by black people had nothing to do with black people? man, i don't even know why anyone's even entertaining your thoughts.

[Pascal]

you're telling me that a musical genre invented in black cities and played by black people had nothing to do with black people?

 

 

No, that's not what he is saying.

 

Read again.

[Jawbreakerr]

No, the influence from classical music upon jazz is of another kind htan what you describe, but I see your point and it is valid to the extent that at a later stage in jazz development composers like Duke Ellington, who can't be said to have been part in inventing jazz really, definitely checked out classical music for inspiration and for material. But your argument is flawed nonetheless. First of all there is the element of time. Western classical music had been around for a while when jazz started to develop and was still the norm when and if someone wanted to study music seriously. In many ways it still is. In any case, the things in classical music that are directly necessary for jazz to exist, even in its earlier forms are in favor of what I've been saying. Without the well tempered scale there would be no jazz. The ability to go from key to key in the same tune is essential. So many jazz standards are completely unthinkable without this. To write out just the basic chord progression and then have the bass player improvise the bass line was the norm for baroque I've been told. They wrote the chords with numbers... now, where have I seen that before... I think everyone who was interested in music actually payed attention to the development of jazz, no matter the color of their skin, but that racism did what it could to keep people and cultures apart. It didn't succeed, it never does. Jazz wasn't invented nor was it developed only by African-Americans (unless we accept the claim made by Jelly Roll Morton), it was far more complex than that. It took decades and wasn't a straight line from hollering cotton pickers to Dixieland to Swing to Bebop. I think one of the major mistakes we do when we look upon this historically is that we think that since most great jazz musicians have been Africa-Americans then these people are in some way inherently more musical, which actually is a very racist thought. The thing is instead that music has been one of the few ways for African-Americans to "make it" in the US, just like sports.

I dont think its any coincidence that im in school for Jazz studies, yet i have to take 4 semesters of classical theory. the harmony is directly related. without the well tempered scale, wed be playing ragas till our fingers fall off.

did hip hop come from Africa too?

[Knottyhed]

the idea that african rhythms "went south" but not north, that's just {censored}ing stupid. and you're the one saying racist {censored} like the black influence on music is less that 5% or whatever figure it was. you're telling me that a musical genre invented in black cities and played by black people had nothing to do with black people? man, i don't even know why anyone's even entertaining your thoughts.

Black != African. It is probably true to say that none of the musicians inventing jazz at the start of the 20th century had ever been to Africa or heard *truly* traditional African music. They'd heard African influenced western music - e.g. Gospel etc. and western 'white peoples' music, but not actual traditional African music. Re-reading the posts with that in mind should clear up Terje's point of view for you.

I knew this'd turn into a sh*t storm

[Knottyhed]

I dont think its any coincidence that im in school for Jazz studies, yet i have to take 4 semesters of classical theory. the harmony is directly related. without the well tempered scale, wed be playing ragas till our fingers fall off. did hip hop come from Africa too?

Funny I was at a wedding in Africa a few months back and they had traditional African dancing and music at the reception... I don't recall hearing any hip-hop/rap music, jazz or RnB

These genre's are undeniably 'black', but as far as I can see have bugger all to do with traditional African music. I don't see why Terje is being racist for making the point that musically speaking jazz has more in common with classical music? It's just true... to say it has more in common with traditional african music is just political correctness gone mad IMO.

[Virgman]

Jazz was invented in the USA by black Americans (not Africans from Africa) in the New Orleans area.

 

The Great American Songbook was mainly written by Jewish-Americans from NYC and it boroughs.

 

Other good things to know:

 

Buddy Rich perfected drumming while stoned.

 

Einstein invented relativity in Princeton, NJ.

 

Edison perfected the lightbulb in NJ.

 

Les Paul invented the Les Paul.

 

McDonald's perfected fast food.

 

Chuck Berry invented rock guitar.

 

Mike Nesmith's mother invented whiteout correction fluid.

 

Tony Iommi invented heavy metal.

 

Eddie Van Halen popularized tapping.

 

Yngwie Malmsteen popularized shred.

[blumonk]

Yngwie Malmsteen popularized shred.

 

 

Actually Herman Li did.

[Virgman]

Actually Herman Li did.

 

 

No way.

 

Yngwie is a god.

 

Everybody knows that.

[blumonk]

Yngwie was a god. Everybody knows that.

[MalusAranea]

No, I haven't, and doing so would be silly. The pioneers of jazz, and most of the greats I can think of and name, were African-Americans. This is the political side of it and has very little to do with the music actually and how it sounds and what's influenced it. Just like you I simply cannot hear a very clear african influence on jazz. It's there, somwhere, possibly... really, it's very small. I've been asked to give examples to back up my opinion and I have. I'll do it once again, hoping that someone will try to argue against me at least using musical arguments and not political or racial. Listen to the bass line in Bach's Air (On The G-String). It's a descending line, a walking bass line, quarter notes most of it as far as I can remember, at least the first 12 bars of it. Incidentally the first theme is 12 bars long but I'm not gonna argue tha Bach invented the blues, don't worry. But just have a sax player play the violin part and then a stand up bass... ask them to play with a less rigid feel than would be normal. Take the Rusian Dance from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite. It isn't hard to make that sound like jazz folks. It's been done. I know that this in itself is more an example of how jazz musicians can play with whatever they like but try doing the same thing with some West African folk music and you'll hear what I'm talking about because that's not gonna adapt to jazz as easily. Why? Because it won't have the movement, either in melody lines nor in harmony. Baroque music has a lot of movement and a lot of drive. Granted at the time most of this relentless rhythm was written as 16th notes but all you have to do with Bach's Two Part Inventions is to hear the 16th notes as 8th notes and then play the lines with a little less straight feel and you have... jazz dammit! You have two lines that could have been a horn player and a bass doing a duo jazz gig! Without the tempered scale jazz standards such as Body And Soul, In A Sentimental Mood and Chelsea Bridge would be completely unthinkable because they would sound so extremely out of tune. This change happened in Europe and without it jazz is unthinkable. This does not make jazz into a european invention but it means that there is a strong european influence, a fundamental influence. So, I'm beggin those of you who think I'm wrong here to come up with some real music examples because that's hat I'm talking about. Not who invented it but how the music actually sounds and what that reminds you of. If atune like The Nearness of You reminds you of traditional West African folk music then you have a different ear than me.

Re-reading this thread. I see where I was confused with Terje's argument. He's fighting to say that african folk music had little to nothing to do with jazz. The way that my nationality is "African american" and not African. This argument can be disputed by historians.

My argument is that the origins of Jazz came from the South, played by Black musicians. This is a fact and not a "romanticism." The reason why this needs to be fought is because many people try to downplay and not acknowledge the role that Black musicians had on the art form. You could visibly see Miles was constantly fighting the Racism, and deservedly so.

So, I agree with Terje to an extent that european ideas were included in the development in Jazz, but I am not going to deny that there would be no Jazz without black musicians.



- spidey

[Terje]

the idea that african rhythms "went south" but not north, that's just {censored}ing stupid.

 

 

No,it's not and obviously you've never played samba or merenuge (or some of the other rhythms from Latin America). If you had, and if you'd also listened to traditional West African music you'd know that musically this is where the similarities are, not in jazz or blues.

 

 

and you're the one saying racist {censored} like the black influence on music is less that 5% or whatever figure it was.

 

 

That's not racist, please. Or actually it is. Let's skip that word black for now because it'sgot nothing to do with it. We were talking about african music and african musicla influence on jazz. I donb'tcareif the peoplewho played the music on either side of the Atlantic were blue, this isn'tabout race it's about cultureand geography.

 

 

you're telling me that a musical genre invented in black cities and played by black people had nothing to do with black people? man, i don't even know why anyone's even entertaining your thoughts.

 

 

No, I'm telling you that it has very little to do with traditional african music, black, blue, green or yellow.

[Terje]

My argument is that the origins of Jazz came from the South, played by Black musicians. This is a fact and not a "romanticism."

 

 

Very true, the romanticism part is the one about all this music coming out of Africa. Just because the majority of the musicians who pioneered it were of african descent doesn't make the music itself african and it is actually the insisting upon calling it so that strikes me as somehwat racist.

 

 

The reason why this needs to be fought is because many people try to downplay and not acknowledge the role that Black musicians had on the art form. You could visibly see Miles was constantly fighting the Racism, and deservedly so. - spidey

 

 

If I at any point in this argument actually said anything to downplay any of the great masters of jazz you are free to shoot me, OK. I'm just pointing out to you and everyone else here that Louis Armstrong was american (or Afro-American if you need to be very P.C.) and not african. The music he played wasn't african and wasn't that much influenced by traditional african music.

 

Listen to Bird, listen to traditional west african music and then listen to Bach and tell me which one is morelikely to have infleunced Bird's lines.

[captain average]

well, i've played various south american rhythms, brazilian, cuban, mexican... and there is rhythmic carryover from african music allllll over jazz. there's also phrasing, melodies, and harmonies carried over from african music in jazz. it's there in the blues, it's all over the place in hip hop. for me it's most transparent in the drums. it's there in pop and folk. country is hugely african. the banjo is an african instrument, pretty much.

[Poparad]

 

the banjo is an african instrument, pretty much.

 

 

 

The banjo is an American instrument created by black slaves in the South. They were descendants of Africans, but the instrument was created in America.

 

There are some African stringed instruments which can be connected to the lineage of the banjo, but the banjo is still American. This is much like how the classical guitar is a Spanish invention, though it can be traced back to the Middle Eastern oud through their intermediary instrument the lute.

[Knottyhed]

The banjo is an American instrument created by black slaves in the South. They were descendants of Africans, but the instrument was created in America. There are some African stringed instruments which can be connected to the lineage of the banjo, but the banjo is still American. This is much like how the classical guitar is a Spanish invention, though it can be traced back to the Middle Eastern oud through their intermediary instrument the lute.

 

 

African + is a concept that only exists in America I think? In the UK we have black people and we have white people, we're all British on account of the fact that we have been born and raised here, usually for more than one generation. Yet in America, it seems people will be described as Afro-American even though they can trace their American lineage back through at least 6 generations and have never been to Africa?!

 

Seems to me that some people don't see a difference between an influence from the black American community and an influence that comes right out of Africa. I think it is a big distinction, as I understand - slaves brought over from Africa were not allowed to express their own religions or traditions or music. It is probably safe to say black musicians in the 1920's had only a little more exposure to African music and culture than white musicians.

 

You could argue that by overplaying the African component, the 'PC brigade' are seeking to gloss over the musical, social and religious oppression suffered by black African slaves in the 19th century.

 

All music, to some extent or another is related to other forms of music... it basically boils down to what sounds good to the human ear and what doesn't. The similarities between traditional African music and Jazz is not as strong as those between Jazz and Classical.

[Terje]

well, i've played various south american rhythms, brazilian, cuban, mexican... and there is rhythmic carryover from african music allllll over jazz. there's also phrasing, melodies, and harmonies carried over from african music in jazz.

 

 

I really don't hear this at all. Latin American music, sure. Jazz? No, no way. A very minor part of what's jazz may be possible to trace to traditional african roots but mainly I hear western classical harmony, from baroque and onwards.

 

Everything that you find in jazz as far as harmony is concerned is covered in classical music. Everything and more and far beyond that. Don't belive me? Try some Charles Ives if you want to know what "free form classical music" is (with the exception that it's written down it's way more "out" than any "free form jazz I've ever heard).

 

Rhythmically I hear mostly marching band music in swing. Or baroque, which also has a relentless, driving bass line as its basis. This is why I find it so easy to listen to Bach or Vivaldi, they keep the pulse going, like any jazz musician would, unlike some other classical music which might be great but does not appeal to me because of its lack of rhythmic drive.

 

Melodically that's also where most of the inspiration comes from. Again I ask you to play something from Bach's Two Part Inventions (for example) and then compare that to a few lines from Bird and then compare that to traditional West African music and please tell me where you find the deep african roots in Bird's lines. The fact that Bird had dark skin has nothing to do with it.

[Terje]

African + is a concept that only exists in America I think? In the UK we have black people and we have white people, we're all British on account of the fact that we have been born and raised here, usually for more than one generation. Yet in America, it seems people will be described as Afro-American even though they can trace their American lineage back through at least 6 generations and have never been to Africa?! Seems to me that some people don't see a difference between an influence from the black American community and an influence that comes right out of Africa. I think it is a big distinction, as I understand - slaves brought over from Africa were not allowed to express their own religions or traditions or music. It is probably safe to say black musicians in the 1920's had only a little more exposure to African music and culture than white musicians. You could argue that by overplaying the African component, the 'PC brigade' are seeking to gloss over the musical, social and religious oppression suffered by black African slaves in the 19th century. All music, to some extent or another is related to other forms of music... it basically boils down to what sounds good to the human ear and what doesn't. The similarities between traditional African music and Jazz is not as strong as those between Jazz and Classical.

 

 

I could not, in fact I did not say it better myself.

[captain average]

rhythmically, you should try listening to the drummer sometime.

[Terje]

rhythmically, you should try listening to the drummer sometime.

 

 

I do, I have, and that's why I keep repeating what I've said so far. Jazz drumming has less to do with West Africa and more in common with marching bands.

 

Really, what exactly in jazz drumming is it that leads your thoughts to Africa? Jazz drummers tune too low for african tastes, generally, and not carefully enough generally, so just there is a huge difference.

 

Jazz drumming in general is about the use of a drumkit in a particular way, especially a combination of snare and hihat. That particular sounds is very american and really comes from no other place.

 

I'll agree with you on one point though. In the music that I've been pointing to as important sources for jazz the drums play a much smaller part than they do in jazz.

 

However, to simply say that this points to Africa is to give in to the most silly musical clich

[Pascal]

[YOUTUBE]wUXK0cw9xss[/YOUTUBE]

[captain average]

1st of all, a {censored} ton of marching band rhythms are african rhythms.
second of all, i'm right and you know it.
third of all, every time i sit there and learn a new djembe rhythm, i see it all over music. in rock, hip hop, marching bands, and yes, in jazz. it's there, and it's unmistakable. deal with it.

you know what? new orleans isn't completely underwater. next time you have some free time in the spring, go down there, catch some parades, catch some jazz. you'll see it.

[Terje]

1st of all, a {censored} ton of marching band rhythms are african rhythms. second of all, i'm right and you know it. third of all, every time i sit there and learn a new djembe rhythm, i see it all over music. in rock, hip hop, marching bands, and yes, in jazz. it's there, and it's unmistakable. deal with it. you know what? new orleans isn't completely underwater. next time you have some free time in the spring, go down there, catch some parades, catch some jazz. you'll see it.

 

 

I really do want to go to New Orleans. Never been and it's one of thoseplaces I'd really like to see and experience before I die. Shame that it was flooded so badly. Spring you say? Thanks for the tip.

 

I'm sure I'll love the music. I'm sure I'll hear african inspired rhythms all over the place too. At this point in history that doens't really prove anything but nevermind, I do admit that you have a point there. Still though, when I listen to regular jazz druming it still sounds less african to me and more typically american. But sure, the drumming has little to do with european classical music, that's for sure.

 

The rest of jazz does however and that's also very hard to deny. To deny that there is a link between the bass lines in jazz and the way basslines sound in baroque is to deny that the sun shines during the day. To deny that the melodic and harmonic content in jazz standards is heavily influenced by classical music is also to deny the extremely obvious.

 

Marching bands... in Sweden our marching bands are a strange mix. They play regular marches but now and then the drummers are let lose and soemthing funny happens. The otherwise typically heavy accent on the first beat so typical of Scandinavia and scandinavian musicians is transformed for a moment to something syncopated and dancing. It doens't sound swedish at all, it sounds like... like... like turkish music and the reason i that one of our more stupid kings took some turkish drummers with him after some failed battle tour he did. They came to Stockholm and formed a school here.

 

Does this mean that swedish marching band music is turkish?

[Terje]

Let's change topic for a moment... Pascal, for the love of God, who is the woman? Don't know if I like her singing but I could look at her dance for a whole week.

Anyway, I'll post a clip here that backs up my point in this argumentation. A little corny but to the point nonetheless.

[YOUTUBE]miB8p0Kgv5c[/YOUTUBE]