Just because it's improvised doesn't mean it's jazz

[MalusAranea]

I agree, which is why I did not say that . I said that the african influence is perhaps less than 5% and that jazz is american music more than anything else. The influences that come from other continents are mainly from europe though. On the music. Let's separate the music from the politics here.

 

 

Then why wasn't there American jazz earlier than when it came?

 

Are you also denying what the roots of the blues are?

 

- spidey

[trill]

This whole discussion is sort of crazy, and some of the things Terje said are borderline racist.

 

Talking about the origins of jazz (and blues) is always really difficult, because it was almost one of those inventions, like the steam engine, that sprung up simultaneously in different places. We don't typically think of cultural trends moving very quickly in the days before mass media, but that really seems to be the case with jazz (and most other forms of popular music in the early half of the 20th century). When you've got groups on the West Coast being described as jazz as early as 1907, the Storyville scene in New Orleans (where Jelly Roll Morton claims he heard jazz as early as 1899), James Reese Europe's Syncopated Orchestras in the 1910's/20's in Europe, and white "Dixieland" groups in New York being the first stuff to get recorded, the water gets really muddy really quickly. And that's before you factor in the contemporaneous development of the blues; the current cultural myth is that it came out of the backwoods of the Delta, when, as far as we can tell based on testimony and audio recordings, it was a much more urban-centric style at its inception.

 

I suggest everyone read Alyn Shipton's New History of Jazz, and Elijah Wald's Escaping the Delta, among others. Until we're all a bit more informed on the facts of the topic, let's stick to what we know (guitar/music theory) and leave the genre discussions to the musicologists and historians.

[Pascal]

This whole discussion is sort of crazy, and some of the things Terje said are borderline racist.

I think I can vouch for Terje here. He certainly isn't racist.

[trill]

I think I can vouch for Terje here. He certainly isn't racist.

No, I didn't say he was, and he probably isn't. I was mostly referring to "Yeah, yeah, jazz came from Africa. It was invented there by illiterate bushmen who used to sing these songs to celebrate the full moon," which is a bit harsh/insensitive, and when you're already writing off the perception of Africa's contribution to jazz as "overly romantic," it's probably best to err on the side of caution.

[Terje]

Then why wasn't there American jazz earlier than when it came? Are you also denying what the roots of the blues are? - spidey

 

 

It had to be invented at some point, right? It couldn't exist before it was invented. If the african link is the most important one then why wasn't jazz invented earlier than it was, right? There were African-Americans in America long before jazz or blues was invented.

 

A lot of things had to come together for jazz to be invented. The african influence is one of those things but it's not the most important one by far, expect from a political point of view perhaps, but musicaly there are other sources that are more important IMO.

 

What are actually the roots of blues? How much of what we call the blues actually comes from Africa? I mean, can you actually point out the african source that leads directly to blues? Please enlighten me. I know there is supposed to be some West African scale that may be the source of the blues scale. However, since the blues scale can be heard from different angles too it's not so sure.

 

Is the blues scale a minor pentatonic scale with an added b5th? Is it an approximation of this West Arican scale? Or is it the major scale with some notes flattened/in motion? Is it the meeting of West African folk music and wester psalms and hymns? Or is it all of these things?

 

Where does the shuffle rhythm come from? It does not sound that distinctly african to me. It does however sound very american. Jaz and blues were invented in America. The african influence is one of many and not the most important in either case, although I'd say more important in blues than in jazz.

[Terje]

No, I didn't say he was, and he probably isn't. I was mostly referring to "Yeah, yeah, jazz came from Africa. It was invented there by illiterate bushmen who used to sing these songs to celebrate the full moon," which is a bit harsh/insensitive, and when you're already writing off the perception of Africa's contribution to jazz as "overly romantic," it's probably best to err on the side of caution.

 

 

That as a sarcastic comment on what I call "african romanticism" where the roots of jazz have to be found in Africa in order for music history to be politically correct. That is in itself a kind of racism. Just because the slave trade was one of the a biggest crime against humanity it doesn't mean that we can or should even try to "compensate" for that by trying too hard to make everything that's great about american music have "african roots".

[Mark Wein]

 

Is it possible to make it less bluesy than this?

 

 

Thanks for the Django!

[trill]

It had to be invented at some point, right? It couldn't exist before it was invented. If the african link is the most important one then why wasn't jazz invented earlier than it was, right? There were African-Americans in America long before jazz or blues was invented. A lot of things had to come together for jazz to be invented. The african influence is one of those things but it's not the most important one by far, expect from a political point of view perhaps, but musicaly there are other sources that are more important IMO.

 

 

If 95% of the components necessary for the creation of jazz were around, according to your view, since the 17th century, why did it take until the late 19th century (coincidentally approximately one generation after slaves in the South were granted some freedom, however limited) for the explosion of jazz's development to take place? And why were about 80% of the form's principal developers (New Orleans brass band players, barrelhouse pianist and ragtime composers) African-American or Creole?

 

I'm not interested in discussing this any further, really, I'm just trying to show you how wildly unaware of the facts a non-Afro-centric view of jazz history SEEMS TO BE. I may be completely wrong about this, but everything I've read on the subject, and all of the early jazz, blues, European classical, and traditional African music I've listened to is on my side. If you're sticking to this view, you've got a lot more explaining to do than simply asking others to prove you wrong by showing you some scale patterns.

[MalusAranea]

If 95% of the components necessary for the creation of jazz were around, according to your view, since the 17th century, why did it take until the late 19th century (coincidentally approximately one generation after slaves in the South were granted some freedom, however limited) for the explosion of jazz's development to take place? And why were about 80% of the form's principal developers (New Orleans brass band players, barrelhouse pianist and ragtime composers) African-American or Creole? I'm not interested in discussing this any further, really, I'm just trying to show you how wildly unaware of the facts a non-Afro-centric view of jazz history SEEMS TO BE. I may be completely wrong about this, but everything I've read on the subject, and all of the early jazz, blues, European classical, and traditional African music I've listened to is on my side. If you're sticking to this view, you've got a lot more explaining to do than simply asking others to prove you wrong by showing you some scale patterns.

It really isn't neccesary to try to reason with this guy. He's not listening to anyone but himself. He's trying to discredit the black origins of jazz, and black musicians. I'm sure if this was on a national discussion level somebody would agree with him.

He's still trying to prove that a scale is jazz music.

What are actually the roots of blues?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_blues

How much of what we call the blues actually comes from Africa?

Only the slave influence, what was that 2%?

I mean, can you actually point out the african source that leads directly to blues? Please enlighten me.

Slave Gospels, Spirituals, Work songs, Field chants.

Is the blues scale a minor pentatonic scale with an added b5th? Is it an approximation of this West Arican scale? Or is it the major scale with some notes flattened/in motion? Is it the meeting of West African folk music and wester psalms and hymns? Or is it all of these things?

Most slaves were executed for knowing how to read or write. How many of them even knew what a scale was? When they were finally able to play western instruments such as the piano and guitar. It was all self taught, and they were forced to learn songs from the GREAT AMERICAN SONGBOOK to play for there slave owners.

Jazz and blues were invented in America.

Again that argument is dead in the water. Where did the name Jazz come from? So, if the european musicians you speak of didn't call it jazz. Why should we?

That as a sarcastic comment on what I call "african romanticism" where the roots of jazz have to be found in Africa in order for music history to be politically correct. That is in itself a kind of racism. Just because the slave trade was one of the a biggest crime against humanity it doesn't mean that we can or should even try to "compensate" for that by trying too hard to make everything that's great about american music have "african roots".

I'm going to actually defend him on this one. His argument is slightly racist, but he doesn't seem to be. Does he know that he's arguing the roots of Jazz music with a black musician who just walked the 9th ward in New Orleans? Probably not, I wouldn't label him racist. Ignorant maybe.

[Terje]

If 95% of the components necessary for the creation of jazz were around, according to your view, since the 17th century, why did it take until the late 19th century (coincidentally approximately one generation after slaves in the South were granted some freedom, however limited) for the explosion of jazz's development to take place? And why were about 80% of the form's principal developers (New Orleans brass band players, barrelhouse pianist and ragtime composers) African-American or Creole?

Let's focus on the important word here... African-American. Jazz and blues are mainly american music. It was invented in the US by people born in the US, brought up in the US and filled with the american culture the way it was at the time and this more than anything else is what created jazz.

American culture at the time had a lot of european influence, like it or not, since the vast majority of the people living in the US came from Europe.

I'm not interested in discussing this any further, really,...

Then why are you?

... I'm just trying to show you how wildly unaware of the facts a non-Afro-centric view of jazz history SEEMS TO BE. I may be completely wrong about this, but everything I've read on the subject, and all of the early jazz, blues, European classical, and traditional African music I've listened to is on my side. If you're sticking to this view, you've got a lot more explaining to do than simply asking others to prove you wrong by showing you some scale patterns.

I've listened to african music too and I can't say I've really heard much that sounds like jazz. I've heard lots of great african music, that's for sure, but nothing that sounds jazzy at all. However, traditional brass music from the Balkans sounds like New Orleans jazz, with a twist.

Baroque swings like crazy, depending on who plays it but still, the elements that make music swing are there. The music of Bach and Vivaldi is driving and if you compare their lines to the lines of someone like Bird you'll notice that they do have lots in common and more in common than Bird had with any traditional West African musician.

[blumonk]

go tell a black man jazz ain't his

[captain average]

you don't hear swing and jazz in african music? that's tough to believe. all those jazz rhythms come from new orleans.

saying jazz isn't african influenced is like saying gumbo is swedish because swedes make stew.

[1001gear]

Good analogy. Fascinating (yes I'm actually Mr. Spock) this fine art of not trolling. Good thing this jam ain't in Swedish.

[Terje]

you don't hear swing and jazz in african music? that's tough to believe. all those jazz rhythms come from new orleans. saying jazz isn't african influenced is like saying gumbo is swedish because swedes make stew.

 

 

No, I don't hear swing in african music. I hear great rhythms, just like I do when I listen to arabic or indian music, but I don't hear swing. The rhythms of Africa went further south, they went to South America. When I listen to samba the african roots are very obvious. Jazz? Not really. There is an african influence, sure, but it's small.

 

I do hear swing in baroque bass lines, depending on who is playing it. Adras Schiff for instance. Listen to that and tell me it doesn't swing, even in the modern jazz sense of the word.

 

Maybe it's more like this. The only way to make it for a black man (or woman) in the US, back in those days and to a certain extent even today, was through fame, not education and a well paid job, because racism kept (and perhaps still keeps) that door closed. For this reason as much as any other we've got all these great black jazz musicians (and today athletes).

[Pascal]

you don't hear swing and jazz in african music? that's tough to believe. all those jazz rhythms come from new orleans. saying jazz isn't african influenced is like saying gumbo is swedish because swedes make stew.

I only had gumbo once (in Houston), and was a bit disappointed, seeing how it tasted more or less like your average French fish soup, but with prawns/crayfish thrown in.




True story.

[blumonk]

chicken sausage and shrimp gumbo for the win

[Pascal]

The rhythms of Africa went further south, they went to South America. When I listen to samba the african roots are very obvious. Jazz?

 

 

 

They were actually re-introduced into jazz later by Dizzy and Chano Pozo, after being filtered/having evolved in Cuba.

[Knottyhed]

Not that I particularly care for jazz (or where it came from), I think those suggesting that Terje is being racist or his argument with are using political correctness as a way of avoiding an actual debate - something that seems to happen alot these days and something that really bothers me.

Terje hasn't at any point tried to say that jazz wasn't predominantly invented by black people in black communities... (has he?)

I think some people are having trouble separating being black from being African and I'm also not sure how being black makes anyone a greater authority on music history.

Not that Terje needs anyone to defend him - but I don't think he has mentioned race once (unlike some); he's simply arguing that he hears mostly european influence.

To be honest, I can his point... jazz was invented in black communities, living in a euro-centric country and culture using european instruments. Most of those who were inventing jazz in the early 20th century had no doubt had at least or 2 or 3 generations worth of separation from Africa and so had their 'traditional' music. It's a no-brainer that there would be strong european influence.

I also don't hear a direct connection between traditional african music and jazz. It certainly isn't as apparent as the connection between say rock and blues. I'm sure the African component is there, but there's a hell of alot of other influences too and it can't be said that one directly evolved from the other I don't think. As to whether you can put a percentage on it... well, frankly - who cares?

[blumonk]

[blumonk]

actually i don't remember anyone saying that if something is improvised, it is jazz

most of all jazz has improvisation

most of all rock does not have improvisation

[Terje]

Terje hasn't at any point tried to say that jazz wasn't predominantly invented by black people in black communities... (has he?)

 

 

No, I haven't, and doing so would be silly. The pioneers of jazz, and most of the greats I can think of and name, were African-Americans. This is the political side of it and has very little to do with the music actually and how it sounds and what's influenced it.

 

Just like you I simply cannot hear a very clear african influence on jazz. It's there, somwhere, possibly... really, it's very small.

 

I've been asked to give examples to back up my opinion and I have. I'll do it once again, hoping that someone will try to argue against me at least using musical arguments and not political or racial.

 

Listen to the bass line in Bach's Air (On The G-String). It's a descending line, a walking bass line, quarter notes most of it as far as I can remember, at least the first 12 bars of it. Incidentally the first theme is 12 bars long but I'm not gonna argue tha Bach invented the blues, don't worry. But just have a sax player play the violin part and then a stand up bass... ask them to play with a less rigid feel than would be normal.

 

Take the Rusian Dance from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker Suite. It isn't hard to make that sound like jazz folks. It's been done. I know that this in itself is more an example of how jazz musicians can play with whatever they like but try doing the same thing with some West African folk music and you'll hear what I'm talking about because that's not gonna adapt to jazz as easily. Why? Because it won't have the movement, either in melody lines nor in harmony.

 

Baroque music has a lot of movement and a lot of drive. Granted at the time most of this relentless rhythm was written as 16th notes but all you have to do with Bach's Two Part Inventions is to hear the 16th notes as 8th notes and then play the lines with a little less straight feel and you have... jazz dammit! You have two lines that could have been a horn player and a bass doing a duo jazz gig!

 

Without the tempered scale jazz standards such as Body And Soul, In A Sentimental Mood and Chelsea Bridge would be completely unthinkable because they would sound so extremely out of tune. This change happened in Europe and without it jazz is unthinkable. This does not make jazz into a european invention but it means that there is a strong european influence, a fundamental influence.

 

So, I'm beggin those of you who think I'm wrong here to come up with some real music examples because that's hat I'm talking about. Not who invented it but how the music actually sounds and what that reminds you of. If atune like The Nearness of You reminds you of traditional West African folk music then you have a different ear than me.

[Raoul Duke!]

Terje, correct me if I'm wrong,(and I certainly could be) but isn't you argument putting something into the music that wasn't there to begin with? Just because I play say, Sympathy for the Devil with an orchestra, it wouldn't really reveal that the Rolling Stones were heavily influenced by classical music in their composition, would it?

My point is, given only 12 notes to work with, some are bound to get used together more often than others just because they sound good. I don't claim that Jazz couldn't have been influenced by classical music, but to say that it was a major impact on a musical style with obscure roots, made by a marginalized part of society that the white man (who decide what gets recorded in history and what doesn't) didn't pay attention to, is sorta far fetched to me.
Also, that doesn't take into account that African Music could have been different 200, or even 100 years ago, than what it is today.

I don't claim to be an authority on music history, however.

[gennation]

"Just because it's improvised doesn't mean it's jazz"

Just thought I'd though out what Wayne Krantz says about this exact topic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4TCD4MFF4

He still considers himself a jazz player.

[Jawbreakerr]

"Just because it's improvised doesn't mean it's jazz" Just thought I'd though out what Wayne Krantz says about this exact topic... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE4TCD4MFF4 He still considers himself a jazz player.

 

 

i love me some krantz. itd be real cool to see him do a instructional dvd. (you ever taken a look at the Improvisers OS?)

[BobFromReboot]

Ordered that book and his cd "A Greenwich Mean" on sunday. I can't wait to get them.