Just because it's improvised doesn't mean it's jazz

[Pascal]

:confused:

+1

[1001gear]

:confused:

Any part in particular or is that a rhetorical statement?
It's just that I'm 30 plus years past being enamored of the miscellaneous ramblings of the creative set. I can still enjoy it, new and old but the more I hear the less quality I hear.
I think there's a huge demographic of music lovers who would embrace plain old good composition - I'd even call it Jazz composition. Without all the bad acting.

[Jawbreakerr]

Any part in particular or is that a rhetorical statement? It's just that I'm 30 plus years past being enamored of the miscellaneous ramblings of the creative set. I can still enjoy it, new and old but the more I hear the less quality I hear. I think there's a huge demographic of music lovers who would embrace plain old good composition - I'd even call it Jazz composition. Without all the bad acting.

 

well i was just a little bit confused.. you write in a very weird way that what you say makes absolutely no sense. and im still not sure what you are talkin about... the "miscellaneous ramblings of a creative set" ??? - are you saying, improvising jazz equals "misceallneous ramblings" that anyone can "hack" through?

 

if there is lack of quality in the majority of the jazz you are hearing, (im assuming you are talking about LIVE jazz) then the only people to blame are the musicians themselves. bad, or uninteresting jazz improvisers are EVERYWHERE. but that doesnt take away from the large body of brilliant music that already exists.

 

maybe you dont "get it" ? - jazz is all about the "bad acting"

 

and "jazz composition" already exists. ALOT goes into composing certain songs in the jazz idiom, before they ever make it to the improv section. alot of Big Band stuff doesnt have any improvised parts (other than a few spots)

 

the day that everyone wants to hear people play rehearsed jazz songs without improvising, ill quit playing guitar. whats the fun in that?

 

i hope i figured out your two encrypted posts enough to figure out what the hell you are talking about,

[Pascal]

Agree, and this is what I find frustrating. Human error. I for one can easily hack my way through too many choruses. There should be a standard repertoire of legit music modeled on Jazz - music that melds the slickness of the new jazz harmonies and rhythms with the craftsmanship of legit music.

I asked you who you listened to in order to have an idea of where you were coming from, thinking I might recommend you things to listen to. Nevermind.

There are no new jazz harmonies. There are no jazz harmonies per se. As Terje said, jazz harmonies are borrowed, in great part from western popular and classical music. What jazz brought was a different interpretation. A different sensibility. Freedom, personal interpretation, individual and collective improvisation. It's not about perfection, it's about life. Not about the composer but about the interpreter. It's fragile, in the moment, highly personal.

You seem to want the jazz without the jazz. Barbara Hendricks singing Summertime with the NY Philarmonic rather than Albert Ayler's version.

Nothing wrong with that. But it just isn't jazz.





(this is, of course, if I understand what you tried to say).

[blumonk]

Jazz came from the USA via African-Americans. You can look it up.

blues you little nooblet. blues came before jazz.

[1001gear]

I asked you who you listened to in order to have an idea of where you were coming from, thinking I might recommend you things to listen to. Nevermind. There are no new jazz harmonies. There are no jazz harmonies per se . As Terje said, jazz harmonies are borrowed, in great part from western popular and classical music. What jazz brought was a different interpretation. A different sensibility. Freedom, personal interpretation, individual and collective improvisation. It's not about perfection, it's about life. Not about the composer but about the interpreter. It's fragile, in the moment, highly personal. You seem to want the jazz without the jazz. Barbara Hendricks singing Summertime with the NY Philarmonic rather than Albert Ayler's version. Nothing wrong with that. But it just isn't jazz. (this is, of course, if I understand what you tried to say).

Well jazz without the BS would be a welcome addition to the genre. Face it being a whole ticket's worth of brilliant off the top of your head is 20 generations down the road. Failing that, I like all kinds of swing and B. Band stuff. Paid close attention to Brubeck when I was into it. Dianna Krall seems promising at the moment. Certain forays into rock instrumentation have also caught my ear. Early Electric band, Tribal tech, as well as Sypro Gryra and (shudder) The Rippingtons.
Not what you'd call the purist stuff but to my tastes, that s**t unfortunately died in the 50s.

New harmonies, ok, semantics again. What I really 'dig' (haha) are those New Englandy polytonal orchestral sonorities. The libraries in Indiana and North Texas may be full of that stuff, I've not heard much of it. Strangely, good lounge pianists seem to be the best at incorporating that stuff. Anyway I see nothing un Jazz about utilizing these textures in finely crafted compositions. It's being done. Just waay not enough.

[Terje]

I'm glad we could have this mature conversation. - spidey

Me too

Seriously though, I did point out already exactly where I think the "evidence" to support what I'm saying lies. In order for the music that is today the bulk of jazz standard tunes, american pop tunes from the 20's, 30's, and 40's some very important steps had to be taken and perhaps the most important of those was the well tempered scale, a step that was taken much earlier and in Europe.

Take a tune like Body and Soul and imagine it without the well tempered scale. Imagine that move from Dd major to D major to D minor and how totally out of tune it would sound. A composer wouldn't even come up with that idea without the well tempered scale. Listen to the bass lines that baroque composers wrote, listen to how much they actually swing and try to just play such lines and have someone improvies jazz clich

[Terje]

Jazz came from the USA via African-Americans. You can look it up.

 

 

Do you mean African-Americans like Gorge and Ira Gerswin, Hoagy Carmichael, Irving Berlin, Johhny Mercer, Rodgers and Hammerstein and Harold Arlen?

 

If we're gonna talk about jazz and completely ignore the Great American Songbook then why are we talking?

[Terje]

There are no new jazz harmonies. There are no jazz harmonies per se . As Terje said, jazz harmonies are borrowed, in great part from western popular and classical music. What jazz brought was a different interpretation. A different sensibility. Freedom, personal interpretation, individual and collective improvisation. It's not about perfection, it's about life. Not about the composer but about the interpreter. It's fragile, in the moment, highly personal.

 

 

Which BTW is exactly the way western classical music was played before it became formalized, around the time of Beethoven, whose improvisations were so great that they became integral parts of the written music. Before then it was up to the soloist to improvise the cadences.

 

Check out the lines that Bach wrote, try for yourself and hear how well they will work in a jazz context.

[Terje]

blues you little nooblet. blues came before jazz.

I'm not so sure about that, it's very blurred what came before what and there's no straight line in jazz and blues history. A lot of "old" blues players were really trying their best to sound like professional stage performers doing pop tunes, failing because of bad instruments and/or lack of musical ability or simply record label restrictions.

Robert Johnson is a case in point, a guy who desperately tried to make it big in Chicago but had to go back and record his "old blues stuff" back in the south because that was all the record companies wanted from him. Damn, if we'd gotten to hear him do more pop stuff or slicker blues like From Four Until Late. We know from Red Hot that he played some mean swing guitar and with that voice of his, I'd love to hear his take on a few pop tunes of that day that later went on to become jazz standards.

[1001gear]

Forgot to answer you. Sorry.
I said pretty much what I meant. And I really think think arguing is a waste of time. I've read through a couple of those D. Metal "discussions" and they get retarded butt quick.
Thanks for putting words in my mouth though I'll clarify in red.

:poke: i hope i figured out your two encrypted posts enough to figure out what the hell you are talking about,

So that's basically it. All I'm saying is for those that can, write better music.

[Pascal]

Sorry, 1001gear, but I can't take your critique of the shape of jazz composition today seriously if the only musicians you're going to cite are Brubeck, Dianna Krall (sic) the Early Electric band, Tribal tech, Sypro Gryra (re-sic), The Rippingtons and lounge piano players.

 

Sorry.

 

[blumonk]

I'm not so sure about that, it's very blurred what came before what and there's no straight line in jazz and blues history. A lot of "old" blues players were really trying their best to sound like professional stage performers doing pop tunes, failing because of bad instruments and/or lack of musical ability or simply record label restrictions. Robert Johnson is a case in point, a guy who desperately tried to make it big in Chicago but had to go back and record his "old blues stuff" back in the south because that was all the record companies wanted from him. Damn, if we'd gotten to hear him do more pop stuff or slicker blues like From Four Until Late. We know from Red Hot that he played some mean swing guitar and with that voice of his, I'd love to hear his take on a few pop tunes of that day that later went on to become jazz standards.

 

 

can't play good jazz without knowing the blues

can play good blues without knowing jazz

[Pascal]

can't play good jazz without knowing the blues

Tell that to Django.
The only Blues to be found in his music is in the titles.

[1001gear]

Sorry, 1001gear, but I can't take your critique of the shape of jazz composition today seriously if the only musicians you're going to cite are Brubeck, Dianna Krall (sic) the Early Electric band, Tribal tech, Sypro Gryra (re-sic) , The Rippingtons and lounge piano players. Sorry.

Not asking for your approval. No need to be sorry. You can go read the Schwann catalog if want a big list.
Speaking of that I would still welcome any suggested listening. I have a full plate but I'd like to get a glimpse at your stuff.

[Virgman]

Do you mean African-Americans like Gorge and Ira Gerswin, Hoagy Carmichael, Irving Berlin, Johhny Mercer, Rodgers and Hammerstein and Harold Arlen? If we're gonna talk about jazz and completely ignore the Great American Songbook then why are we talking?

 

 

Ok. Jazz came from a bunch of Jewish guys.

[Jed]

Ok. Jazz came from a bunch of Jewish guys.

 

 

"Remember, jazz is jewish." - Terge

[Virgman]

"Remember, jazz is jewish." - Terge

[blumonk]

Tell that to Django. The only Blues to be found in his music is in the titles.

You've never heard of Minor Swing?

[MalusAranea]

Me too Seriously though, I did point out already exactly where I think the "evidence" to support what I'm saying lies. In order for the music that is today the bulk of jazz standard tunes, american pop tunes from the 20's, 30's, and 40's some very important steps had to be taken and perhaps the most important of those was the well tempered scale, a step that was taken much earlier and in Europe. Take a tune like Body and Soul and imagine it without the well tempered scale. Imagine that move from Dd major to D major to D minor and how totally out of tune it would sound. A composer wouldn't even come up with that idea without the well tempered scale. Listen to the bass lines that baroque composers wrote, listen to how much they actually swing and try to just play such lines and have someone improvies jazz clich

[1001gear]

"Remember, jazz is jewish." - Terge

 

 

Hence this familiar expression. Yadeh yadeh yadeh ...

[Terje]

To say that there is only 5% of African/American influence in Jazz is PURE ignorance.

 

 

I agree, which is why I did not say that. I said that the african influence is perhaps less than 5% and that jazz is american music more than anything else. The influences that come from other continents are mainly from europe though. On the music. Let's separate the music from the politics here.

[Terje]

Ok. Jazz came from a bunch of Jewish guys.

 

 

The jewish influence on jazz is huge.

 

BTW, have you listened to brass music from the Balkans? If not, please do that and then come back and tell me there is no european influence on jazz... please...

[Pascal]

You've never heard of Minor Swing?

 

 

Is it possible to make it less bluesy than this?

[sumpm1]

There is strong evidence suggesting that jazz is Russian, very much so.