Do you ever think that you are losing touch when you get better?

[Drew5887]

The other day I was listening to some fusion in the car and my girlfriend was there (who has excellent musical taste), and she didn't like it at all. I started to explain that it is changing keys all over the place, and that the guys are playing runs in 16th notes in melodic minor modes and resolving on chord tones (not in those words), and I realized that in my own journey as a musician, I have kind of lost touch with what music sounds like to non-musicians, and even what I liked about music to begin with.

 

This was reinforced this weekend when I went to a recital for students of my guitar teacher. Listening to these guys play classical guitar, technical rock, and jazz was boring! Much of this is that they are amateurs and are not experienced performers, but it was still an insight into why people find it funny when I tell them that I listen to jazz and classical and stuff.

 

I have been thinking that there is music that is made to be listened to, and music that is made to be played, and that all too often skilled musicians confuse the two. This has been very unmotivating because why practice inversions of altered chords, or soloing over charlie parker if it doesn't sound good to most people? It's like working really hard on a sculpture that will only be appreciated by other artists, and mildly disliked by non-artists. Why do it?

 

Do any of you guys feel that you have lost touch with the untrained listener that you once were? How do you reconcile your more "evolved" musical tastes with the knowledge that the vast majority of people would rather listen to Celine Dion?

[donut jones]

i'd say MOST people would find a guitar recital boring.

 

anyway, i believe that if you're good enough, you will eventually be appreciated. a lot of great musicians took a while to be appreciated.

[freetime]

The average person probably finds Garth Brooks and Lil Wayne more entertaining than Paul Gilbert and Eric Johnson instrumentals.

[donut jones]

garth brooks is a bloated sack of {censored} and lil wayne's selling crap to 13 year olds.

[YeahDoIt]

Do you ever think that you are losing touch when you get better?

 

All the time.

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

Not really, you just hear music differently than before you learned all this stuff.

[Mr Songwriter]

I think some of the more technically complicated forms of music are often an acquired taste, if someone has been listening to mainstream rock/pop/whatever for most of their life, Jazz, shred etc can be hard to take in. It's not what they're conditioned to hearing.

[jeremy_green]

Hey Drew,

 

I 100% relate to your story and think definitely yes you lose some perspective as you improve. For me the issue is - I think I have done a good job with staying in touch with my core love (I still regularly listen to rock old and new and seem to still get excited as a listener) the problem is other players of an equal playing skill level most of them have "moved on" to jazz or a higher "more mature" style of music. So for me to find other good players who just enjoy slamming it out is tough.

 

This is probably the reason guys like Zappa ended up going the route he did. You need to play the accessible stuff if you want to make any real big money and use that to fund your true love or goals.

 

I kind of do this - clearly not to that level but i throw together a gig band from time to time to do some shows and play for actual humans. In the mean time I geek out over good chop music and write and record with a fusion trio.

 

I will always seek higher and dont care at all if nobody else wants to hear it!

 

You have to follow YOUR path regardless of where it goes. If somebody follows great - if not do you REALLY care?

 

I for one dont.

[1001gear]

I like my share of complex music. The problem I have there, is complex music better be F*ng brrr illiant or the stupidity shows. Sometimes, VH1 is plenty good enough.

[Drew5887]

 

Hey Drew, I 100% relate to your story and think definitely yes you lose some perspective as you improve. For me the issue is - I think I have done a good job with staying in touch with my core love (I still regularly listen to rock old and new and seem to still get excited as a listener) the problem is other players of an equal playing skill level most of them have "moved on" to jazz or a higher "more mature" style of music. So for me to find other good players who just enjoy slamming it out is tough. This is probably the reason guys like Zappa ended up going the route he did. You need to play the accessible stuff if you want to make any real big money and use that to fund your true love or goals. I kind of do this - clearly not to that level but i throw together a gig band from time to time to do some shows and play for actual humans. In the mean time I geek out over good chop music and write and record with a fusion trio. I will always seek higher and dont care at all if nobody else wants to hear it! You have to follow YOUR path regardless of where it goes. If somebody follows great - if not do you REALLY care? I for one dont.

 

 

Good post. I suppose that the important thing is that you like the music that you are playing and realize that other people may not like it, but screw them anyway because you are doing this for yourself essentially.

[stratitude]

If you are losing touch, maybe you're not really getting better at all, wouldn't you say?

[Drew5887]

 

If you are losing touch, maybe you're not really getting better at all, wouldn't you say?

 

 

I guess that is what I am wondering. I am getting more technically advanced, and more able to play with complexity and skill, but is this valuable if it is only does not enhance my ability to make enjoyable music?

[pop tarts]

no, i just understand more why i like what i like and why i dislike what i dislike.

[chittypantz]

Is it possible that your technique is outpacing your ear? Maybe try simplifying your playing every now and then and just making beautiful music. That doesn't mean you have to stop practicing technical things, but try to play with restraint and don't feel like you need to use your full bag of technical tricks without regard to whether it serves the music or not.

 

That would be my advice, take it or leave it. . . . .

[jeremy_green]

Is it possible that your technique is outpacing your ear? Maybe try simplifying your playing every now and then and just making beautiful music. That doesn't mean you have to stop practicing technical things, but try to play with restraint and don't feel like you need to use your full bag of technical tricks without regard to whether it serves the music or not. That would be my advice, take it or leave it. . . . .

 

Please not meaning any offense with this but I dont think that is really what he is saying. More with regards to musicians missing the point sometimes. Because we (players) love complex music and strive to do it we leave behind MANY listeners. Most of us started playing to play for the masses. Yet as we get better we say basically "F them" they dont know anyway (which I agree with but I am long blinded as well : )

 

I think the bigger concept is - we are who we are. Our voice becomes what they become and it is shaped by our tastes. If you were truly meant to play pop music then you would be doing so. If you were meant to be a jazz player then so be it. I believe if you are true to yourself and do what you love the rest will take care of itself. Be a like the pied piper and play your music. If the rats follow thats cool ... if not eat all the cheese yourself.

 

I dont believe can't fake it, people dont know much about music ... but they can almost always tell when you dont put your heart into it. I have heard stunningly talented musicians playing pop music they obviously dislike - and their disinterest comes through despite playing all the correct notes. You have to have a general basic appreciation for what you play to pull it off with any authenticity.

 

I think the top session guys have a general true love of all music - that is why they are great and so successful with multiple genres.

 

Its gotta be real on some level ... so its kind of out of my hands in many regards.

 

... Not sure what this means with regards to this discussion ... hopefully something useful

[tb_308]

I agree, the better I get (which is a slow process), the less appreciative I am of certain groups... We have a "professional" praise band come to our church once a year, and this last visit they made really disappointed me.. I just kept thinking, "I could play that.. I could play that part better..."

 

I also find that I enjoy music a lot more when I don't try to think of how it's being played... there are a few songs that I refuse to learn because as soon as I learn them, it ruins it for me... I mean, it's not that they are difficult (a few minutes on the piano and I could figure them out..) it's just a mental thing I guess..

 

it's probably just me... :

[chittypantz]

 

Please not meaning any offense with this but I dont think that is really what he is saying.

 

 

That doesn't surprise me -- I think I'm missing the OP's point.

 

FWIW, I've known some very good session guitarists who strongly dislike certain styles that the play, yet still get hired to play them. One in particular that I know hated country yet constantly got calls to play for country acts, mostly due to word of mouth. One can debate the "earnestness" of the musicians who were hiring him, I suppose, but by all indications he does a good job. The fact that country music seems to be a lot of the market for session guitarists in his area right now probably plays a factor too, although he's preferred to many local players who have a real love for country guitar.

 

My point (which it sounds like may have been off the OP's point) was that every now and then it's good to step back from the technical and intellectual study and just concentrate on playing what sounds good.

 

It sounds like you're saying the OP's point was that what sounds good to him isn't what sounds good to most of the listening audience, and vice versa (as it seems may be the case). You're right, there's not a whole lot that can be done about that. I think there are lots of guitarists out there who are capable of doing a good job playing things they don't necessarily like, but I do agree that it will likely never be as good as something the guitarist really puts his heart into. I definitely agree with you that we pretty much "are who we are" as far as our tastes & voice on the instrument and likely can't force ourselves to change.

[jeremy_green]

 

That doesn't surprise me -- I think I'm missing the OP's point. FWIW, I've known some very good session guitarists who strongly dislike certain styles that the play, yet still get hired to play them. One in particular that I know hated country yet constantly got calls to play for country acts, mostly due to word of mouth. One can debate the "earnestness" of the musicians who were hiring him, I suppose, but by all indications he does a good job. The fact that country music seems to be a lot of the market for session guitarists in his area right now probably plays a factor too, although he's preferred to many local players who have a real love for country guitar. My point (which it sounds like may have been off the OP's point) was that every now and then it's good to step back from the technical and intellectual study and just concentrate on playing what sounds good. It sounds like you're saying the OP's point was that what sounds good to him isn't what sounds good to most of the listening audience, and vice versa (as it seems may be the case). You're right, there's not a whole lot that can be done about that. I think there are lots of guitarists out there who are capable of doing a good job playing things they don't necessarily like, but I do agree that it will likely never be as good as something the guitarist really puts his heart into. I definitely agree with you that we pretty much "are who we are" as far as our tastes & voice on the instrument and likely can't force ourselves to change.

 

 

 

All great points, it is good to hear your experiences. Thank you for that. I love hearing other peoples perspectives.

 

Some of the session guys (or just other decent level players) I know have an automatic response to degrade the music they sit in on. They know it is simple music and they know i know it is simple music so they rip on it with me.

 

But I always wonder - at some point these guys must have had an interest in that style. Enough to learn it well enough to play deeper than the cliches. Now I am not saying your friend fits this description. Yes, some guys are just SO good that their lowest level is higher than many peoples highest level. But as you say an equal level player with a deep love for the style in most cases will do better with it.

 

There is kind of an "elite musicians club" out there that exists as much as an attitude as anything else.

 

Hard music to perform = good,

Simple popular music = bad and to be laughed at.

 

I suffer from some of these prejudices ... that is how I interpret "losing the point as you get better" topic

 

I think it is important for any musician to try and see the merit to all types of music. I am working on this approach daily. The love of music is the love of music and I think you can tell when a player has that attitude.

 

The guitar is just so expressive ... that emotion has to come out. No?

[Buck Fuddy]

 

I also find that I enjoy music a lot more when I don't try to think of how it's being played...

 

 

I wish I could do this, but I just can't for some reason. I've been a musician for 27 years now, and I barely remember what it's like to hear music as a non-musician, not dissect every aspect of it, and not have a general sense of what's going on immediately.

 

So, I often find myself envious of non-musicians in this regard.

 

It's almost like being a magician and not being able to appreciate seeing magic tricks anymore because you know the "secrets".

[Drew5887]

For me, my fear of losing touch has actually really kept me from progressing in jazz and classical because I do not want to "go over to the dark side." I originally began playing jazz because I wanted to write more inventive punk rock and I still remember hearing Coltrane soloing and saying, "WTF, how can anyone like that?"

 

I have come a long way since then in my playing and musical tastes and while I have almost single-mindedly pursued proficiency in these genres, I have always seen myself as a musician who plays jazz and classical rather than a jazz or classical musician.

 

When I hear shred and talk to shredders I really tend to reinforce my fear of giving myself over to a more advanced genre. No disrespect to shredders, but that is a music that is so given over to advanced playing that almost nobody gets into it except for musicians who play it. People into shred have focused on speed to such an extent that they hear music differently and what appeals to them is speed.

 

A similar thing happens when I visit the gear forums above and hear people dissing great players because they have "sterile tone" or talking highly of mediocre players who have great tone. These people have focused on tone to such an extent that they hear music differently, and what appeals to them is the tone of the guitar rather than the harmonic/melodic/rhythmic elements of the music.

 

I personally see these people as "out of touch," and I do not want to get similarly sidetracked into valuing complexity.

 

On the other hand, as long as you are not trying to score a number one hit, the accessibility of the music that you enjoy hearing and and making is unimportant.

[swanusa]

I just feel that the melody drives a musical piece, technically great or not. If it's good, everybody likes it. Music is not math or physics so as a musician you should like a music piece if it has the feel regardless of how bad it is technically. If a music piece does not bring tears to your eyes or give you goose bumps or make you feel almost high then you are too much into theory and should just stop "studying" music for a while until you start enjoying like it's supposed to be enjoyed.

 

Celine Dion is a great performer and sings with a lot of heart. If you don't like her (and if you love other pop music) then may be you have other issues. If you don't like her for a good reason, it's fine. You need to find that out objectively though. I have come across musicians who do not like music that's most popular, may be because they are envious. It almost feels like they want to appear rebelious.

 

I enjoy all kind of music which sounds good. I have a very strong "technical" background having played classical Piano for years and other instruments including Guitar (started a couple of years ago) and listened to all kind of music, almost. (I don't mean to sound proud at all). I still don't try to technically analyse anything unless I have to. Why ruin the fun?

[GodBlessTexas]

To me, music must be musical and invoke an emotional response. Classical can give this to me in spades, even if I also like straight ahead 4/4 120bpm rock. The problem where I think people get alienated is when that emotional response isn't the point of the playing. I admit I'm not a big fan of shredders who play strictly for the sake of playing everything fast. Rusty Cooley is a guy who comes to mind that epitomizes that type of playing. But guys like Petrucci or Satriani who can play circles around most players still find themselves able to express themselves adequately in a simple blues box scale.

 

The best way to stay in touch is to be mindful of not wanting to get out of touch. Remember why you love music in the first place. Go out and see bands play live, because for me, nothing beats that visceral feeling you get from a good rock show, or just chilling to a good downbeat jazz or lounge act over drinks. Don't let music devolve into a pissing contest of how you can do better. Learn how to meld the cerebral with the spiritual. And ultimately, make music that makes you happy.

[Knottyhed]

 

It's like working really hard on a sculpture that will only be appreciated by other artists, and mildly disliked by non-artists. Why do it?

 

 

 

Plenty of revered artists have continued following their own path despite the public not getting it until long after they're dead. Why'd they bother? You've either got a vision or you don't and if you're truly passionate about what you do you don't give a crap if anyone else likes it is my guess.

[gennation]

I spent over 15 years of my life playing music that "other people like" and the other 15+ years playing music that "I like". And the last year or two doing both.

 

Regardless of which one I was doing doing I ALWAYS tried to be my best by learning to hear as well as listen. I would "hear" what made these appealing to others, but I would listen to what I thought could happen in the music.

 

Because of this I've been in volved with pretty successful cover bands as well as original bands.

 

Plus, "adaptation" is a huge part of life let alone music. So, you play what fits and if you hear some other place to take, don't be afraid because the listener will be with all the way up to that point, that you take them somewhere else, or a little further...but regardless of how pleasing it is to them, they WILL CONNECT with the where you had them at certain points in the music...

 

Take something like playing Black Magic Woman or some basic "jam on" tune, after you've quoted the lines that suck people into the song, the groove, the whole vibe, you can "attempt" to take them anywhere. As long they have those first lines to connect to, they'll trust you from that point on.

 

Music can be manipulative and pleasing at the same time. That's a good part of the link between getting better and still being enjoyable.

[Drew5887]

I just went and saw a great great jazz performance. I didn't care for some of the songs but some of them were just great. I guess that the thing is that regardless of how complex a music is, it can really appeal to you and non-musicians on a very basic level as well.