What Would Coltrane Play.....

[gennation]

Don't take any of this stuff offensively Jas, please. Just try some of the things I'm suggesting, there's all kind of people playing with this freedom.

 

If you're going to count chromatic passing tones, I'll bet one can find examples of any note "working" over any chord - major, minor, or dominant.

 

True, if we get back to Coltrane you'll see it in play over every chord type. Take someone like Tal Farlow who's is known for playing a maj7 arp or even a straight Major scale over a m7b5 chord from the same Root of all things! And...he does it regularly, it's part of his "bag" if you will...hint, he also does this with straight Minor chords too. Tal also just slops tritone clusters over ANYTHING, maj, min, or dom.

 

A signature Stan Getz sound is to play a II (Major II) arp over a Imaj7. Directly superimposed, great sound, and he does it EVERYWHERE, almost every tune, it's part of his "bag". What this does is gives the Imaj7 chord a Lydian flavor...but the II is NOT connected to the Imaj7, it JUST simply sounds good...and it sounds like Getz!

 

All these sounds are out there, great players are FINDING them while others are stuck saying "i can and can't play these notes here".

 

Realizing every note is in play at all times is what all great players find as they break out of common theory and start playing music.

 

I'm going to let YOU find these examples on your own this time, cause once again, I know I'm right...I've listened and learned...not read.

 

And if all notes work, why bother learning anything. Just play random chromatic bull{censored} over everything.

 

Bull{censored} in the wrong hand, yes. In a masters hand, some of the greatest music given to us.

 

No where in ANY chromatic talk did I ever suggest just playing straight up and down chromatic lines, that's not where the music lives...but it does live IN all those notes. Start listening.

 

Just playing up and down linear chromatic line from Root to Root would be very amatuerish (except in some cases maybe). I would NEVER suggest than when teaching students how to play chromatically.

 

Those type of statements about "freedom" don't really help someone like the original poster, do they?

 

Yes, it helps 100% in a thread asking "what would Coltrane play". You can study his structures and ideas all you want but when he plays them he plays them with freedom. 100% dead on answer for this thread. That what makes all the greats great is the freedom they play with. Mclaughlin, Clarke, Corea, Metheny, Burton, etc...ALL picked up on it from those great who played unrestricted.

 

If you say all these notes I've been mentioning can't be played, then you are restricting yourself and in turn your playing.

 

Sure, on dominant chords one has more options to be selective than major or minor chords , and as one masters each of these options, more freedom to choose which option is appropriate for a given situation is the result.

 

(in bold)...This is bull kids, you have every note in play over minor or major chords just as much as you do dominant chords.

 

The second part of that statement is EXACTLY what I've been talking about, so what's your beef?

 

 

Since you deem passing notes as valid as notes with sustain in terms of functionality, let me ask you this: Would you hear a 7b9 chord as the I (or IV or V) chord in a rock/blues SRV style setting? (Since he is obviously playing the b9 over it?) Why or why not?

 

I wouldn't but you would, reason being...I'm talking intervals, interval that are used in these guys playing...YOU'RE summing up every note played as a full chord "name". It's a b9 over over a G7 chord...I wouldn't write it on a chart as G7b9.

 

 

Would you hear 7b9 chords in a swing Django-style setting? Why or why not?

 

Definitely depends on what tune but...if we are talking chords, not interval in a lick or phrase...

 

From D's point of view he would've probably thought of them as dim7's and not JUST and altered chord. Listen to all his beautiful chromatic lines over a number of his tunes, regardless of the chord or chord type he's playing...he HEARS those chromatic lines.

 

Now if he's playing something over a IIm-V-I you'd hear it as a 7alt, but if it's over a IIm-V-Im you'd hear it as diminished...ALL theoretically speaking because this is the difference of those 7's in the two different progressions...alt in a Major and 7b9/dim7 in a Minor...but in reality I've heard Django swap them around MANY times as well as other players.

[Jasco]

I'm not taking offense, Mike. Hope you're not either, buddy.

I find it funny how you repeatedly miss the big picture by looking at the details. And how you talk down to me while you pontificate about your superior experience vs. most of the members of this board.

My point that you derailed by nitpicking over whether or not SRV slurs to a b9 was that in different stylistic environments, dominant chords get different treatments as far as note choices for soloing. That is the big picture that you missed, or chose to derail with an irrelevant detail.

Yes, it helps 100% in a thread asking "what would Coltrane play". You can study his structures and ideas all you want but when he plays them he plays them with freedom. 100% dead on answer for this thread. That what makes all the greats great is the freedom they play with. Mclaughlin, Clarke, Corea, Metheny, Burton, etc...ALL picked up on it from those great who played unrestricted.

You are right that the masters play with freedom, but your missing the point that they didn't start off that way. This is a student seeking paths to freedom, not someone who has already mastered this stuff. (By the nature of the question from the original poster, I'd assume he's not a master on Coltrane's level yet.) Hence, giving some more concrete concepts might actually help him get to a point where he can play freely.

Just to say "play every note freely" doesn't help a student at all, in my opinion.

If you say all these notes I've been mentioning can't be played, then you are restricting yourself and in turn your playing.

Again you are misunderstanding me, or chosing to put words in my mouth. I never said any notes can't be played. I said that different styles will treat note usage differently, as far as what notes are functional 'important' notes. Assuming you want to 'fit in' stylistcally, you won't use the same note choices in the same ways across all stylistic boundries.

This is bull kids, you have every note in play over minor or major chords just as much as you do dominant chords.

Once again you are either misunderstanding me, or purposely twisting my words. You aparrently missed the phrase "to be selective". I didn't say you couldn't play certain notes over any chord. Where did you get that from?

I said that dominant chords have more options to be selective available to them that are used in general practice than major or minor chords. Maybe I should have said "more scale options."

YOU'RE summing up every note played as a full chord "name". It's a b9 over over a G7 chord...I wouldn't write it on a chart as G7b9.

No, I'm not summing anything up as a full chord name. In fact, I'm doing just the opposite. I'm giving so little value to the quickly slurred b9 that I don't even consider it a functional note at all. It's just a rhythmic embellishment and not even worth theoretical consideration when trying to find important stylistic concepts. Analyzing some quick slurred chromatic notes, is in my opinion, a counter productive form of over-thinking. If one is a beginning, then one needs more concrete selective ideas to try out. As one approaches mastery, one's playing is free enough that some little slurred chromatic note choice don't matter at that point either.

Again you're missing the point, or choosing to misconstrue it. The point is, that in a blues/rock environment, you won't find 7b9 chords. In a swing environment you will. When analyzing what the important notes are to phrase to, one might do it differently in these two different styles.

Let me ask you another question. And this can be answered with a simple yes or no... no need to get all complicated and try to twist the subject, nitpick details, or put words in my mouth.

Do you think that in any given melodic phrase, some notes are more important than others by virtue of their rhythmic placement or duration?




Good grief. :lol::lol:

[sgt mukuzi]

Thanks Gen thats FANTASTIC! stuff, i feel more relaxed about looking at intervals. in the past i have tried to justify every note as a chord tone, even when analising Schoenberg.
one point i could raise would be: over C7 when B is played it could be a M7 but over F#7 the B would be 4, i have always looked at this tritone (B and F) as the "avoid" tritone over a dominant chord and its sub. for some reason a dominant chord (to me) and its tritone sub are never apart

[gennation]

Jas, I was just clarifying that SRV uses that lick in almost every tune, over the I7. IOW, forget about what happens over the V7...he plays it over the I7. And, he'll play the same lick moved to the I7 the IV7 and the V7...playing it off the 5th of each of those chords.

 

As for the my freedom comment...I figure if someone is asking for "what would Coltrane play?" I'll give him the best answer and I believe I did. If he needs more detail, I'll give him more detail. He didn't specify whether he was a novice or not, but my answer was 100% dead on.

 

So, has anyone tried the Mixo->Dom Lyd->H-W-Mixo lines??? Or, tried splitting the common scales up into smaller scales to create a different set of notes in each octave? These are perfect suggestions for this thread, try them.

 

Also, pick up on the Farlow and Getz ideas. A m7b5 chord sits at the M3 of the dom7 chord...so for A7 you can play C#m7b5 (turns out to be a rootless G9 chord)...try playing a C#maj7 arp or even a C# Major scale over the A7.

 

Also, those A7, C7, Eb7, and F#7 interplays are huge over a static A7 chord.

[mosiddiqi]

Genn and Jasco, regardless of your discussion, there is more good stuff to learn in this thread than I've seen in some entire books/dvd's. Thank you very much!. Carry on.

[TheGareth]

Genn and Jasco, regardless of your discussion, there is more good stuff to learn in this thread than I've seen in some entire books/dvd's. Thank you very much!. Carry on.

Yeah there is loads of great stuff in this thread.

[gennation]

You gave great answers, Gennation, as did everyone else. Thank you. As far as me being a novice well I'd say that this is pretty accurate. I understand basic music theory, modes, scales and I understand what you mean when you're talking about 5ths, 3rds, 9ths etc. Yeah there is loads of great stuff in this thread.

 

 

TheGareth, if you haven't worked through that Advanced Pentatonic Tutorial definitely spend some time with it. MAKE SURE you read the Introduction, then follow through over 50 lessons on the concept. It's take you through Blues, Rock, Jazz, Fusion, Country, and more all using this one concept. And, it's ALL based on Dominant based music and chords.

 

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm

 

It's a full comprehensive lesson including audio, tab, diagrams, etc...and lots of explanations.

 

This has helped a lot of players see outside of the box without using anything more than a couple of scales you probably already know, The Blues scale and the Major Pentatonic scale. I can show you everything I've talked about by playing those two scales together from the same Root.

 

Definitely work through Jas's info too, even though we slipped off the topic for a bit he's always got good solid info, as do quite a few people here.

[TheGareth]

Jas - in your examples are you purposly trying to hit chord tones on the downbeats or do you not worry about this too much?

[frdagaa]

I suspect he would also imply some Coltrane Changes through his line, especially if his accompanists gave him a lot of space.

Sorry, I can't really explain the Coltrane changes well...don't have a good handle on them...but basically it's a major 3rd cycle with ii-V's thrown in. So A7 - C#7 - F7 - back to A7. Check out Giant Steps.

[mosiddiqi]

Ok, I've been trying the stuff in this thread out for a while and I've come up with a "Scale shape" that I think uses a mixture of Mixo/Lydian Dom/Half-whole diminished, if I've understood correctly that is! It's all over an A7 and the first set of notes is just an A7 arp like so:

|------------|
|------------|
|------------|
|-------5----|
|---4-7------|
|-5----------|

The second shape uses notes from the Lydian Dominant:

|--------------|
|-------5-8----|
|---6-8--------|
|-7------------|
|--------------|
|--------------|

And finally, the first four notes from the A H/W dim, with a G at the end to emphasise the b7th, just for reference:

|-5-6-8-9------|
|---------8----|
|--------------|
|--------------|
|--------------|
|--------------|

So, the whole "shape" is:

|-------------------5-6-8-9----|
|---------------5-8------------|
|-----------6-8----------------|
|-------5-7--------------------|
|---4-7------------------------|
|-5----------------------------|

Now, I don't know how useful this might be, but I've had a lot of fun playing just that shape over an A7 vamp..different notes in different octaves as well.

[Jasco]

Jas - in your examples are you purposly trying to hit chord tones on the downbeats or do you not worry about this too much?

 

 

So with this, we're getting into the realm of phrasing - the fun stuff. Although you asked a straightforward question, I don't think a concise yes or no type answer would really do it justice.

 

I'll PM you some more information on this so I can follow through with an idea without someone pulling it off-topic to argue over petty details.

[TheGareth]

So with this, we're getting into the realm of phrasing - the fun stuff. Although you asked a straightforward question, I don't think a concise yes or no type answer would really do it justice. I'll PM you some more information on this so I can follow through with an idea without someone pulling it off-topic to argue over petty details.

 

 

Thanks, Jas. I like this thread and where it's going - lots of great information here.

[gennation]

Ok, I've been trying the stuff in this thread out for a while and I've come up with a "Scale shape" that I think uses a mixture of Mixo/Lydian Dom/Half-whole diminished, if I've understood correctly that is! It's all over an A7 and the first set of notes is just an A7 arp like so: |------------| |------------| |------------| |-------5----| |---4-7------| |-5----------| The second shape uses notes from the Lydian Dominant: |--------------| |-------5-8----| |---6-8--------| |-7------------| |--------------| |--------------| And finally, the first four notes from the A H/W dim, with a G at the end to emphasise the b7th, just for reference: |-5-6-8-9------| |---------8----| |--------------| |--------------| |--------------| |--------------| So, the whole "shape" is: |-------------------5-6-8-9----| |---------------5-8------------| |-----------6-8----------------| |-------5-7--------------------| |---4-7------------------------| |-5----------------------------| Now, I don't know how useful this might be, but I've had a lot of fun playing just that shape over an A7 vamp..different notes in different octaves as well.

 

 

That's pretty much the idea. Again, any note will work but if you grouped "any note" into scales you can "think" of where each note would come from and then tie ideas in and out of scales. Meaning there's a ton of Dominant based scales super-imposed over each other to create almost a Chromatic scale, once you have that you can ungroup them in way you want into chunks that combine scales together.

 

I hadn't really thought about playing the Mixo->Lyd Dom->H-W->Mixo linearly as one scale like you presented but more like this (don't have my guitar but think them as 8th notes, I'm pulling this out from my head right now):

 

 

 

I broke the third measure up a bit because it was looking to linear and scaley.

 

You might want to run that as 1/16th notes so you're not outside too for two whole measures. Not that that's bad, but you'd want to change your phrase up and probably not be nearly as linear if you are staying outside for two whole measures.

 

Also, a VERY important thing to remember (at first) is to NOT play the 5th of A7 when you vamp/comp the static chord. At first any "altered 5" is going to sound strange to you with a "natural 5" in the chord. Also, try not to get too many 4 and 6 note chords happening during your vamp. Keeping your chord small will keep them out of the way of the altered tones and upper extensions. Plus, YOU are going to learn to rub up against the chord with new sounds, so don't get too much rubbing going inside the chord itself. Think "lean chords" for A7, ala R M3 b7, or just M3 and b7 as I'm sure has been mentioned.

 

As time goes on start working the two sounds together (natural 5 and altered 5's) but to start, try using one of these two three-note forms the vamp with...

 

E----

B----

G----

D--5--

A--4--

E--5--

 

E----

B--8--

G--6--

D--7--

A--0--

E----

 

Hey, once you get that lick down, try moving it in min3rd increments, like play C mixo->C Lyd Dom->C H-W->C Mixo. Then do it from Eb abd F# too, THEN try something like...

 

A Mixo->C Lyd Dom->Eb H-W->F# Mixo (ok, you might want to use A Mixo here just to bring it back home).

[DanSlime]

I suspect he would also imply some Coltrane Changes through his line, especially if his accompanists gave him a lot of space. Sorry, I can't really explain the Coltrane changes well...don't have a good handle on them...but basically it's a major 3rd cycle with ii-V's thrown in. So A7 - C#7 - F7 - back to A7. Check out Giant Steps.

 

 

one thing about coltrane changes & giant steps... in Giant Steps the acutal progression is coltrane changes...meaning the roots of the harmony follow the changes.

 

However...some people (including coltrane) will impose those changes over a static vamp...or even over a repeating ii V I sequence that isn't in the same key as the superimposed changes. Its a slightly different concept - imposing a progression over a vamp vs. playing over the actual changes from the song Giant Steps.

 

 

So one of the theories behind this is that the listener will follow along to the harmony being superimposed because it makes sense on its own...even though some of the notes being played are 'outside' the actual vamp that the rhythm section is playing.

 

Its kind of an advanced concept...me personally I'm still having fun with the plain ol' major scale of the key over all the chords.

[mosiddiqi]

Hey, once you get that lick down, try moving it in min3rd increments, like play C mixo->C Lyd Dom->C H-W->C Mixo. Then do it from Eb abd F# too, THEN try something like... A Mixo->C Lyd Dom->Eb H-W->F# Mixo (ok, you might want to use A Mixo here just to bring it back home).

Cool, right, and the minor third increments, A to C to Eb to F#...plays on the diminished idea right?..the way diminished chords/arps repeat every time you move them up a minor 3rd?

This is good stuff , taking me right out of my regular "rock" comfort zone!

[gennation]

Cool, right, and the minor third increments, A to C to Eb to F#...plays on the diminished idea right?..the way diminished chords/arps repeat every time you move them up a minor 3rd? This is good stuff , taking me right out of my regular "rock" comfort zone!

 

Yes. It's a by product of the A H-W.

 

I know I've also posted this before too: Inside the H-W scale there are 4 dim7 chord, 4 dom7 chords, 4 m7b5 chords, as well as 4 Major triads, and 4 Minor triads.

 

Go hunting and you'll be able to create possible chord progressions INSIDE that static A7 vamp. I discuss this idea here:

 

http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/diminished-concepts-in-common-music-t26.html?sid=5e8c85b6351972029d1e069382a93674

 

This is one of the reasons you can use just about any note over a Dom7 chord. You find chords, scales, and more when you look at ALL the possibilities over the dom7 chord.

[TheGareth]

However...some people (including coltrane) will impose those changes over a static vamp...or even over a repeating ii V I sequence that isn't in the same key as the superimposed changes. Its a slightly different concept - imposing a progression over a vamp vs. playing over the actual changes from the song Giant Steps. So one of the theories behind this is that the listener will follow along to the harmony being superimposed because it makes sense on its own...even though some of the notes being played are 'outside' the actual vamp that the rhythm section is playing.

This is interesting. So say that Coltrane was playing over a static Cminor vamp would he create the tension by implying other chords in the forms of arpeggios and scales? I guess you could treat the Cm as the 6 chord of Eb major or the 2 of Bb major, right?!?

[DanSlime]

This is interesting. So say that Coltrane was playing over a static Cminor vamp would he create the tension by implying other chords in the forms of arpeggios and scales?

 

 

Yea...thats basically what Poparad was saying at the beginning of this thread.

 

 

 

But taking it a step further is implying progressions over a static chord.

 

 

I think one thing to note is the state of mind of the improvisor vs the listener...or the state of mind of anyone listening or playing will be slightly different from one another. One big factor is how good your ears are. So to someone like coltrane, he probably doesn't think of it as superimposing something...he's likely actually hearing those tones as being part of the chord he's playing on.

 

I say "probably" because who knows what anyone else is thinking? I can only speak for myself in that I know that as my ears have gotten better, that things I thought sounded "outside" sound different than they use to. It still has a tension to it...but it doesn't sound "outside" in the same way as it use to.

 

 

...and Coltranes playing on Giant Steps is one of those things that takes a long time to get use to. Its definitely an aquired taste.

[stomias]

[DanSlime]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kotK9FNEYU

 

 

I've seen that one...pretty cool. Heres another one thats been floating around for a while:

http://www.heplaysjazz.btinternet.co.uk/giants.html

[stomias]

I've seen that one...pretty cool. Heres another one thats been floating around for a while: http://www.heplaysjazz.btinternet.co.uk/giants.html

 

 

nice!

[Jawbreakerr]

This is interesting. So say that Coltrane was playing over a static Cminor vamp would he create the tension by implying other chords in the forms of arpeggios and scales? I guess you could treat the Cm as the 6 chord of Eb major or the 2 of Bb major, right?!?

the coltrane changes thing is just an example of superimposing chords over other chords. and what holds it all together is the confidence and strength of your melodic line. you can play a line from the most outer key, but as long as the line has a strong melodic definition, it will work over any chord. sure it will be out, but Melody ALWAYS trumps harmony.

[stomias]

This is interesting. So say that Coltrane was playing over a static Cminor vamp would he create the tension by implying other chords in the forms of arpeggios and scales? I guess you could treat the Cm as the 6 chord of Eb major or the 2 of Bb major, right?!?

And the iii chord of Ab. Playing the altered V chord (G) that adds the tesion to resolve to the cmin. And remember that the F7 and its alterations.

[TheGareth]

I've seen that one...pretty cool. Heres another one thats been floating around for a while: http://www.heplaysjazz.btinternet.co.uk/giants.html

 

 

Now this is very interseting. Thanks for the link. So much information to get my tiny brain around!!

[TheGareth]

Speaking of Coltrane, I think that this is really, really beautiful:

 

[YOUTUBE]dCb2f7FesaY[/YOUTUBE]

 

 

His phrasing and his note choices are sublime. I love how he'd blow a note, hold it, then gently add some vibrato.