Members TheGareth Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 If he was improvising over a static A7 chord? I'm not that familiar with his music, nor have I read up much on it, to know what concepts he used so as you'd know it was him playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 Coltrane was a genius. Why don't you get some of his music and listen to it? Your local library may have some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 Coltrane was a genius. Why don't you get some of his music and listen to it?Your local library may have some. I have heard some of his music, the early stuff I like however I find his later work very, very hard to listen to. I have an Impulse Records John Coltrane best of and an album of his called Lush Life. I'm still interested to know about his playing concepts though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 I read a biography about him a couple years ago. He was a pretty complex guy. There's a few books out there and I'm not sure which one I read. Interesting though. He would probably take the A7 chord and play off extensions of it and then substitutions. On and on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well, for one thing, after playing around on A7 for a bit, he'd most likely start playing over some different chords superimposed on the A7, for some tension and variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 Well, for one thing, after playing around on A7 for a bit, he'd most likely start playing over some different chords superimposed on the A7, for some tension and variety. What chords would he play? I'm guessing that E7 would be one of them, but how does he choose other chords? Surely there's some thought behind it rather than his just choosing them at random......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 Maybe something like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 Maybe something like this? Yeah that sounds very Coltrane like and out. However, what is his thought process behind those lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 Yeah that sounds very Coltrane like and out. However, what is his thought process behind those lines?No thought process at all. Just feel it, bro. Seriously, it's just an A dominant scale (mixolydian) with half-step-below 'leading tones'.You've played a scale in thirds, right? 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, ect...Now do a four note sequence: 1 - halfstep down - 1 - 32 - halfstep down - 2 - 43 - halfstep down - 3 - 5, ect...It's like the opening lick from his solo on the song Mr PC (right after the head), except that was from a C minor scale. I just converted the concept to an A7 scale here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 No thought process at all. Just feel it, bro. Seriously, it's just an A dominant scale (mixolydian) with half-step-below 'leading tones'. You've played a scale in thirds, right? 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, ect... Now do a four note sequence: 1 - halfstep down - 1 - 3 2 - halfstep down - 2 - 4 3 - halfstep down - 3 - 5, ect... It's like the opening lick from his solo on the song Mr PC (right after the head), except that was from a C minor scale. I just converted the concept to an A7 scale here. So it would be, in the key of A - A, G#, A, C#, B, Bb, B, D etc? Got anymore stuff like this you can share with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 So it would be, in the key of A - A, G#, A, C#, B, Bb, B, D etc? Got anymore stuff like this you can share with me? Yes, and yes. Another good one is playing an arpeggio with surrounding tones - half step below and scale step above. The scale step above could be a whole or half step depending on the scale you're implying. For example, an A major arpeggio in a straight A major environment would have a whole step above the root, half step above the third, and whole step above the fifth. However, an A major arpeggio in an A lydian environment would have whole steps above each chord tone. I originally got this idea from learning Django solos, so I think of it as the Django chord tone surrounding note concept. But it was done well before him. The opening melody from Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca employs this device. Note, that on guitar, this will lead you to fingerings wherein your middle finger is the one always playing the arpeggio tone. (Index always gets the half-step below, and ring or pinky gets half or whole above.) Here's an attached example for an A arpeggio. The four note sequence is scale step above, chord tone, half step below, chord tone: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 8, 2009 Members Share Posted February 8, 2009 To expand upon the above concept, here's a quiz to do on paper first, then on your fretboard: For each chord type and scale type, figure out whether the scale tone above each chord tone is a whole or half step:Major chord, major scale: Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? 3rd - ? 5th - ? Major chord, lydian scale: Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? 3rd - ? 5th - ? Major chord, dominant scale Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? 3rd - ? 5th - ? Major chord, altered dominant scale Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? 3rd - ? 5th - ? Minor chord, minor scale Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? b3rd - ? 5th - ? Minor chord, dorian scale Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? b3rd - ? 5th - ? Minor chord, phrygian scale Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step) Root - ? b3rd - ? 5th - ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 9, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 Jasco - thanks for all of these playing tips. This is exactly the stuff that I am looking for. The examples are also great too, if you have any more then please share!To expand upon the above concept, here's a quiz to do on paper first, then on your fretboard:For each chord type and scale type, figure out whether the scale tone above each chord tone is a whole or half step:Major chord, major scale:Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - whole step3rd - half step5th - whole stepMajor chord, lydian scale:Chord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - whole step3rd - whole step5th - whole stepMajor chord, dominant scaleChord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - whole step3rd - half step5th - whole stepMajor chord, altered dominant scaleChord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - half step3rd - half step5th - whole step^^^Not sure on this one at all.Minor chord, minor scaleChord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - Whole Stepb3rd - Whole Step5th - Half StepMinor chord, dorian scaleChord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - Whole stepb3rd - Whole step5th - Whole stepMinor chord, phrygian scaleChord tone - scale tone above (whole step or half step)Root - Half Stepb3rd - Whole step5th - Half StepHow'd I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 9, 2009 Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 How'd I do? Great. Over the altered dominant chord you might try: half step above the root (=b9) whole step above the 3rd (=b5) half step above the 5th. (=#5) You could also try using the b5 or #5 as your target chord tone, then find surrounding tones for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DanSlime Posted February 9, 2009 Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 Maybe something like this? Another way to analyze that is to look a the downbeats...in that first example from Jasco, the downbeats are: a a b b c# c# f# g translated to chord tones its: 1 1 9 9 3 3 13 b7 All good...its a rhythmic thing - the '&'s are providing the swing. Try displacing the first example by one 8th note (start the first note on the 1 instead of the '& of 4'). Now the target tones are on the upbeats...sounds different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 9, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 Speaking of Django, and getting slightly OT, most of his lines were based on arpeggios, correct? Do you think he knew much theory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted February 9, 2009 Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 Speaking of Django, and getting slightly OT, most of his lines were based on arpeggios, correct? Do you think he knew much theory? Django was illiterate. He could barely read and it was a struggle to write his name. But he new what sounded good. That's the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 9, 2009 Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 Do you think he knew much theory? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheGareth Posted February 9, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2009 NoWow. I never knew that. However he came up with some of those licks I'll never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted February 10, 2009 Members Share Posted February 10, 2009 Dominant chord = freedom He would play freely. There's hardly a bad note over a Dominant chord. Regardless of the chord Coltrane played a lot of lines starting on the 5th of the chord. So, Diatonically, if you use A Mixolydian over A7, focus on E Dorian. Yes, it's the same scale but you won't land on A very much, you end on E and B a lot. Just try it. But since it's Dominant you can list out almost an endless list of scale names to use, (just from the Root of A you could use A Mixolydian, A Lydian Dominant, A Blues, A Major Pentatonic, A Whole tone, A Diminished, etc...yes they will ALL work) but it really boils down to freedom, as in you can "use" any note if you find a use for it. Try playing freely over the A7 chord you'll find more reasons to not worry about a scale name over that chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 10, 2009 Members Share Posted February 10, 2009 Wow. I never knew that. However he came up with some of those licks I'll never know. I've read that he may have had perfect pitch, as there are accounts of him jumping into songs in the correct key that singers had started acappella. In any case, he had great listening skills.After transcribing and learning to play several Django solos, the best way I could briefly sum up his thought process would be to focus on chord tones and the notes that surround them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jonfinn Posted February 10, 2009 Members Share Posted February 10, 2009 I'd like to make a suggestion: Transcribe as many Coltrane solos that use A7 chords as you can find. You may find that you'll get a lot more out of that process than you will by asking us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted February 10, 2009 Members Share Posted February 10, 2009 I'd like to make a suggestion: Transcribe as many __________ solos that use ___________ as you can find. You may find that you'll get a lot more out of that process than you will by asking us. That's the best suggestion for 80%+ of the questions on this forum.Of course, that would be a lot of work.:lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mosiddiqi Posted February 10, 2009 Members Share Posted February 10, 2009 Some great ideas here...thanks all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jonPhillips Posted February 10, 2009 Members Share Posted February 10, 2009 This is one of the best threads we've had for a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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