What Would Coltrane Play.....

[Jasco]

...if you have any more then please share!

 

 

OK, Gareth, here are a few more "fake your way through jazz" ideas.

 

Before I get into them, there are a couple other things I'd like to say. First, all of these are addressing note choices, not rhythm or phrasing. In my opinion, rhythm and phrasing are even more important than note choice. And they are much more elusive to try to teach. (But I do have a few phrasing exercises I may eventually post.)

 

Second, as has been noted by Jon Finn, transcribing is really the best thing you can do, for this, or any style. In fact, all the ideas I'm sharing here weren't aquired from any lessons or books, but rather through me figuring out solos by ear, and then trying to apply some theory knowledge to what I heard happening so I could (hopefully) re-create some of these sounds outside of the specific environment I originally heard them in. You should do the same thing, and not just use these as gimmicks for immitation jazz. Transcribing also has helped me a lot with phrasing, by the way.

 

Lastly, be sure to learn tunes.

 

Oh, and one more thing, BE SURE TO LEARN TUNES.

 

OK, on to a few more note choice ideas.

 

 

 

1. Try playing triads (or seventh chords) starting from a higher note in the chord you're playing over than the root. This will lead you to phrase to higher chord tone extensions than you might normally.

 

Some examples:

 

Over an A major, start on the 3rd and think C#m triad (C# E G#). That gives you the 3,5,7 from A.

 

Or, start on the 5th use an E major triad (E, G#, B) = 5, 7, 9 from A

 

Or, from the 7th, use G#m (G#, B, D#) = 7,9,#11 from A.

 

In fact, you might want to make a chart of Major, Dominant, and Minor chords and figure out what type of triads and seventh chords to use from each chord tone of each chord type. There may be several possibilities depending on what kind of alterations you want to imply to each extension. When you get the chart done, post it here to see if you did everything correctly. (And also post it here so I can copy it, because I'm needing a chart like that myself, but I've been too lazy to actually write it up.)

 

Also remember to use the surrounding note concept from my previous post with these upper-extension substitutions.

 

 

 

 

2. Use chromatic tones to connect chord tones. Ascending or descending. It's easier to "see" the chromatic connecting notes if the two chord tones are on the same string, but it's also worth practicing connecting chord tones on adjacent strings with the chromatic notes between them.

 

Even though you would just be thinking chord tones, it can sound like you're using a scale.

 

I've posted an example using an A dominant arpeggio.

 

This is also a fun trick to try over changes. That is, connect a chord tone from one chord to a chord tone from the next chord in the tune via chromatic notes.

 

My time limit for today is about up.

[gennation]

It's a Dominant chord, what note doesn't fit?

[Jasco]

It's a Dominant chord, what note doesn't fit?

 

 

True, that any note could work over a dominant chord. However, a good starting place is to learn to target chord tones for important notes - beginnings, endings, sustained notes.

 

Also, being selective as to which "any" notes you use will flavor the dominant chord environment different ways, which will fit in with certain melodies or resolutions better (or worse).

 

For example, if I'm playing over dominant chords in a Django-style environment, I'd want to flavor them with a lot of b9's. On the other hand, if I were playing over dominant chords in a Stevie Ray Vaughan-style environment, I might not want to do that. (Assuming of course, I wanted to fit in stylistically.)

 

The chromatic chord-tone connecting idea works just as well with a minor or major chord.

[TheGareth]

Thanks again for all the great advice and extra thanks for Jasco for his great examples in tablature.

Regardless of the chord Coltrane played a lot of lines starting on the 5th of the chord. So, Diatonically, if you use A Mixolydian over A7, focus on E Dorian. Yes, it's the same scale but you won't land on A very much, you end on E and B a lot. Just try it.

This make me think of a Danny Gatton video in which he's talking about playing jazzy lines and his idea is to hit every note but the root of the chord.

[Virgman]

Regardless of the chord Coltrane played a lot of lines starting on the 5th of the chord.

 

 

Have you ever noticed that many jazz melodies start on the 5th?

[DanSlime]

Its ironic that transcribing has this reputation of being difficult. In some ways it is...but in other ways it is actually easier than any other form of music education.

[gennation]

Have you ever noticed that many jazz melodies start on the 5th?

 

 

True. The only time this really isn't true is over a maj7 type chord, the reason...the 5th is Dominant. But for a Dominant chord and a m7 chord, that 5th is a great note to start on. A lot of people, including Coltrane, sprung their solo's from it a lot.

 

This Root v/s 5th idea stems from Tetrachords, many improver broke common scales out into multiple tetrachord and a view within a view of the scale.

 

Also, they would create scales within a scale that had different notes per octave. Here's a great "2 part" scale to use over A7:

 

E-----------------------------------3--5--

B-----------------------------3--5---------

G----------------------4--6--------------

D---------------5--7--------------------

A--------5--7---------------------------

E--5--7-----------------------------------

 

Think of the three low strings as one scale and the top three strings as another scale...even though all the notes are from A Mixolydian. What you create are stable and unstable scales, or melodic scales within one larger scale.

 

Here's another for A Mixolydian...

 

E--------------------------------------7--9-

B--------------------------------7--8-------

G--------------------------7--9------------

D--------------------7--9-----------------

A---------7--9--10--------------------------

E---7--9-----------------------------------

 

Now, realizing these are over a Dominant chord, feel free to fill in the gaps and find comfortable ways to introduce chromatic notes inside these new scales. After about 10 minutes of messing with it you'll start to tap into some great stuff that will put "Coltrane" on the back burner for a while as you try to hone in where this is leading you.

 

Remember to play through them with authority and play freely!

 

These simple scales pretty much sound musical on their own as opposed to duplicating the notes of each octave like you do with text book scales.

 

Once you cop this idea and then move it to ALL the scales you could play over a Dominant chord you are going to have an endless bank of "places to play". All the scales meaning the endless array of scale, since every note works over a Dominant chord.

 

Beyond this, again it's a Dominant chord, play your lines combining A Mixo, A Lyd Dom, and A H-W ALL into ONE SCALE. Try it.PLay Mixo, then into Lyd Dom, then into H-W. THAT'S where "the sound" comes from, not sitting endlessly in A Mixolydian.

 

Over a I7 chord (A7) EVERYTHING will resolve back to A Mixolydian. So if you say on A Mixolydian you never have anything to resolve or release to, you are ONLY playing in a "released" or "resolved" sound. Wind you way through those other scales...it's a Dominant chord, you can't get too far out no matter way you play...then resolve it to A Mixolydian...so...

 

A Mixo->A Lyd Dom->A H-W->A Mixo.

 

Record yourself an A7 vamp and try it.

 

Wh00 h00, then realize that for every Dominant chord there are three other dominant chords! And you can move all these ideas to all of those chords too! This is another reason there is no bad note over a Dominant chord.

 

So, move all these ideas to A7, C7, Eb7, and F#7. Play the Mixo->Lyd Dom->H-W->Mixo idea for ALL of those Roots. I'm not kidding, try it.

 

BTW, SRV plays A LOT of b9s...just so happen...he plays a Blues scale off...wait for it...the 5th of his Dominant chord! Hendrix and Albert King did it all the time too. Just use the first four notes of an E Blues scale over A7 (E G A Bb B), you'll hear it, those guys did it in almost every tune.

 

Here's the classic lick those guys did:

 

A7

E---------5h6p5-------------

B---5--8---------8--5------

G---------------------

D--------------------

A-----------------------

E-------------------------

 

Or...

 

A7

E---------5--6s7-------------

B---5--8-------------

G---------------------

D--------------------

A-----------------------

E-------------------------

 

Nothing but playing Minor off the 5th of the Dominant chord...it's an old practice.

[Jasco]

BTW, SRV plays A LOT of b9s...just so happen...he plays a Blues scale off...wait for it...the 5th of his Dominant chord! Hendrix and Albert King did it all the time too. Just use the first four notes of an E Blues scale over A7 (E G A Bb B), you'll hear it, those guys did it in almost every tune. Here's the classic lick those guys did: A7 E---------5h6p5------------- B---5--8---------8--5------ G--------------------- D-------------------- A----------------------- E------------------------- Or... A7 E---------5--6s7------------- B---5--8------------- G--------------------- D-------------------- A----------------------- E------------------------- Nothing but playing Minor off the 5th of the Dominant chord...it's an old practice.

When SRV and other blues cats play licks like you posted it's almost always over the V chord. That is, in a blues in A, they'd play those type of things over E7. Hence the Bb note is functioning as a b5, not a b9.

Or perhaps I haven't listened to enough SRV, Hendrix, A.King, ect... Feel free to prove me wrong by posting examples of actual tunes if you'd like. :lol:

[gennation]

When they play it over the V7 chord they play it from the 5th of the V7 chord. It's that whole Dorian/Minor over Dominant with chromatics idea.

[Jasco]

When they play it over the V7 chord they play it from the 5th of the V7 chord. It's that whole Dorian/Minor over Dominant with chromatics idea.

No they don't.

You won't find examples of the Hendrix/Vaughan blues/rock style cats playing a B blues scale over an E7 chord that is the V chord in the key of A.

If you do, post some examples from actual tunes, and prove me wrong. :lol:

But you won't, because those type of cats don't do that.


*edit* By the way, that is a cool idea, it just doesn't generate SRV, Hendrix, Albert King type sounds. *edit*

[TheGareth]

Guys this is great stuff you're telling me here!

 

Speaking of playing outside and jazz and stuff I see that Robben Ford has a new DVD coming out where he speaks about his lead playing, including altered scales.

 

Are there any books out there that have stuff like this in it? It's hard to find good instuctional books - the only good one I have it Chord Tone Soloing.

[gennation]

No they don't. You won't find examples of the Hendrix/Vaughan blues/rock style cats playing a B blues scale over an E7 chord that is the V chord in the key of A. If you do, post some examples from actual tunes , and prove me wrong. :lol: But you won't, because those type of cats don't do that. *edit* By the way, that is a cool idea, it just doesn't generate SRV, Hendrix, Albert King type sounds. *edit*

 

You expect me to go back through the SRV I've learned and pull out a 1.5 second lick? Transcribe I've only learned one SRV album, Couldn't Stand The Weather, look there.

 

I'll see if I can find something but wouldn't be scouring every little lick. But if you take the time you will find it.

[DanSlime]

b9 over the I chord...maybe as a passing tone to the 9. Or yea, if its on the V then its functioning as a b5.

As far as the B blues scale in A ... its dorian sounds. You get the 9th and 13th in respect to A. In respect to E you get 9 and 11 I believe.


Hendrix used the 9th all the time. I guess it depends on what scales you want to superimpose on your analysis of someones playing.


As far as jazz...one way to look at it is in a ii V I ...just treating the V as a ii ... i.e. using the minor ii sound over the V. Same thing as "minor blues off the 5 of the V chord"

[stomias]

OK, Gareth, here are a few more "fake your way through jazz" ideas. 1. Try playing triads (or seventh chords) starting from a higher note in the chord you're playing over than the root. This will lead you to phrase to higher chord tone extensions than you might normally. Some examples: Over an A major, start on the 3rd and think C#m triad (C# E G#). That gives you the 3,5,7 from A. Or, start on the 5th use an E major triad (E, G#, B) = 5, 7, 9 from A Or, from the 7th, use G#m (G#, B, D#) = 7,9,#11 from A. In fact, you might want to make a chart of Major, Dominant, and Minor chords and figure out what type of triads and seventh chords to use from each chord tone of each chord type. There may be several possibilities depending on what kind of alterations you want to imply to each extension. When you get the chart done, post it here to see if you did everything correctly. (And also post it here so I can copy it, because I'm needing a chart like that myself, but I've been too lazy to actually write it up.) Also remember to use the surrounding note concept from my previous post with these upper-extension substitutions. 2. Use chromatic tones to connect chord tones. Ascending or descending. It's easier to "see" the chromatic connecting notes if the two chord tones are on the same string, but it's also worth practicing connecting chord tones on adjacent strings with the chromatic notes between them. Even though you would just be thinking chord tones, it can sound like you're using a scale. I've posted an example using an A dominant arpeggio. This is also a fun trick to try over changes. That is, connect a chord tone from one chord to a chord tone from the next chord in the tune via chromatic notes. My time limit for today is about up.

 

 

triadic approach is very useful and easy to apply

 

 

Eb triad over A7=A7b9b5

 

B triad over A7=A13b5

 

F# triad over A7=A13b9

[sgt mukuzi]

lydian cromatic concept says the five of one is the two of four, (the REAL 1)

if the four is one then five is two. thats the way i look at Coltrane, also the root, sharp five and three are an augmented triad, Coltrane used that alot also. plus his sequences. EX: 1, 2, 4, 5, of the first chord then the same sequence over the tritone sub and all of the modal voicings.
he could play so fast he could fit in just about every extension possible.

[gennation]

 

 

Couldn't Stand the Weather. Listen to the licks he plays over the third chord. He's tuned down a half but fretboard wise he plays Bm-A7-G7 on that G7 you will hear the old...

 

E--------3--4--5--4--3---

B--3--6-----------------6--3

 

type lick. That's not the lick but that is the first 5 notes of the D Blues scale played over G7. Now that you hear it you can place it in many other SRV, Albert, and Jimi tunes.

 

At the time each of those chords are played they are basically "I chords" at the time.

 

sgt mukuzi, yes the maj7 arp a whole step down from the Root of the Dom7 chord is a great little idea. So, for A7 play Gmaj7 arps.

 

When you say this "root, sharp five and three are an augmented triad" you may want to clarify "root" is that the Root of I, V, IV, II??? Just want to make sure we follow.

[sgt mukuzi]

It's a Dominant chord, what note doesn't fit?

 

 

 

i cant see how a Major seven would work over a dominant chord, once the major seven is hit the chord changes its function, its no longer dominant:cop:

[sgt mukuzi]

sgt mukuzi, yes the maj7 arp a whole step down from the Root of the Dom7 chord is a great little idea. So, for A7 play Gmaj7 arps. When you say this "root, sharp five and three are an augmented triad" you may want to clarify "root" is that the Root of I, V, IV, II??? Just want to make sure we follow.

 

 

it could be the root of any chord: just trying to put a context to the sharp five mentioned in another post, in a way when a sharp five is played the third is the root of the dominant chord in question.

[gennation]

 

i cant see how a Major seven would work over a dominant chord, once the major seven is hit the chord changes its function, its no longer dominant:cop:

 

 

Oh, try it. Use it to resolve the the Root. Think of it in jazz theory like..."change all the m7's to dom7's". So the M7 of a I7 is like a V7 chord moving into a I7 chord.

 

Play this:

 

||: Em7 | A7 | Em7 | A7 :||

 

Then play it like

 

||: E7 | A7 | E7 | A7 :||

 

Nothing more than back cycling two chords.

 

The M7 is a major player over a dom7 chord. True, you might not want to sit on it but it's a very important, and very usable note, over a dom7 chord. Once you hear it you'll link it to many dixie tunes as well as poppy jazz tune.

 

Play a straight up tempo'ed A7 vamp and end your lick, or resolve your lick with...

 

 

D------6--7--------

A---7--------------

 

Or think of a Casino Royale-ish slick 60's tunes, or even surf music ala Wipe Out...ALL Dominant based music...

 

A7

E------------------------

B----------------8----------

G----------------6----------

D------5--6--7--7-----

A---7-------------

E-----------------------

Think of Hendrix doing Fire or something like...

D7

E------------------

B---------------7---

G---------------5---

D---------------7---

A-----3--4--5--5---

E--5-----------------

 

There's M7's all over the place in Dominant based music. If I recall right, the end line in Bill Hailey's Rock Around the Clock is something like 5, 6, b7, M7, R.

 

Listen to some Duke Rollibard, he always favors that M7 over the b7 when resolving to a I7 chord...and he copped it from a lot of older players.

 

How about Stormy Monday...

 

A7

E----------------------

B--7--6--5------------------

G--6--5--4-----------------

D--7--6--5------------------

A-------------------------

E-------------------------

 

And that little idea is all over the place, Huey Lewis' Heart and Soul has the same thing. You can take just those notes on the D string, R M7 b7, and find them in a TON of live Hendrix recording.

 

The M7 is the BEST leading tone out there, whether it's resolving a maj7 chord, a Minor chord, or a dom7 it's the REAL leading tone.

 

I think a good look through my Advanced Pentatonics Tutorial will help a lot of people see a fairly easy path to realizing how free you can play over that Dominant chord, it'll show you how take a couple of tiny scales and turn them into a chromatic scale over the dom7 chords. http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm READ IT IN ORDER. It'll show you MANY MANY examples of how every note is used over the Dom7 chord....regardless of style!

[gennation]

 

 

At 3:25 he uses the first 4 notes of the A Blues over a Dm7 chord...from the fretboards point of view. Regardless of it being over a dom7 or a m7, that "first four notes of the Blues scale from the 5th" is a serious dead ringer in a pro's hands. And they got it from guy who were doing it decades before them.

 

There's an idea that picks out all the Minor Pentatonic scales from the Diatonic scales and allows you to play them in succession over static chords. Guys like Jimmy Herring, Jerry Garcia, and overs promote(d) the idea all over.

 

But as a straight concept it's very hit an miss...but if you turn a few of those into "the first four notes of a Blues scale" then you're walking in George Benson, Pat Martino's, etc...area.

 

For dom7 chord the dead ringer is from the 5th, but for Dorian it's from the Root, the 5th, and sometimes the 9th. DON'T play the full Blues scale, over the full Min Pent, ONLY play the first four notes of the Blues scale from these spots:

 

over maj7 - play it from the M3 and the 6

over m7 - play it from the Root, 5th, and sometimes 9th

over the dom7 - play it from the 5th

 

This is the sound that Montgomery, Martino, and Benson copped from the great players before them. Work with it for a while, it won't come right away, but try Mile solo on So What using the m7 thing, or Winston's solo in Freddie Freeloader for the dom7 thing, or almost anything by Farlow, Metheny, or Pass over a maj7 chord.

 

They are VERY important to the sound these players got. Again, it's creating those littel melodic sounds within one scale, turning it into many scales in one that aren't repetitive notes per octave.

[gennation]

The very first lick SRV plays here after the chord intro...

 

 

 

(fretboard wise) He play G7->C7->G7 on that G7...the I7 chord...he plays...

 

E--------3--5p4p3------3--6b(8)

B--3--6-------------6------

G------------------------

D-------------------------

A----------------------------

E-------------------------

 

He plays that "first four Blues scale notes from the 5th" ALL OVER the place. Try moving it with your chords in a Blues progression...there are ALL dom7 chords, (play it from D over the G7 chord, play it from G over the C7 chord, and play it from A over the A7 chord) those four notes from the 5th fit over EVERY chord!!!!

[Jasco]

You expect me to go back through the SRV I've learned and pull out a 1.5 second lick? Transcribe I've only learned one SRV album, Couldn't Stand The Weather, look there. I'll see if I can find something but wouldn't be scouring every little lick. But if you take the time you will find it.

You must have a lot of spare time on your hands Mike, as well as a major itch to prove me wrong.

I know there were a few rare times the blues/rock cats would play a lick like you stated over the I chord which is why I stated this:

When SRV and other blues cats play licks like you posted it's almost always over the V chord.

Note the bold type was in my original post.

I still don't think you'll find any examples at all of the blues/rock ilk playing what you claimed they do a few posts later:

When they play it over the V7 chord they play it from the 5th of the V7 chord. It's that whole Dorian/Minor over Dominant with chromatics idea.

Anyhow, I'm glad you posted your clips as it will serve to illustrate a principle of phrasing and let me ammend my statement that started this debate, for those of us whose vision is too myopic to differentiate between intent and execution.

I think you are confusing chromatic passing tones with funtional melodic notes. Just because someone plays a chromatic line doesn't mean that all the notes in there are really funtional to the harmony or melody. Nor do they merit analysis beyond "chromatic passing tones."

If I played the first example I've posted below, one could analyze it and claim I'm using a 9 and b9 over the Am chord. But really my melodic intent is just the notes of an Am7 arpeggio. Those quick slurred chromatic notes are just there for rhythmic phrasing embelishment. They don't really count, per se, as far as their contribution to the melodic or harmonic substance of the line.

Same thing with the SRV clips. Yes, there is a b9 in there. But it's always as a quick slurred embellishment, either as a chromatic passing note or chord tone neighbor, and doesn't really influence the sound in a dominant b9 direction.

Where as the second example I've posted below, taken from a Django solo on the tune "All of Me" demonstrates a use of the b9 on strong beats with more duration (for both chords E7 and A7), yielding a typical dominant b9 tonality.

I'd also have a similar opinion of your discussions regarding the major 7th over dominant chords. Most of your examples are merely passing tones, not a functional major 7th.

If you don't differentiate between functional melodic notes and quick chromatic passing tones, then you are demonstrating either a lack of understanding or simply just trying to argue for arguments sake.

So for the sake of your anal-ness, let me amend my previous statement that set you off from:

For example, if I'm playing over dominant chords in a Django-style environment, I'd want to flavor them with a lot of b9's. On the other hand, if I were playing over dominant chords in a Stevie Ray Vaughan-style environment, I might not want to do that.

to:

"For example, if I'm playing over dominant chords in a Django-style environment, I'd want to flavor them with a lot of functional b9's. On the other hand, if I were playing over dominant chords in a Stevie Ray Vaughan-style environment, I might not want to do that."

You happy now?

:lol:

[gennation]

You must have a lot of spare time on your hands Mike, as well as a major itch to prove me wrong. I know there were a few rare times the blues/rock cats would play a lick like you stated over the I chord which is why I stated this: Note the bold type was in my original post. I still don't think you'll find any examples at all of the blues/rock ilk playing what you claimed they do a few posts later: Anyhow, I'm glad you posted your clips as it will serve to illustrate a principle of phrasing and let me ammend my statement that started this debate, for those of us whose vision is too myopic to differentiate between intent and execution. I think you are confusing chromatic passing tones with funtional melodic notes. Just because someone plays a chromatic line doesn't mean that all the notes in there are really funtional to the harmony or melody. Nor do they merit analysis beyond "chromatic passing tones." If I played the first example I've posted below, one could analyze it and claim I'm using a 9 and b9 over the Am chord. But really my melodic intent is just the notes of an Am7 arpeggio. Those quick slurred chromatic notes are just there for rhythmic phrasing embelishment. They don't really count, per se, as far as their contribution to the melodic or harmonic substance of the line. Same thing with the SRV clips. Yes, there is a b9 in there. But it's always as a quick slurred embellishment, either as a chromatic passing note or chord tone neighbor, and doesn't really influence the sound in a dominant b9 direction. Where as the second example I've posted below, taken from a Django solo on the tune "All of Me" demonstrates a use of the b9 on strong beats with more duration (for both chords E7 and A7), yielding a typical dominant b9 tonality. I'd also have a similar opinion of your discussions regarding the major 7th over dominant chords. Most of your examples are merely passing tones, not a functional major 7th. If you don't differentiate between functional melodic notes and quick chromatic passing tones, then you are demonstrating either a lack of understanding or simply just trying to argue for arguments sake. So for the sake of your anal-ness, let me amend my previous statement that set you off from: to: "For example, if I'm playing over dominant chords in a Django-style environment, I'd want to flavor them with a lot of functional b9's. On the other hand, if I were playing over dominant chords in a Stevie Ray Vaughan-style environment, I might not want to do that." You happy now? :lol:

 

Hey where all good Jasco, no biggie...it's just the Internet...

 

Actually I just looked a couple of vids for tunes from the Couldn't Stand the Weather album between students last night. I found those those two on the same search, and they were vid #1 and vid #2. Try it youself it'll only take about 30 seconds. I just didn't want to bust out my record player and old albums, that why I was reluctant You should also look up Stangs Swang.

 

I also remembered I had learned a lot of SRV and Hendrix for students and my son also, so I remember how MUCH he played that lick all over the place.

 

For the record, SRV plays pretty much the same licks in every tune...that's why I said he, and the others, play that kind of thing all the time, and why I WOULDN'T be able to agree with "almost always over the V7"...cause he plays it "almost always over the I7".

 

If everyone punched in "Stevie Ray Vaughn" into youtube and posted the links of where he played this lick over the Dominant chord he's on...this might be the largest LL post in history because he plays is So Frequently.

 

I'm not one who normally talks out of my ass, sometimes my views don't sit too good with the textbook crowd here, but I've while I've been deeper into the textbook than most here I have a whole other concept based on nothing but actually music, and I've been learning note for note, or transcribing since 1975 and have had to cover A LOT of music in my days, and in more styles than I can even imagine over the years. So, sometimes I see further than just Interval names and music theory and look at things TOTALLY from an application view.

 

Also, in the discussion we were talking M7 intervals not maj7 chords. A M7 intervals is a M7 intervals...regardless of it being a passing tone, or what beat it's played on. The "chord" we were discussing was the dom7 chord and using the M7 interval against it. Regardless a M7 intervals is still a M7 interval and it's used widely in Dominant based music...so kids, DON'T be afraid of the M7 over a Dom7 chord...EVER!

 

Nothing set me off, I've been here a LONG time...this was an easy clear up because I knew it for fact. And, if you call up a couple of SRV vids you'll find how excessively he uses that lick from the 5th of the dom7 chord. Try some later and live Hendrix too, it's all over the place there too.

 

This leads me back to MY first statement in this thread...

Dominant chord = freedom

 

Again OP, if you are looking for this freedom and opening up your playing over a dom7 chord, DEFINITELY check out my Advanced Pentatonics Tutorial: http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/AdvPent/AvdPentTOC.htm

 

If you're not viewing the the fretboard or the musical direction this way, it's going to open up a whole new world in your playing.

[Jasco]

Also, in the discussion we were talking M7 intervals not maj7 chords. A M7 intervals is a M7 intervals... regardless of it being a passing tone, or what beat it's played on. The "chord" we were discussing was the dom7 chord and using the M7 interval against it. Regardless a M7 intervals is still a M7 interval and it's used widely in Dominant based music...so kids, DON'T be afraid of the M7 over a Dom7 chord...EVER!

So quickly played chromatic passing tones hold just as much functional value as longer sustained notes? To my ear, phrasing is all important as to which notes have functional melodic or harmonic value and which are merely filler.

If you're going to count chromatic passing tones, I'll bet one can find examples of any note "working" over any chord - major, minor, or dominant.

And if all notes work, why bother learning anything. Just play random chromatic bull{censored} over everything.

Those type of statements about "freedom" don't really help someone like the original poster, do they?

Being selective about one's note choice is what allows one to create the desired tonality or mood they are seeking. Sure, on dominant chords one has more options to be selective than major or minor chords, and as one masters each of these options, more freedom to choose which option is appropriate for a given situation is the result.


Since you deem passing notes as valid as notes with sustain in terms of functionality, let me ask you this:

Would you hear a 7b9 chord as the I (or IV or V) chord in a rock/blues SRV style setting? (Since he is obviously playing the b9 over it?) Why or why not?


Would you hear 7b9 chords in a swing Django-style setting? Why or why not?

[Virgman]

Just play random chromatic bull{censored} over everything.

 

Shhhh!