Alex Lifeson, rate him as a guitarist

[1001gear]

Well 1001 did say he was looking for a fight.

 

Nah. Jeremy has the reaction I always get. Incredulity or something along those lines. As if THEIR opinion is in stone from God. And it's always let's see you do better or STFU.

 

Skewz me.

 

This is three guys trying to do extended "pieces of music". In typical prog fashion, what usually happens is some assemblage of pentatonically based riffs and jamming for the duration of "the work".

You get cool moments - sometimes. You get cool passages - sometimes. The overall effect is seldom complete. You often get overworked rock tune. That's it. Compare to accepted symphonies if you have doubts.

[NewGuyonGuitar]

Nah. Jeremy has the reaction I always get. Incredulity or something along those lines. As if THEIR opinion is in stone from God. And it's always let's see you do better or STFU. Skewz me. This is three guys trying to do extended "pieces of music". In typical prog fashion, what usually happens is some assemblage of pentatonically based riffs and jamming for the duration of "the work". You get cool moments - sometimes. You get cool passages - sometimes. The overall effect is seldom complete. You often get overworked rock tune. That's it. Compare to accepted symphonies if you have doubts.

 

 

Waiting for Mr Green to respond.

[mosiddiqi]

With respect to all..I'm not sure that a back and forth on the merits (or not) of Rush really belongs in the LL. One for Guitar Jam I'd have thought...

[1001gear]

 

With respect to all..I'm not sure that a back and forth on the merits (or not) or Rush really belongs in the LL. One for Guitar Jam I'd have thought...

 

 

Well like I said I hate fighting so I'm not posting to incite. I do consider it a matter of education to touch on these conflicts. Insight instead.

 

Sides guitar jam is too fast for me. lol.

[jeremy_green]

Well, in discussions like this something is typically missing that incites "Incredulity or something along those lines". The missing factor is insight. Another is experience. Before I say much let me say I like Rush - but they are not my favourite band and really never have been.

 

So I ask - Gear - from the hand of God (supposedly me) to you - Have you played much Rush as an ensemble? I am not talking about their simple first album stuff. Have you ever attempted to play their more advanced works with a band? Real humans trying to recreate the lines note for note? Well, I have. Living in Canada, doing a Rush tribute type band used to land lots of gigs. Well paying ones. So I have been in and out of several over the years. With that experience in hand let me say this... it is NOT easy. I hear lots of really good level players incapable of playing their music... killing it - in a bad way. Destroying it. Yet these same players can crank out spot on versions of MOST other good bands of that era.

 

So, semi pro to pro players can nail all the big 70's bands... but when they hit a Rush tune, many sound like high school kids trying.

I mean, that is hardly a scientific study and i am hardly no expert... but the proof resides in the pudding as it were.

 

Dislike them all you want. Infer they are not good players and you just lost me.

Because that is nonsense.

[1001gear]

What's doing it got to do with it's poorly written? It's the best those three can come up with and not worth my while to spend the time learning. It's their living, their action. Not my responsibility.

[jeremy_green]

Look, I have said repeatedly that is you don't like it that is one thing. But your opinions go beyond "nah" they go into discussions of whether these guys are good players. Which is ... ahem ... the whole discussion of this thread.

 

You say your opinion on this causes a reaction that is the one you "always get" ... well shouldn't that tell you something? Clearly there is something in your delivery that goes beyond the lines of truth. You say they write simple crap music... Well I guess, like it or not, I can hang with the "crap" part... That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. But the "simple" part is just not accurate. You lack the experience of performing it to make that judgement call. It DOES matter that you DO IT before you say "simple". Because you are mistaken.

 

Is their music the most difficult and artistically credible and challenging ever ... well NO. But is ANYTHING in rock???

It's all simple as compared to great symphonies or jazz fusion type stuff (are you really comparing them to symphonic works??). Rush is a ROCK BAND bro. For Rock their stuff is tough.

 

I've played damn near everything in the rock genre over the years. Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, Peter Gabriel, Sabbath, Zeppelin, Hendrix, Stones, Beatles, Floyd, ELP, Beck, Satriani, Eric Johnson, SRV, Rage, STP, Nirvana, System of a Down, Ozzy, Priest, Maiden, good GOD I could go on and on here... I have played in bands that have performed all these and MANY MANY more. After all that work I can honestly say that in their genre, they wrote some of the most challenging pieces to perform as a band. BTW - Zappa is in a league all on his own! Like holy mother of GOD he was awesome. But I digress.

 

Most people who listen to Rush don't even know it's in an odd time signature - that is not easy to do. So I could argue on their compositional skills as well, but won't as that isn't the theme of this thread. To me the apex of their career was Moving Pictures. Everything before led them to that pinnacle. It is as good an album as any IMO.

[Tommy Gun]

 

Most people who listen to Rush don't even know it's in an odd time signature - that is not easy to do.

 

 

Agreed. They are really good at that.

 

I spent a month transcribing Moving Pictures earlier this year and got a ton out of it. One of the most important things I learned was their use of odd times. Really cool to hear catchy rock choruses/verses in odd times and how it enhances the tune

[jeremy_green]

Yeah Tommy, I had the same observation.

Talk about understated ... most people don't even realize how messed the solo section of "Limelight" is for a band to execute. And I am not just talking about the guitar solo which is incredibly unique. Killer liquid tone too.

[DCurtis]

Well, I real don't want to stir the pot, but...

 

While we're all entitled to our own opinions,

more often than not 1001gear comes off as

argumentative, arrogant and as if he's trying

to see if he can rile people up when expressing

his opinions. For that reason I put him on ignore

recently. He's only one of two people I've ever

done that with.

 

The LL has, over the years, been a more or less

drama free zone. But it does seem that 1001 might

want to re-evaluate how he expresses himself, for the

the better of our little community.

 

As to the subject, I have met countless individuals who

dislike Rush, but acknowledge their musicianship. I really

doubt their ability really can be called into question. But

if they aren't your preference, cool. Nothing to see here,

move along. Start a thread about what you do like. If someone

started a thread about the Scorpions, I'm not going to

bother to post only to express my dislike for them.

 

I think a little courtesy and respect is in order to keep

the LL the classy joint it has been for years.

[1001gear]

@ DC - It's a music discussion group. Good info, not always good taste. The topic is often like it or not, compromised by the show biz aspect. A very powerful industry and double edged sword - especially for those interested in participating. The main concern if there be any one concern seems to be: "How can I be a better rocker?" Fine. The guitarists here know who's who and usually answer that question. In some cases especially with noobs I like to point out there are other and better aspirations and mentor figures. This is respect for good music, not disrespect for the group or anyone in particular. Ignore away, ignorance is bliss.

 

 

@ Jeremy, by your word you're an experienced veteran. By my view, you're a survivor of a lotta bad music. Not condemning anything, just saying. That's how climbing an industry works. And being that the end product is show biz, I can't draw any correlations to experience = correct. This is why I avoid fights. The hypocrisy is endless. I've seen the 'form a circle and play vapor potato' routine you guys do. Not interested in that either. Just the music. Preferably good music.

[benzem]

Anything RUSH does tend to polarize.

 

OT: Who wouldn't like to play like Neil? I can air-drum the crap outta some RUSH. He's the only drummer I can think of that makes me tune out the other parts and focus on the percuss. It's just so clever, and musical. Supportive yet outstanding. He just floors me.

 

OK, sorry, tangent.

[jeremy_green]

 

@ DC - It's a music discussion group. Good info, not always good taste. The topic is often like it or not, compromised by the show biz aspect. A very powerful industry and double edged sword - especially for those interested in participating. The main concern if there be any one concern seems to be: "How can I be a better rocker?" Fine. The guitarists here know who's who and usually answer that question. In some cases especially with noobs I like to point out there are other and better aspirations and mentor figures. This is respect for good music, not disrespect for the group or anyone in particular. Ignore away, ignorance is bliss. @ Jeremy, by your word you're an experienced veteran. By my view, you're a survivor of a lotta bad music. Not condemning anything, just saying. That's how climbing an industry works. And being that the end product is show biz, I can't draw any correlations to experience = correct. This is why I avoid fights. The hypocrisy is endless. I've seen the 'form a circle and play vapor potato' routine you guys do. Not interested in that either. Just the music. Preferably good music.

 

 

I know it would be convenient for you to put my experience aside ... I mean it's such a pain trying to be critical with all these pesky professionals around adding clarity. Ya gotta hate those guys

[1001gear]

I know it would be convenient for you to put my experience aside ... I mean it's such a pain trying to be critical with all these pesky professionals around adding clarity. Ya gotta hate those guys

 

You can beat your chest all you like - don't need to hide behind this interchange. You can't improve yourself by insulting me either. And it doesn't improve Rush any.

 

Back to Rush, suppose I say they're mediocre musicians. You would quash that opinion on the grounds that what? Your opinion is better? More correct? See how dumb that is? Compound that with they really aren't that good. They do Rush like nobody else - some forte. But enough of my opinion. Benzem likes Neo. Maybe he's just baiting, doesn't matter - many people are indeed enamored of Peart and Lee's bassing for that matter. I play drums and pretty well. I just can't buy into that. There are too many actually accomplished musicians ahead of those three.

[jeremy_green]

You can beat your chest all you like - don't need to hide behind this interchange. You can't improve yourself by insulting me either. And it doesn't improve Rush any. Back to Rush, suppose I say they're mediocre musicians. You would quash that opinion on the grounds that what? Your opinion is better? More correct? See how dumb that is? Compound that with they really aren't that good. They do Rush like nobody else - some forte. But enough of my opinion. Benzem likes Neo. Maybe he's just baiting, doesn't matter - many people are indeed enamored of Peart and Lee's bassing for that matter. I play drums and pretty well. I just can't buy into that. There are too many actually accomplished musicians ahead of those three.

 

Brother, there is no chest pounding here... you can paint it that way if you choose.

 

Here is the facts of this conversation:

 

You said Rush were "sophomoric" and inferred numerous times that they aren't good players. Whether either of us likes them or not their abilities as players can be discussed separately from that opinion.

 

I responded by saying that, unlike you (and this IS NOT a slight to you, although you clearly seem to be taking it that way) I have extensively played their catalogue with bands over the years. The result of all that time spent is to say that perhaps your assessment of them as players is not quite accurate. You may not like what they do or the sounds that they make, but none of that changes that they ARE good players, as good as any inside the rock genre - far beyond "sophomoric".

 

Are they Great? - the best in the world? NO - never said that. My beef is that your assessment is overtly critical because you are letting your general dislike for their music cloud your vision.

 

You have made several incorrect assumptions about their music - phrases like "pentatonically based riffs" ... beyond their first album this is simply inaccurate. Again, If you PLAYED their stuff you would come to learn this. THIS is why I bring up me playing it - not to brag that I can, or trump you - but to provide insight into the discussion from a players perspective.

 

Now you can continue to make out like I am beating on you, or bragging, or doing whatever headgame ego BS you want. But this is fiction. You are NOT reading my posts and if you are you are not considering the opinion within.

 

Does being able to play it make my opinion more valid? Well certainly not in terms of the creative - everyone is equal there. But it does with regards to analysis of the work or a determination of the level of a players ability. Because of the technical comparables.

 

It's like looking at a bridge over the highway. Yes anyone can discuss the relative merits and appearance of the bridge... You can discuss it's placement or design.. and in this regard all opinions are equal. But if you want to understand the specifics of its construction or how much load it can handle - then all opinions are no longer equal. You want to talk to the construction team and the engineers - people with a deeper understanding of the whole picture. People who actually take an active role in creating someone elses object. Actually doing something does add deeper insights to a persons opinions.

 

If I said something about a band and JonR provided me his usual excellent theoretical insights into their works, I would CERTAINLY re-evaluate my stance and re-listen with open ears. I don't care if you don't agree, but at least listen and consider the opinions with an open mind before doing so. You keep getting all insulted.

[1001gear]

I am reading your posts. You're simply not that credible. I believe you yes. I can't however lens much credence to your rock veteran mentality. Anyway all you're saying is your assessment is the correct one. You said that way back there. Consider this, I find Rush's material poorly written and conceived therefore how can I believe they are good players? And of course I believe you are wrong. So what else is new?

[Virgman]

I always like to get in the last word in arguments so here goes:

 

WORD

[jeremy_green]

 

I always like to get in the last word in arguments so here goes: WORD

 

 

You are like my wife ... except much much MUCH uglier : )

[Virgman]

 

You are like my wife ... except much much MUCH uglier : )

 

 

last

 

WORD

[the_SLOP_king]

Alex Lifeson is awesome. YYZ??? Come on.

 

 

 

I don't wanna sound queer or nothin, but I think Geddy Lee's got a kick ass voice.

[Virgman]

last

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

word

[3shiftgtr]

 

You get cool moments - sometimes. You get cool passages - sometimes. The overall effect is seldom complete. You often get overworked rock tune. That's it. Compare to accepted symphonies if you have doubts.

 

 

O.K...you fail to understand something....here's the typical teenage 70's Rush fan's experience:

 

You are learning how to play. You put on 2112. You listen and read the liner notes with the Ayn Rand quotes from the book and the lyrics. You can relate. "Hey, this guitar is the key" is what the piece says to the teenage boy with the guitar. Add big riffs, killer tones, great heartfelt solos (the solo in the Sililoquy is one of my favorite solos of all time in any genre....I mean crap, he uses the soulful crying bend as a musical metaphor for the door to death....c'mon!), concise yet expansive writing that is VERY effective in getting the point across and while somewhat simple, it is VERY dramatic.

 

Aaaaaand now your in. It is as complete as you can get.

 

And comparing it to symphonic music is juvenile in proving your point. KInda like comparing rock to Coltrane....just silly. Worlds apart.

[Tommy Gun]

One of my favorite Lifeson solo's is Cut to the Chase (2:42 onwards)

One of the few times he lets loose and plays fast and furious..it has a cool Eric Johnson vibe

[video=youtube;BqRx49TwP9E]

[1001gear]

 

O.K...you fail to understand something....here's the typical teenage 70's Rush fan's experience: You are learning how to play. You put on 2112. You listen and read the liner notes with the Ayn Rand quotes from the book and the lyrics. You can relate. "Hey, this guitar is the key" is what the piece says to the teenage boy with the guitar. Add big riffs, killer tones, great heartfelt solos (the solo in the Sililoquy is one of my favorite solos of all time in any genre....I mean crap, he uses the soulful crying bend as a musical metaphor for the door to death....c'mon!), concise yet expansive writing that is VERY effective in getting the point across and while somewhat simple, it is VERY dramatic. Aaaaaand now your in. It is as complete as you can get. And comparing it to symphonic music is juvenile in proving your point. KInda like comparing rock to Coltrane....just silly. Worlds apart.

 

 

Shirley you're not serious!? Besides I don't question that they have fans - I already postulated something about browbeaten post hippies searching for legitimacy. Maybe I shoulda specified pothead rockers as well? i got my first drums in the late 60s. By the 70s I was preoccupied with Bach, Brahms, Big Band jazz, learning wtf my drumming had to do with anything and other worldly pursuits. Prog was seriously crude stuff by comparison.

 

Anyway extended pieces of music or any kind of performance genre - ballet, movies; whatever,

are the domain of people who can actually compose on that scale. Three guys; guitar bass and drums; good luck.

[jonfinn]

I like Rush. Always did. By today's standards, their music sounds trite and dated. But in their day, they were at the forefront. No-one sounded like them. Now, so many bands have carried their torch further.

 

Alex Lifeson was one of the first Prog Rock guitarists with a truly polished tone. Listen to "Spirit of the Radio" or "Tom Sawyer" and compare the guitar tones to other recordings from the same era. I'm sorry but very few recordings from that era will measure up.

 

Like it or not, Neal Peart is a drumming icon. Proof? How many basements are filled to the brim with enormous drum sets? Look no further than youtube for evidence. If you know anything about Neil Peart's personal life, you might think differently about him. His drumming is perfect for the band. So much so that it's a cliche.

 

Geddy Lee: One of the first to use the Taurus bass pedals while playing keyboards in a rock setting. His bass playing is perfect for the band. Even if you don't like it, you have to acknowledge that no-one else sings quite the way Geddy Lee does. In my mind, the fact that he never engages in Rock Star Diva behavior (that I know of) earns him points in my book.

 

They're not my favorite band ever. Far from it. But I don't feel comfortable sitting on the sidelines criticizing them like an armchair quarterback. I'd much rather spend my time trying to make music that builds on what others have done (i.e. "do better").