The Gibson Firebird X Rational Discussion Thread

[Anderton]

There's been a huge amount of bashing of this guitar online, and that's fine (after all, this is the internet!) but I thought some of you might have actual questions about or interest in the guitar, hence this thread.

 

I have a prototype version here so I know it as well as anyone else. However, there are a few things you need to know.

 

1. I am being paid to do sound design for the presets. However, I don't like the guitar because I am being paid to work on it; I am being paid to work on it because I like what this guitar is all about. Furthermore, I've lowered my standard rate in return for getting to keep the guitar. I don't need the work, but I love sound design and doing a guitar is a particularly fascinating challenge.

 

2. I am biased in favor of the whole high-tech guitar concept (which is why I started this forum). I like automatic tuning, polyphonic outputs, onboard effects, etc. This doesn't invalidate my other guitars - I see it as the difference between synthesizer and piano. They are different instruments and just because you like synth doesn't prevent you from liking piano, and vice-versa.

 

3. All the opinions stated in this thread are mine alone. I am not an employee or representative of Gibson, and they have neither approved nor discouraged my doing this thread. I am doing this thread solely in my capacity as Editor in Chief of Harmony Central, where my job is to create content of interest to musicians for this site.

 

Now, a few things about the guitar.

 

Yes, it's expensive - too expensive for most people by a long shot. However, I don't feel that's a reason to trash it. High-tech always costs a lot when introduced due to R&D and development, and prices come down over time as those costs are amortized. I do not know if Gibson has any specific plans for the technology in Firebird X to "trickle down" to future products, but common sense would indicate they wouldn't spend a huge amount of $$ on this technology only to walk away from it.

 

Second, I really like this guitar. Like most people, when I first heard "on-board effects" my reaction was . I remember those guitars with cheap fuzztones built in, and for someone who resists even having a battery in a guitar, I was skeptical. But, the process of doing sound design has turned me around 180 degrees. The onboard DSP engine is extremely flexible, and the sound quality of the effects is equal to or better than the plug-ins in my computer. What's more, compared to plug-ins, there's no latency - I can dial up the sound and record it, just as if I was using external effects or an amp.

 

I also like that not only is the software updatable, but that the internal DSP hardware comes on a user-replaceable card. This is good for servicing - I'd rather carry a spare card than a spare guitar should something go wrong - but it also means that it's possible to update the current hardware with more powerful hardware at some point in the future. Whether Gibson has plans to do that is something I don't know, but at least the option is there.

 

Finally, the playability is great. The guitar is light, the neck is fast, and in a way, the feel reminds me more of a "super-Tele" than anything else.

 

So...I'd be glad to answer any questions you might have about the guitar or the technology, to the best of my knowledge. I do feel this sort of technology will eventually work its way into more and more guitars, not just from Gibson, and it's interesting to peer into the future and speculate as to where this type of guitar is going.

 

I'll also be posting audio examples of some of the sounds I'm developing.

[Anderton]

My opinions are not all positive. Here are some limitations.

 

The guitar will not function without the internal battery. Unlike Dark Fire and Dusk Tiger, you can't get an output because the pickups are active. Fortunately, the battery is an inexpensive, standard camcorder type and is user-replaceable, so switching out power isn't bad, and the battery lasts at least two hours. Still, no juice = no sound.

 

I don't see any way that it's possible to add something like a Bigsby vibrato tailpiece due to the way the bridge is constructed, where the strings have to be electrically insulated from each other for the Robot Tuning function to work.

 

Any touring pro will likely want a backup guitar, and that really ups the cost. I will say that the previous high-tech guitars from Gibson have been 100% reliable; I've never experienced a failure. But, that doesn't mean one shouldn't be prepared, and simply having a replacement DSP engine card may not be enough if there's a problem with the wiring harness, or an electro-mechanical part like a switch. Of course synth players are familiar with the concept of playing an instrument where electronic failure is possible, but for guitarists who use a standard, passive guitar where almost nothing can go wrong short of dropping the guitar, the idea of having all this technology inside a guitar can be scary.

 

The onboard faders are short-throw, and while some of them are useful for changing effects when playing live, some require really precise settings to get the setting you want. I see them more as something for studio work when you want to tweak a sound than a tool that's really viable for live performance, although to be fair, I have seen people use the faders really well...it may just be a question of practice.

[Anderton]

Now, here's what I really like.

 

The Robot Tuning thing is so convenient. Alternate tunings are useable, and when recording, it's so easy to touch up tuning in seconds.

 

The "togpots" that let you alter sounds in real time are fantastic. I thought that the idea of having to take your hands off the strings to make an adjustment was dead in the water - I mean, we're guitarists, we need to use our hands! But in practice, I don't play every single millisecond and it seems that most of my togpot tweaking happens when something like a chord is sustaining, to add a dramatic element. Being able to bring in chorus, delay, distortion etc. in real time is very cool, because you can "morph" sounds - it's not an on/off situation like a footswitch, nor do you have to bend down to a footpedal, or around to a rack, to tweak a control. This was one of the major surprises of the guitar between theory and practice - in theory, I thought it wouldn't work but in practice, it does.

 

I LOVE the sound of the pickups. There are a zillion different combinations you can get - humbucker, parallel, single coil, in phase, out of phase, reversed coils, etc. Some of these almost sound like clavinet or FM synth sounds, without any electronic processing at all. And because of the onboard electronics, you can take pickup sounds that would normally be excessively low in volume (e.g., out of phase sounds) and apply gain to bring them up to a suitable level.

 

The sound is super-clean and clear because the pickups are matched perfectly to the on-board electronics - there are no impedance or level-matching issues. Gibson claims a dynamic range of greater than 100dB, and I believe it. Even high-gain sounds have very little noise and hiss, and the onboard noise gate takes care of any residual hiss. BUT - the important thing here is that due to the low noise, the gate can sit at a really low level, like -75dB. As I've always said, noise reduction works best on signals that don't have much noise, and that's the case here. The noise gate takes the sound from quiet to dead quiet, not noisy to dead quiet.

 

The onboard DSP is great. I'm getting sounds that I really like. Of course processors like distortion are very subjective, but when I hear the tracks coming back to me from my DAW, I'm very, very happy with the sound.

 

The convenience is another factor I didn't really consider until I had the guitar in my hands. When playing, it's just so easy to dial in the sound I want - turn a knob, flick the knife switch, done - all from the guitar itself. Granted that calling up a preset from an amp sim or a POD HD isn't exactly labor-intensive, but even being able to work 15-20% faster is a big deal to me, and I'd estimate that's the workflow improvement I'm getting from Firebird X, what with the Robot tuning and quick sound switching.

 

Finally, the guitar is really comfortable to play, either standing up or sitting down. FWIW the original body design was even smaller, which I liked a lot but didn't go over well with the initial round of pro guitarists who participated in the beta tests...they felt it looked too diminutive. Oh well. It's still very comfortable.

 

After working with this guitar in a relatively stable form for several weeks, I have no doubt it will become my go-to guitar for the reasons mentioned above. Oh, one other thing about batterles: They charge in less time than they take to fully discharge. So during the sound design process, which is hard on batteries, when a battery dies I put it in the charger and swap it out. When the next battery runs out of power, the one in the charger is ready to go.

 

Any questions?

[stickman393]

>> Any questions?

 

Yeah - how does it feel to have something that ugly around your neck?

 

 

... sorry... couldn't resist... will go back to my cave now.

[Anderton]

Any questions? Yeah - how does it feel to have something that ugly around your neck? ... sorry... couldn't resist... will go back to my cave now.

 

Well, it feels pretty light!

 

I don't find the looks a problem. To me it looks more like a car from the 50s...chrome and tail fins, sort of a retro vibe. Then again, I like guitars that are out of the ordinary - if you've seen any of my Frankfurt Musik Messe coverage, a lot of my guitar coverage consists of axes that make Firebird X look downright conservative. Maybe it comes from lusting after Burns guitars when I was a kid

 

My 15-year-old daughter hated the way Dusk Tiger looked, but thinks FBX is the coolest-looking guitar I have. I will say it looks different in person than in the photos, where it appears kind of orange. My guitar is a lot darker, so the controls tend to disappear into it more.

 

But - I also hear they've changed the finish although it's still red-based. Haven't seen it, though, so I don't know what to expect.

 

Overall I'm not that concerned with the looks one way or the other. With a guitar like this, the ergonomics and sound matter most to me. All those controls look weird on a guitar, but they're placed so that they're easy to use.

[Flogger59]

Thanks for this, Craig, I'm glad someone is giving it a chance. I'm more old school, but I'm not averse to innovation.

[Anderton]

Thanks for this, Craig, I'm glad someone is giving it a chance. I'm more old school, but I'm not averse to innovation.

 

Firebird X is a different type of instrument - more electronic guitar than electric guitar. There's nothing wrong with old school at all. If you look at the pattern over the years with Gibson, the high-tech instruments run on a parallel track with their conventional guitars. I don't know facts and finances, but I'd bet just about anything it's the electric guitars that keep the lights on at Gibson, not the electronic ones.

 

But, I have to say, what the high-tech guitars can do is fascinating. I feel like I'm in at the ground floor of something that will continue to evolve and be refined in the years ahead. For example, having electronics inside the guitar offers potential that Firebird X doesn't tap yet, but I'd like to see tapped in the future where what you play on the guitar, and how you play it, ties into to effects control so that the effects become a partner in your playing rather than being just "processors."

 

I definitely realize this type of instrument isn't for everyone. But, I also feel there are people who could really get behind it if a) they knew what it does, and b) could afford it. Price is definitely a barrier, although I've never seen high-tech devices go up in price over time. Either the price goes down, or the price stays the same but capabilities increase.

[MIDIme]

I like tech stuff. But, what rational musician would spend the money this costs and only have two hours of battery/play life? Seriously.

[juri]

One of the videos showed some serious lag between switching settings, is this true?

 

How easy will it be to upgrade the unit later?

 

If you look at the fender guitar that is coming out on several gaming systems for rock band 3 you see that the controller is a regular guitar that is able to transmit a signal to your gaming system. Why would you not create a regular controller and have it transmit what you are doing through either wireless or a cable and have an effects unit process that information. This way the effects unit could be updated, you would have a platform for people to extend, etc.... This somehow makes more sense to me then to put everything in the guitar.

[Anderton]

I like tech stuff. But, what rational musician would spend the money this costs and only have two hours of battery/play life? Seriously.

 

The two hours I quoted was for the sound design work, which really exercises the guitar. When I was just playing it, the battery life was more like three hours. But also, from what I understand there are various power-saving options that haven't been implemented yet, like turning off the piezo pickup electronics if it's not used in a patch. Again, let me emphasize I'm just doing the sound design but I get the sense that battery life will be extended in production models.

 

That said, I can change the battery literally in seconds. As long as one is charged up that I can swap out, then I can go for at least four hours and I rarely play sets that are much over three. So personally, it's not a big problem.

[Anderton]

One of the videos showed some serious lag between switching settings, is this true?

 

It was the case, but is improving with each software iteration. I don't know much of the details, but my experiencing with beta testing software like DAWs is that they run slowly due to the debugging code. Once that's removed, the program runs much faster. Possibly that's what's happening here.

 

How easy will it be to upgrade the unit later?

 

Regarding "upgrade" in the sense of more patches or re-arranged patches, there's an editor for it so you'll be able to alter the internal sounds and tunings as desired. I have a folder of patches I've done that probably won't make the cut for the onboard presets because they're either too "out there" or represent variations on the onboard presets, and I've suggested they be offered as free downloads.

 

As to how the software gets upgraded (new effects or whatever), I believe it's going to be done through Bluetooth rather than something like USB or an EPROM change.

 

The audio engine itself is on a small user-replaceable board, so upgrading that would be simply pulling it out and putting in another one.

 

If you look at the fender guitar that is coming out on several gaming systems for rock band 3 you see that the controller is a regular guitar that is able to transmit a signal to your gaming system. Why would you not create a regular controller and have it transmit what you are doing through either wireless or a cable and have an effects unit process that information. This way the effects unit could be updated, you would have a platform for people to extend, etc.... This somehow makes more sense to me then to put everything in the guitar.

 

One issue is that the guitar produces actual audio, and that takes a lot of bandwidth. I don't know if current consumer technology (like Bluetooth or whatever) can handle real-time audio at high fidelity, especially something like hex outputs, with enough reliability for live use.

 

The idea of having all the guitar's controls send control signals to an outboard effects unit is a good one, and I would be surprised if Gibson didn't consider it. However, I suspect that part of the goal with Firebird X was to have something with an output jack you could just plug in to an amp. Also, the pedals and footswitches are set up as you describe, with wireless communication with the guitar so at least part of what you're talking about is being done externally.

 

Another issue might be (and again, I don't know the technical nuts and bolts) is that the togpots and controls are all analog, so I presume they're going into A/D converters. The resolution seems high - I don't hear "stair-stepping" when moving the togpots - so being able to generate multiple high-resolution control signals simultaneously without delays might be an issue.

 

Nonetheless, your points are good ones and the kind of discussion I was hoping to see in this thread!

[mlabbee]

so if I understand what this can do, you could load in software to process each string independently - like the VG-99 or Variax? But more of an open platform (i.e., you can load 3rd party software). That seems pretty cool as long as the processor has some oomph.

[Anderton]

so if I understand what this can do, you could load in software to process each string independently - like the VG-99 or Variax? But more of an open platform (i.e., you can load 3rd party software). That seems pretty cool as long as the processor has some oomph.

 

Yes, you can, but you could with Dark Fire and Dusk Tiger too, and even could with the Gibson Digital Guitar. The six outs come from the piezo pickup, and are multiplexed down a standard cable that terminates in a FireWire interface that comes with the guitar (it's designed by Echo Electronics). The outputs show up in your computer as six separate inputs (one for each string). With Dark Fire and Dusk Tiger - and I presume this will be the case for Firebird X - you have two additional outputs: one for the magnetic pickups, and one for the piezo overall output (not individual strings, the same output used for the acoustic sounds).

 

I posted a review of the Digital Guitar when it first came out, and you can hear a bunch of audio examples if you want to hear some of the things you can do with hex outs. My favorite application is running the bottom three strings through octave dividers, the top four through chorus, and the magnetic pickups through distortion. It's the setup I use with EV2, a two-piece band project with Brian Hardgroove (Public Enemy) on drums.

 

FYI Firebird X comes with Guitar Rig 4 (full edition, not LE) and Ableton Live 8 lite, and the patches I'll be designing for it once I have the interface here will be downloadable from the Gibson site.

[Cats Daddy]

Any questions?

 

Hi, Craig!

 

Long time listener, first time caller.

 

I've been following your comments about Gibson's robotic efforts since the Dark Fire, and I've liked what I've read.

 

I own one of the original Robot's, and I just love it! I would have bought all of the subsequent Tronical-based Gibsons (yes, even the Dusk Tiger! ) but my personal finances simply wouldn't allow it. Time will tell if I can afford a Firebird X.

 

I see that an update (http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/firebird-update-1202/) has been posted at the Gibson website:

 

"The revolution will have to wait just a bit longer, friends. The shipping of Firebird X has been delayed

[Anderton]

Hi, Craig! Long time listener, first time caller.

 

Welcome! Don't be a stranger.

 

My two-part question is, have you heard specifically what Gibson has done to improve the guitar, especially under the hood...and can you share that information here?

 

Well, just from a sound design standpoint, the single delay went to a dual delay. This has been great for programming, as for some patches I'm using a short, static delay mixed at a fairly low level to add "fatness." Also, as the delays can be modulated (I pushed for that, and bless 'em, they said "sure"), if I modulate both delays and the chorus, it's possible to get a huge chorus sound. The looper delay is longer, too You can do some truly wild stuff.

 

There have also been some functionality changes on the togpots. For example, the distortion togpot rotation has changed from dry/wet to distortion drive. Similar results, but more what people expect. A REALLY cool addition is that before, the pickup selection was "baked into" patches - in other words, I'd design a patch to use a specific pickup or pickup combination. It still works that way, but by moving the piezo togpot to the up position, the knife switch acts like a standard pickup selector instead of a patch selector. So you can do something like select a patch, but if you decide you'd rather it had a bridge pickup sound than neck pickup, you can do this.

 

Another change is they added an octave divider. It works about the same as any other I've tried - not perfect, but useable - and I've been able to create some pretty cool bass patches, as well as bass+distorted guitar.

 

But really, those are relatively minor changes compared to what else is going on with the pedals, interface, and editor. That's all happening in Nashville, Southern California, and Germany, and frankly a lot of it's above my head...all I know is every now and then someone says "Hey Craig, you need new firmware" and I download new firmware into the guitar. Supposedly I'm going to need a new audio engine board soon in order to communicate with the peripherals, so I guess they were serious about the audio engine being easily user-replaceable.

 

I also know they're optimizing various aspects of the circuitry to extend battery life, and making a few UI changes on the "GearShift" knob that make it easier to see where you are in a bank. There are also many other technical changes I'm not concerned with personally because they don't impact designing sounds, but apparently some of these are quite profound.

 

As to me...at the moment I've pretty much completed five banks of five patches each: Acoustic, rock/blues, country, metal, and hip-hop. I have to say, I'm really happy with the sounds, I'd use them on a record any time. I guess I'm patting myself on the back somewhat here, but really, I wouldn't be able to do the patches I've done without the toolset that Gibson came up with (I did have input into the effects, but they tended to be more about details - like insisting that the delays be modulatable, and that there be a variable low-pass filter in the delay feedback loop).

 

The one thing that keeps surprising me every time I pick up the guitar is how absurdly quiet it is, even with high-gain, distorted patches. I've been told this has a lot to do with the effects being built-in, but whatever...it's nice to leave "white noise generators" behind.

 

I remain very psyched about this guitar personally, because I feel like I've really had a chance to learn my way around the gazillion parameters, so the sounds just keep getting more refined. It's still too expensive for most people, and people will still continue to diss it for whatever reason, but as a glimpse into the future this is a significant instrument. 10-20 years from now, I think having DSP in guitars will be common just because once exposed to it, more and more people will get into it and want it. I really see guitars splitting into two families, in the same kind of way that keyboards split into traditional pianos and electronic keyboards.

[mlabbee]

Yes, you can, but you could with Dark Fire and Dusk Tiger too, and even could with the Gibson Digital Guitar. The six outs come from the piezo pickup, and are multiplexed down a standard cable that terminates in a FireWire interface that comes with the guitar (it's designed by Echo Electronics). The outputs show up in your computer as six separate inputs (one for each string). With Dark Fire and Dusk Tiger - and I presume this will be the case for Firebird X - you have two additional outputs: one for the magnetic pickups, and one for the piezo overall output (not individual strings, the same output used for the acoustic sounds). I posted a review of the Digital Guitar when it first came out, and you can hear a bunch of audio examples if you want to hear some of the things you can do with hex outs. My favorite application is running the bottom three strings through octave dividers, the top four through chorus, and the magnetic pickups through distortion. It's the setup I use with EV2, a two-piece band project with Brian Hardgroove (Public Enemy) on drums. FYI Firebird X comes with Guitar Rig 4 (full edition, not LE) and Ableton Live 8 lite, and the patches I'll be designing for it once I have the interface here will be downloadable from the Gibson site.

 

I meant can it process each string individually with the on-board processors - so for example, could you load a smart harmony patch in the on-broad processors that shifts each string independently for a polyphonic harmonic shift that outputs from the standard guitar out? (Basically what the Variax does)

[Anderton]

I meant can it process each string individually with the on-board processors - so for example, could you load a smart harmony patch in the on-broad processors that shifts each string independently for a polyphonic harmonic shift that outputs from the standard guitar out? (Basically what the Variax does)

 

Oh, okay...no, the current guitar doesn't do hex processing onboard. Don't know if that's planned for the future or not, but for now, you need a computer-based setup to use the hex outs. I'm assuming this has to do with the amount of DSP that's required, six instances of Guitar Rig 4 can even be a challenge for a computer.

 

However, as to pitch changes per string, that's what the Robot Tuning does. It doesn't change the string pitch electronically but mechanically, by actually tuning the string to a different pitch.

[VonWinge1965]

I just recently picked one of these up off Reverb. I personally think it looks retro cool. What type of replacement battery should I get? Does the auto tune CPU have an internal battery? Cheers

[badpenguin]

See if there is an online manual for that thing.