Members voerking Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 What in the heck is he talking about??? it reminds of star trek style pseudo science techno-babble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phyrexia Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 What is he talking about Apparently you can take the same schematic, and if you lay it out two different ways it will sound different. I assume because of electrical and magnetic fields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chriss Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by BillyGrahamCracker When I saw you'd started this thread earlier, I knew I'd come back in a couple hours and have a good larf. And I knew I'd see that picture. The "mangina" bit was just the icing on the cake(s). That's not technically a mangina. His ass is actually on the front of his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sir H C Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 With high gain circuitry, layout is 1/2 the design. You can get parasitic loops, noises, coupling, lots of ugly stuff. Look inside a Trainwreck, and that is what you will see. Remember all these amps have gained in value and the money is going to people other than the designer. If you buy a Dumble off of e-bay, Howard (Alexander) gets none of the money. That is going to someone else. So, if he sells an amp new, should he charge less than what some other person can get for reselling his work? Is it his fault that the values for his amps are so out of line with reality? I hope he and Ken Fisher make all the money their amps are fetching, because heck they created them first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fernmeister Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by phyrexia Apparently you can take the same schematic, and if you lay it out two different ways it will sound different. I assume because of electrical and magnetic fields. there are issues related to the proximity of tubes, particularly output tubes to the power transformer. this is all pretty well known stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members voerking Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 this talk of layout reminds me of the article that andy marshall (THD) wrote defending PCB construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillyGrahamCracker Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by Sir H C Remember all these amps have gained in value and the money is going to people other than the designer. If you buy a Dumble off of e-bay, Howard (Alexander) gets none of the money. That is going to someone else. So, if he sells an amp new, should he charge less than what some other person can get for reselling his work? Is it his fault that the values for his amps are so out of line with reality? I hope he and Ken Fisher make all the money their amps are fetching, because heck they created them first. It's the same as with anyone on here whose pedals have done well, though, isn't it? I mean, I agree with you, but it's not like it's only those guys. That's just the way stuff works, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members voerking Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 From Andy Marshall: Not all manufacturers choose to use PC boards just to save money. We use them for consistency more than for price, but making a somewhat affordable amplifier is a nice benefit. I don't think that someone should have to be a lawyer or Microsoft Millionaire to be able to afford a new amplifier that is hand-built, reliable and sounds and feels good to play. If a PC board is designed correctly and the correct components are used, the amplifier production should be absolutely consistent from one unit to the next. No re-routing of traces should ever be necessary to make an amp function or sound right. If you find it necessary to change and re-rout wires in your amps, then you are not in production, but are just making a series of unstable prototypes. Treble reduction to the point where it reduces the clarity of the amplifier is not an acceptable stabilizing technique for either a PTP or PCB amplifier. Recently, we got a call from a tech complimenting us on our old Plexi model amplifier (that we built between 1990 and 1995), but he said that it was just a little bit "stiff in the high-end" compared to a real Marshall Plexi. To back up his point, he told us that he had a real Marshall Plexi on the bench next to ours and was comparing the two side by side. What he did not seem to realize was that no two Marshall Plexis sound the same. They were terribly inconsistent with their component sources and values, not to mention the inconsistencies in wire routing. Taking a point to point or a turret-board amplifier, if one moves the wires around, the entire sound and character of the amplifier can change, often dramatically. This is a well-recognized phenomenon. If you understand these interactions well, you can design a PC board to sound and feel any way you want it to. Furthermore, every one will sound the same. How many times have you plugged into an old Marshall-50 watt head, only to be terribly disappointed by the sound and feel of the amplifier? While this may be caused by poor tubes, at least in part, inconsistencies in the internal layout of the amplifier often play a significant role. If you understand how one component affects the component next to it and how one trace affects the trace next to it, then you should be able lay out a circuit board correctly the first time, not by building 10 and picking the best one. Mind you, it takes many years of experience to develop the sort of understanding of the capacitive and inductive interrelations involved. In the old days, I did this for a living for other companies, designing circuit boards for the audio sections of amplifiers, mixing consoles, signal processing equipment, etc... While I am under confidentiality agreements with almost all of my former clients, I can tell you that there is hardly a professional recording studio in the US or Europe that does not have some audio circuit board with my layout in some piece of equipment. After a few hundred such projects, one develops an intricate understanding of how traces and components interact. A number of years ago, Guitar Player magazine did a review of one of our amplifiers. They stated that they, as a general rule, do not care for circuit board amplifiers, but also said that I had addressed every one of their concerns, and that they had nothing bad to say regarding our use of circuit boards. It felt good to see someone start to understand what it is that we do and why. Certain components throw a rather large field. Others do not. Some components are very susceptible to the fields from other components, while some are not. Components can affect the signal passing through traces, and traces can affect the signal passing through components. It ends up being an enormous network of positive and negative feedback between components within each other's sway. This is why the distance between specific components on the board and the physical orientation of the components relative to one another (rotational orientation, as well as lateral placement) cannot be ignored. Furthermore, which traces are parallel to one another and at what distance, which traces are perpendicular to one another and that what distance, and the amount of ground plane in-between them can seriously affect the overall sound and feel of the finished amplifier. Most people design circuit boards either haphazardly or for the greatest parts density/easiest and least expensive manufacture. Neither of these methods belongs in a high-end amplifier, and such approaches give PC Board designs a bad name. If you know what you are doing, a thicker board is better than a thinner board (ours are .093" or 3/32", most are .062 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sir H C Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by BillyGrahamCracker It's the same as with anyone on here whose pedals have done well, though, isn't it? I mean, I agree with you, but it's not like it's only those guys. That's just the way stuff works, I guess. I guess they hit it first. Way Huge would also have to be there. To me it is sad when the person who put all the effort in is not getting the rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricMayhem Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by AMZ-FX I can use a Fender chassis, but you have to rip everything off of it, fill in all the holes and re-drill it. They're just a little bit too squashed. Distances of half a centimeter make a big difference in the way something sounds. It's a science involved with something called circuit constants. What in the heck is he talking about??? -Jack You know, I gotta say, messing around with a bedrock 2x12 combo that had the chassis perpendicular to the floor really made me wonder about stuff like this. I swear it sounded better when the chassis was parallel to the floor. I ended up buying a head cabinet (marshall style) and never looking back. It sounds so much better now. I think odd {censored} like that (as well as where the parts are in relation to one another) may make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scafeets Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 Originally posted by AMZ-FX I can use a Fender chassis, but you have to rip everything off of it, fill in all the holes and re-drill it. They're just a little bit too squashed. Distances of half a centimeter make a big difference in the way something sounds. It's a science involved with something called circuit constants. What in the heck is he talking about??? -Jack need to make room for the flux capacitors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Roy Brooks Posted October 10, 2005 Members Share Posted October 10, 2005 My favorite Dumble users are Henry Kaiser and Steve Kimock, two cats who don't play waiting room music. If they did I would be spending alot more time in waiting rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fusionid Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by voerking From Andy Marshall: Not all manufacturers choose to use PC boards just to save money. We use them for consistency more than for price, but making a somewhat affordable amplifier is a nice benefit. I don't think that someone should have to be a lawyer or Microsoft Millionaire to be able to afford a new amplifier that is hand-built, reliable and sounds and feels good to play. If a PC board is designed correctly and the correct components are used, the amplifier production should be absolutely consistent from one unit to the next. No re-routing of traces should ever be necessary to make an amp function or sound right. If you find it necessary to change and re-rout wires in your amps, then you are not in production, but are just making a series of unstable prototypes. Treble reduction to the point where it reduces the clarity of the amplifier is not an acceptable stabilizing technique for either a PTP or PCB amplifier. Recently, we got a call from a tech complimenting us on our old Plexi model amplifier (that we built between 1990 and 1995), but he said that it was just a little bit "stiff in the high-end" compared to a real Marshall Plexi. To back up his point, he told us that he had a real Marshall Plexi on the bench next to ours and was comparing the two side by side. What he did not seem to realize was that no two Marshall Plexis sound the same. They were terribly inconsistent with their component sources and values, not to mention the inconsistencies in wire routing. Taking a point to point or a turret-board amplifier, if one moves the wires around, the entire sound and character of the amplifier can change, often dramatically. This is a well-recognized phenomenon. If you understand these interactions well, you can design a PC board to sound and feel any way you want it to. Furthermore, every one will sound the same. How many times have you plugged into an old Marshall-50 watt head, only to be terribly disappointed by the sound and feel of the amplifier? While this may be caused by poor tubes, at least in part, inconsistencies in the internal layout of the amplifier often play a significant role. If you understand how one component affects the component next to it and how one trace affects the trace next to it, then you should be able lay out a circuit board correctly the first time, not by building 10 and picking the best one. Mind you, it takes many years of experience to develop the sort of understanding of the capacitive and inductive interrelations involved. In the old days, I did this for a living for other companies, designing circuit boards for the audio sections of amplifiers, mixing consoles, signal processing equipment, etc... While I am under confidentiality agreements with almost all of my former clients, I can tell you that there is hardly a professional recording studio in the US or Europe that does not have some audio circuit board with my layout in some piece of equipment. After a few hundred such projects, one develops an intricate understanding of how traces and components interact. A number of years ago, Guitar Player magazine did a review of one of our amplifiers. They stated that they, as a general rule, do not care for circuit board amplifiers, but also said that I had addressed every one of their concerns, and that they had nothing bad to say regarding our use of circuit boards. It felt good to see someone start to understand what it is that we do and why. Certain components throw a rather large field. Others do not. Some components are very susceptible to the fields from other components, while some are not. Components can affect the signal passing through traces, and traces can affect the signal passing through components. It ends up being an enormous network of positive and negative feedback between components within each other's sway. This is why the distance between specific components on the board and the physical orientation of the components relative to one another (rotational orientation, as well as lateral placement) cannot be ignored. Furthermore, which traces are parallel to one another and at what distance, which traces are perpendicular to one another and that what distance, and the amount of ground plane in-between them can seriously affect the overall sound and feel of the finished amplifier. Most people design circuit boards either haphazardly or for the greatest parts density/easiest and least expensive manufacture. Neither of these methods belongs in a high-end amplifier, and such approaches give PC Board designs a bad name. If you know what you are doing, a thicker board is better than a thinner board (ours are .093" or 3/32", most are .062 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fast Frets Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by Roy Brooks My favorite Dumble users are Henry Kaiser and Steve Kimock, two cats who don't play waiting room music. If they did I would be spending alot more time in waiting rooms. +1 !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members #16 Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by blaghaus What are they? Who are is Mr Dumble? Who uses them? Where can I hear one? I mean, I know they are amps. I know they are good amps. But like how good are they? The clue to the *fairy dust* hype is in the first 4 letters of it... DUMB. :idea: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Robert Keeley Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by AMZ-FX I can use a Fender chassis, but you have to rip everything off of it, fill in all the holes and re-drill it. They're just a little bit too squashed. Distances of half a centimeter make a big difference in the way something sounds. It's a science involved with something called circuit constants. What in the heck is he talking about??? -Jack My {censored}ing thoughts EXaCtLy!!! cIRCUIT cONSTANTS BEING SQaUsHeD...... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amanonfire Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by RossCompress My {censored}ing thoughts EXaCtLy!!! cIRCUIT cONSTANTS BEING SQaUsHeD...... ;-) corinthian leather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Gainster Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Really....you can poke fun at him and what he writes....but the amps sound great and resale...well need I say more??? He's doing something a {censored}ton of peps wish they could do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wilbo26 Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 I'm curious about this new fad involving bumping year old threads... Although this one was certainly interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fusionid Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by Wilbo26 I'm curious about this new fad involving bumping year old threads... Although this one was certainly interesting. sorry guilty of charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sonaboy Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by Chriss That's not technically a mangina. His ass is actually on the front of his body. a friend of mine refers to that as simply "Front Butt." i'd say that's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasonfuzz Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 I thought it was confirmed by Dane Cook as an "ass in front" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wilbo26 Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 Originally posted by fusionid sorry guilty of charge I think we can let it slide due to the Mangina content. Always good for everyone's self esteem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PhallOut Posted August 8, 2006 Members Share Posted August 8, 2006 if you cant afford (or find) a dumble look for a train wreck, then when you cant get one of them go for a two rock or a bruno (dumble and trainwreck clones, respectivly). in the end it all comes down to JCA circuits tho. hands down nothing beats a JCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted August 9, 2006 Members Share Posted August 9, 2006 I played through one once for a short period of time. No idea of the year or exact model. I liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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